Resurrection, my players dislike it

[Kdansky]

Well, to make a long story short: One of my PCs has Regeneration with all the fancy stuff. I (GM) am very happy with the character, he is very happy with his character but the other players are not. They either feel jealous or say things like: "Where's the challenge/risk if you can't die?"

 

Now note that rarely anyone ever dies in my campaigns, anyway. That's just the type of game I run. Everyone knows that too (at least they should, I played with them for a long time and we did not have any deaths ever, although I'm pretty good at making it look reeeaaally close).

 

So, what would you do about this? I don't really want to confront them meta, because there is really nothing much I could say. I figured I might want to demonstrate that characters weaknesses. Honestly, the character is pretty powerful in different ways, mostly because he got a neat concept which allowed for so much, and he also produces more background than the other 4 guys summed up which makes me like him and probably be very nice to his suggestions. He does not abuse it, but he builds strong stuff with lots of good choices (VPP and Multiform always helps). The character still has quite a few weak spots: Psychological Limitations are easily triggered, his defenses are below average, his damage output is not very impressive either, he's got horrible EGO scores. I thought I could try to capture him (because they would leave him behind if he got shot since they know he can't die easily) and then extort something ugly from him. The player would not have a problem with that, but do you think that would make the group a bit less annoyed by his Free-Out-Of-Jail-Card?

[BNakagawa]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

There is a player I know whose character construction philosophy can be summed up by the following phrase: "Limitations are for suckers"

 

Almost every character he has designed has no significant limitations. Most of them don't age, don't sleep, don't need to breathe, drink or eat. A large percentage of them regenerate, most of them are immune to most common poisons and diseases.

 

Nobody likes any of his characters. Because of their indifference to human conditions and concerns, they pretty much all come across as flavorless collections of combat and noncombat abilities with no personality or humanity.

 

I don't think your player is anything like the guy I'm thinking of, but there is something about shared peril that binds people together. When one person does not share in the risk of the others, expect a certain amount of alienation.

[Kdansky]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

He's quite the opposite of that. He's the most caring character in the whole group (mainly because he has such a horrible past where he messed up everything and killed so many people, you can fill in the details). He's also one of the deepest characters I have seen up to now, and probably the worst figther in the group.

But yeah, your last sentence describes the problem very well.

 

Any ideas on how to handle that?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

I would say that the problem probably isnt the character, its probably that the player is better than the other players, at some level they feel it, they resent it, and their kvetching about what sounds like an unimportant detail is simply them acting out on their collective inferiority complex passive aggressively.

 

It's something that isnt important enough the player could reasonably claim its 100% essential to his character and thus not subject to change. They think its something you and or the player will relent on to avoid strife, which will give them some measure of satisfaction for a while.

 

Later on, having tasted success, they might start getting bolder with their trammeling of the player until such a time as he gets fed up with them and leaves the group or they feel he has been sufficiently cut down to size.

 

 

Of course, I'm not a psychologist. I don't even play one on TV. But that's what it sounds like to me.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

Well' date=' to make a long story short: One of my PCs has Regeneration with all the fancy stuff. I (GM) am very happy with the character, he is very happy with his character but the other players are not. They either feel jealous or say things like: "Where's the challenge/risk if you can't die?"[/quote']

 

Just because you don't die doesn't mean you can't be defeated. "Dr. Destroyer took over the world, but you're alive." "Mechanon killed every human being on the planet ... well, except you."

 

He's just as easy to knock out as anybody without the regeneration power. He can still be stunned, entangled, mind-controlled. He can still lose, he can still be defeated. The bad guys can still get away. The mayor can still be captured and ransomed.

 

They have nothing to complain about.

[Comic]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

Plus, all resurrection has a loophole.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

OK, I'm not quite sure what's up with your players (though in truth I suspect KS hit the nail on the head)...

 

You've NEVER killed a character in a game before.

 

They don't like the fact that he's hanging a "kill me" sign off his character (in metagame terms, anyway)?

He paid the points for a cool thing. In order for the points spent to have value to the character, they have to come into play. Ergo, he's expecting you to kill him. Probably repeatedly. Sounds like my kinda character, actually (I tend towards low defense damage sponges myself).

 

[ghost-angel]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

If your players think that all challenges are challenges because of the risk of death ... they are very silly and shallow thinking. Seriously.

 

Oddly enough this came up on a thread on RPG.Net (that stayed civil!). The thought was what was the risk of failure if you know you can't die?

 

Well, obviously death isn't the only way to fail a task. You don't need the threat of death to make things exciting. I find the idea that too many roleplayers latch onto this concept "the only challenge is in not dying" really aren't looking at roleplaying, just killing things and taking their stuff.

 

I think KS hit their overall attitude dead on as well.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

One of my first 4th Edition characters had huge defences, regeneration, Aids, etc., but most of it only protected against Body (or otherwise permanent) damage. He was otherwise almost a complete pansy. I made him a little psychotic too; he went back and forth between a bubbly little spitfire who wouldn't shut up and a depressed Marvin-type pessimist who couldn't figure out how to kill himself. It was a challenge finding interesting ways for him to help out the group with his almost non-existent combat and non-combat skills. He DID spend quite a bit of the time unconscious, knocked out either by enemies or friends he annoyed too much. I recall a few memorable incidents of the party using him as a weapon or throwing him into the gears of a mechanism to grind it to a halt. Pretty fun character, all in all. I don't think the other players minded him , though they did roll their eyes a bit at times.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

I also suspect Killer Shrike's analysis is probably correct. And an additional factor might be the very fact that the character they don't like isn't great in combat. They may feel like he doesn't carry his weight in a fight, instead having invested his points in abilities that will selfishly save only him. But they don't want to complain that he's not tough enough in combat, lest they be seen as hack-n-slashers, and they think complaining about his ability to return from death being "unfair" might be taken more sympathetically.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

Well, to make a long story short: One of my PCs has Regeneration with all the fancy stuff. I (GM) am very happy with the character, he is very happy with his character but the other players are not. They either feel jealous or say things like: "Where's the challenge/risk if you can't die?"

 

Now note that rarely anyone ever dies in my campaigns, anyway. That's just the type of game I run. Everyone knows that too (at least they should, I played with them for a long time and we did not have any deaths ever, although I'm pretty good at making it look reeeaaally close).

 

So, what would you do about this? I don't really want to confront them meta, because there is really nothing much I could say. I figured I might want to demonstrate that characters weaknesses. Honestly, the character is pretty powerful in different ways, mostly because he got a neat concept which allowed for so much, and he also produces more background than the other 4 guys summed up which makes me like him and probably be very nice to his suggestions. He does not abuse it, but he builds strong stuff with lots of good choices (VPP and Multiform always helps). The character still has quite a few weak spots: Psychological Limitations are easily triggered, his defenses are below average, his damage output is not very impressive either, he's got horrible EGO scores. I thought I could try to capture him (because they would leave him behind if he got shot since they know he can't die easily) and then extort something ugly from him. The player would not have a problem with that, but do you think that would make the group a bit less annoyed by his Free-Out-Of-Jail-Card?

 

Well, it's a Free-Out-Of-Afterlife-Card, really.

 

I have some ideas/questions which I will now ask.

 

Has this character ever been "left for dead", but later been able to surprise the opponents?

 

Has he ever rescued any of the other characters (or otherwise been instrumental in a plot)?

 

Have you ever had the character face his "Does Not Resurrect Against" condition, so that the other characters could protect him from it?

 

Has this character ever been captured/imprisoned and needed to be rescued because he wouldn't have been able to free himself?

 

Has he ever been turned against the other members (like with Mind Control) so they could do some Player Venting -- "Let him have it full bore! He can take it!"

[Kdansky]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

You guys make some great points. That is why I post things like this in this board I'd rep you all, but I can't

 

On to FAQ:

 

> Has this character ever been "left for dead", but later been able to surprise the opponents?

Nope. He survived when he was thought to be dead (which surprised the opposition later), but that's about it.

 

> Has he ever rescued any of the other characters (or otherwise been instrumental in a plot)?

No, and yes, he is usually rather important. That is also because he is the de-facto group leader. This mostly due to group dynamics between players, but also because it fits the characters. He is also the character with most plot-ties in his backstory. Because he is nearly the only character with a workable backstory...

 

> Have you ever had the character face his "Does Not Resurrect Against" condition, so that the other characters could protect him from it?

No, but I will try to bring that up. Problem is: It's incredibly obscure and rarely any NPC will know of it. Having random thugs use it seems unrealistic.

 

> Has this character ever been captured/imprisoned and needed to be rescued because he wouldn't have been able to free himself?

Well, sort of. He would have gotten kidnapped so someone else in the group killed him off (Mind Control on Thug -> Thug uses Autofire RKA against a KO'd target which does not have persistent resistant defenses -> Very splat) before running. That also answers the last one Weird thing is: This scene is the one that bothers some of the players (the MC-guy had *TON* of fun with it).

 

His Res came up twice until now (5th session), and the second time it was obvious that his "plan" probably won't work out and he might die (alone). So no, it's not a game-breaker at all. But I believe that they (those that criticise) really are afraid of their characters dieing, because they have been very careful in some situations.

 

I would say that the problem probably isnt the character, its probably that the player is better than the other players, at some level they feel it, they resent it, and their kvetching about what sounds like an unimportant detail is simply them acting out on their collective inferiority complex passive aggressively.

 

It's something that isnt important enough the player could reasonably claim its 100% essential to his character and thus not subject to change. They think its something you and or the player will relent on to avoid strife, which will give them some measure of satisfaction for a while.

 

Later on, having tasted success, they might start getting bolder with their trammeling of the player until such a time as he gets fed up with them and leaves the group or they feel he has been sufficiently cut down to size.

Yes, he is quite definitely better at RP. Better not in the sense of "you are great at sticking to concept" but in the sense "this player makes the story go further without sacrificing his concept at all". One of the other players usually picks concepts wich try to swim against the stream, try to block the plot and mess up the group. He's very thourough with it, which means he sticks 100% to his ideas, no matter how bad things will go. Zero compromise usually does not result in better games (contrary to what many seem to believe, I've seen this often enough).

When we both are players (rarely the case, but does come up), I often build my characters around his, because I know that will work out very well. He'll leave me my space to RP, and add something to it which I could not do alone.

 

They don't like the fact that he's hanging a "kill me" sign off his character (in metagame terms, anyway)? He paid the points for a cool thing. In order for the points spent to have value to the character, they have to come into play. Ergo, he's expecting you to kill him. Probably repeatedly.

I think so. He does try suicidal stuff. As expected, when you sink 70 Active Points (due to Extra Time it's only 17 real in the end, but still) into something, you will try to make it come up. He could have bought Teleport and some Armor for that, it would have been more effective in the two cases where it came up.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

Here's what you do.

 

1. Have some minion of an organisation captured, and boast to the team that his organisation has developed a weapon that can even kill 'Mr Unkillable'. it doesn't have to be true, he doesn't have to be right, but everyone then feels that Mr Unkillable can be killed. He's not going to be - no one is in your games, but the perception will shift.

 

2. There is only so much you can do about the character being a decent build - but that shouldn't really matter anyway - what should matter is limelight share. Make a real effort to spotlight each PC in turn (but don't be too obvious about it), including Mr Unkillable.

[Vondy]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

I'm with Killer Shrike and Ghost Angel on this one. Based on your description of both the character and the player the problem is, likely, the other players. It sounds like envy on its way to becoming morose delectation [i.e., schadenfreude or epicaricacy].

 

Also, I agree that if you give in to them they will probably be emboldened. There are a million ways to fail. Not all tension is life-death. And, regeneration and resurrection could lead to a very ugly torture scenario. That's not "death," but it is dramatic.

 

It happened to one of my characters...

[nexus]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

Also, the character can be killed. Resurrection has to have at least one loophole and that's not even getting into things like Drains and Transforms that remove the Power. He's just exceptionally difficult to kill and, as Ninja Scroll shows us, even if your "unkillable" being sealed in tons of solid gold and sunk to the bottom of a river can seriously cramp your style. That's being said, I'm not that fond of totally "unkillable" characters either in fiction or rpgs mainly because the tension and drama of combats are diluted because there almost always staged around the idea of killing the immortal which has been stated to be impossible instead of other goals that might have some story impact.

[Vondy]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

Also' date=' the character can be killed. Resurrection has to have at least one loophole and that's not even getting into things like Drains and Transforms that remove the Power. He's just exceptionally difficult to kill and, as Ninja Scroll shows us, even if your "unkillable" being sealed in tons of solid gold and sunk to the bottom of a river can seriously cramp your style. That's being said, I'm not that fond of totally "unkillable" characters either in fiction or rpgs mainly because the tension and drama of combats are diluted because there almost always staged around the idea of killing the immortal which has been stated to be impossible instead of other goals that might have some story impact.[/quote']

 

Of course, "I can't kill you so I'll kill everyone you love..." is always an option.

[nexus]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

Of course' date=' "I can't kill you so I'll kill everyone you love..." is always an option. [/quote']

 

Of course, there are ways to challenge an "unkillable" character but it becomes something like other "I win" powers. Eventually for me, it start to get a little strained for it to always happen and I'd also prefer the "battles" with no such consequences on the table be summarized because they're kind of pointless after the first one or two "show off" battles

 

In an rpg the problem with alternative consequences. can be the Player really doesn't care if some NPCs die or the character suffers. His PC is still in play and can always come to finish what he started. It doesn't even matter than the character experiences agonizing pain. That's not every Player with an "unkillable" character but, IME, it happens so much that I just prefer to avoid them if possible.

 

That's just my preference not a declaration.

[nexus]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

Kdansky, how do you (or would you) handle a player introducing a new character to replace one that was killed when it comes accumulated experience?

[pinecone]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

I would say that the problem probably isnt the character, its probably that the player is better than the other players, at some level they feel it, they resent it, and their kvetching about what sounds like an unimportant detail is simply them acting out on their collective inferiority complex passive aggressively.

 

It's something that isnt important enough the player could reasonably claim its 100% essential to his character and thus not subject to change. They think its something you and or the player will relent on to avoid strife, which will give them some measure of satisfaction for a while.

 

Later on, having tasted success, they might start getting bolder with their trammeling of the player until such a time as he gets fed up with them and leaves the group or they feel he has been sufficiently cut down to size.

 

 

Of course, I'm not a psychologist. I don't even play one on TV. But that's what it sounds like to me.

 

Sounds pretty close to true...sad, but very likely...

[caris]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

Well, to make a long story short: One of my PCs has Regeneration with all the fancy stuff. I (GM) am very happy with the character, he is very happy with his character but the other players are not. They either feel jealous or say things like: "Where's the challenge/risk if you can't die?"

 

Now note that rarely anyone ever dies in my campaigns, anyway. That's just the type of game I run. Everyone knows that too (at least they should, I played with them for a long time and we did not have any deaths ever, although I'm pretty good at making it look reeeaaally close).

 

So, what would you do about this? I don't really want to confront them meta, because there is really nothing much I could say. I figured I might want to demonstrate that characters weaknesses. Honestly, the character is pretty powerful in different ways, mostly because he got a neat concept which allowed for so much, and he also produces more background than the other 4 guys summed up which makes me like him and probably be very nice to his suggestions. He does not abuse it, but he builds strong stuff with lots of good choices (VPP and Multiform always helps). The character still has quite a few weak spots: Psychological Limitations are easily triggered, his defenses are below average, his damage output is not very impressive either, he's got horrible EGO scores. I thought I could try to capture him (because they would leave him behind if he got shot since they know he can't die easily) and then extort something ugly from him. The player would not have a problem with that, but do you think that would make the group a bit less annoyed by his Free-Out-Of-Jail-Card?

 

Why don’t you want to confront them Meta? Part of addressing something on the meta level is to get the information so you can get a good idea of the problem.

 

From your post I would say what you are missing is a clear idea of what the problem is. You know the other players have a problem with the other character and this resurrection ability, but you don’t seem to understand why it is bothering the other players so much.

 

I do not want to come off as being harsh, but from your posts, I am getting the feeling that you like what player with the regenerating character brings to the table. You posts seem to indicate that you give this player somewhat favored status. Do you let this player buy things that you wouldn’t let the other players have?

 

Is it possible that the other players are picking up the same vibe that I described? You’ve stated that he is group leader, and he has the most ties to the plot. Maybe they perceive his character as the star of the game and they are only his side kicks.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

Idea for a plot: A villain develops an anti-regeneration agent that is slipped to Mr. Weeble in the course of a minor firefight where he takes a minor amount of BODY. But later, when the player expects the BODY to be back to full -- it isn't.

 

At that point, he may want to (for the first time) seek conventional medical help (possibly from teammates), and continue to do so until the cause of his condition is found & thwarted.

 

The upside is that it can shift more of the perceived group power to the other players, the downside is that Mr. Weeble might become integral to the plot.

 

My questions earlier, and your answers, make me think that the sour grapes might in part be from perceived "second stringer" status in the plots, and getting less limelight time than Mr. Weeble.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

Take the other players to the side and explain to them that you never kill PCs anyway, so the character in question spent a bunch of points on something that he'll never even be able to use. That ought to make them feel better. Maybe they'll even take pity on the poor dude and help give him an opportunity to use his power. LOL.

[Greywind]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

Just because character death hasn't happened, doesn't mean that it never will.

 

I never went out of my way to kill a player's character, but, unfortunately, it has happened. Usually due to the stupidity, er... misguided notions of heroism, on the part of the player.

[Kdansky]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

Battles: They (nearly) never run into battles where the only target is: "Get Out Alive", but instead, they have some other targets, like "Get the McGuffin" or "Safe The Hostages". There, survival is not the only goal. By the way, they screwed up one of those today

 

From your post I would say what you are missing is a clear idea of what the problem is. You know the other players have a problem with the other character and this resurrection ability, but you don’t seem to understand why it is bothering the other players so much.

I think I uncovered that today (game went very well, btw): His ressurect allows him to take bigger risks and therefore taking up a lot of spotlight. I took that into consideration while planning and built some traps/monsters in a way that would be impossible for him to bypass solo (which he still tried and then had to jump out of a window to not get slaughtered). Him being able to do solo-missions (nearly) without risk bugs people, which I can understand.

 

How do you (or would you) handle a player introducing a new character to replace one that was killed when it comes accumulated experience?

They may have as many points as their character had when he/she/it died. Technically, that is a point against ressurection

 

Why don’t you want to confront them Meta? Part of addressing something on the meta level is to get the information so you can get a good idea of the problem.

Since I have not gotten the complaint in person but rather around three corners, I did not think that very practical. But I probably will do that. It is the right choice after all.

 

I do not want to come off as being harsh, but from your posts, I am getting the feeling that you like what player with the regenerating character brings to the table. You posts seem to indicate that you give this player somewhat favored status. Do you let this player buy things that you wouldn’t let the other players have?

Yes, I do like what he brings to the table. I try to not to favour him, but when I write character background into my story, the PC with the best/most/longest backstory usually gets the most, which is him. But he won't get stronger stuff than the others. In fact, I would say that they already have more "power" (significantly higher AP Attack and Defenses, more point-effective builds, huge VPP, mental powers, and so on). Also a problem: He knows the rules well, the others don't. What he lacks in d6's, he makes up with a well-placed haymaker (happened today, poor mook).

 

What I mean with "best" backstory: Imagine two stories, A and B. A goes like this: "Jane was always blamed for the death of her mother during birth by her father. Jane got abused by her elder siblings and ran away when she was very young to grow up at a local, very old witch. When she was older, she left home to see the world." And B is: "John discovered he could use some magic and took some lessons in witchery. He used his charm to sleep with all the pretty girls in town, but when things with one of the daughters of the local mayor got serious, he felt that he wanted more freedom and ran away to see the world, leaving his fiance behind."

Both stories are rather clicheed (I toned A down and B up, and those stories are the same players in a completely different game), but B is still way more practical. Having the fiancee turn up is fun, and even though the first story had way more characters in it, they all are very boring (or hard to explain) to bring in as NPCs. He's good at the second type of story. And his new backstory has so many hooks (two pages of text with one hook every three lines), I don't even know where to start.

 

 

Maybe they perceive his character as the star of the game and they are only his side kicks.

That may be possible, but is very hard to handle for me, since they create their group dynamic themselves. I managed to have a good scene for everyone today. The background-issue increases this problem.

 

Idea for a plot: A villain develops an anti-regeneration agent that is slipped to Mr. Weeble in the course of a minor firefight where he takes a minor amount of BODY. But later, when the player expects the BODY to be back to full -- it isn't.

Interesting, problem is (as you said) that this makes him even more integral to the plot, something I really don't want to do. I am planning to do something else: One of the other players asked me today if he could have some regeneration (or something along those lines), so his character could also take more risks. Why not?

He also took quite a lot of BODY today and since the PC regenerates so slowly (1 per 20 minutes) he got quite a bit of healing from his team mates.

 

Just because character death hasn't happened, doesn't mean that it never will.

Definitely. I warn players if they are about to do something really stupid (rarely happens anyway). I will fudge some dice if they would die to an unlucky hit in a random battle. But if they have a phase to abort with and declare that They Will Take It On The Chest against the haymakering Nazi Death Ray Robot with the Ultimate Killer Nuke of Evil, well, here's your damage roll.

 

Thanks guys

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Resurrection, my players dislike it

 

I think I uncovered that today (game went very well' date=' btw): His ressurect allows him to take bigger risks and therefore taking up a lot of spotlight. I took that into consideration while planning and built some traps/monsters in a way that would be impossible for him to bypass solo (which he still tried and then had to jump out of a window to not get slaughtered). Him being able to do solo-missions (nearly) without risk bugs people, which I can understand.[/quote']

 

If he's hogging spotlight time with solo flights, one cure (other than talking to the player) would be to have the character get killed/captured/trapped and removed from the action for a period of time. If he's running off alone to get more spotlight time and the result is less spotlight time, the problem should go away.