How to present combat to new players

[RamrodTheWizard]

My friend and I recently tried to introduce HERO to our usual gaming group, who quickly understood most of the major concepts and had a good time with character creation. We decided to run a mini-campaign to test it out and play was a whole lot of fun, until we got to combat. While the SPD chart and 1/2d6 damage rolls were quickly understood, the actual process of rolling to hit was what slowed them down. I tried to explain it to them, but apparently I was speaking nonsense. I can't really expect them to read the entire rulebook, so how can I present combat more easily? Is there anything I can do as a GM?

[sinanju]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

My friend and I recently tried to introduce HERO to our usual gaming group' date=' who quickly understood most of the major concepts and had a good time with character creation. We decided to run a mini-campaign to test it out and play was a whole lot of fun, until we got to combat. While the SPD chart and 1/2d6 damage rolls were quickly understood, the actual process of rolling to hit was what slowed them down. I tried to explain it to them, but apparently I was speaking nonsense. I can't really expect them to read the entire rulebook, so how can I present combat more easily?[/quote']

 

Make sure that you, the GM, have complete character sheets for all the player characters as well as the NPCs. Then YOU make the all the die rolls; let the player simply describe what their characters are (attempting) to do. If they hit, they can roll the dice for damage, but otherwise, you minimize the need for them to understand the rules early on.

 

As the game progresses, you can explain how the rules for various things work and allow the players to make more of their own die rolls.

 

Alternatively, give the PLAYERS a set of character sheets and game out a simple demo combat, using whatever rules you want to employ (range, hit location, whatever). Once they understand how the system works, then you can get back into the actual game.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

Sidekick is your friend.

 

If that's not available their may be a free doc with the basics somewhere (I couldn't find it).

 

These links to articles from Killer Shrike's site might help as well.

 

Tactical Principles for HERO

3d6 Bell Curve

[RamrodTheWizard]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

Thanks! I'm always amazed by the quick responses here.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

If you're just talking about laying out whether or not someone can hit, you may want to do this:

 

Have everyone, individually, get out a 7 square line, and on that line, write down the following:

 

8 9 10 11 12 13 14; eleven is in the middle, because it's the most common roll, then the next 3 up and 3 down.

 

Below the 11, each player writes THEIR OWN OCV. Assuming an OCV of 6, they then add one, or deduct one. This way, they can look down at the chart and know (fairly instantly, or with some additional math if they roll real well) what DCV they hit. It's a visualization of the same mechanic we use in our game; 11 means you hit a DCV equal to your OCV. Each adjustment up or down from 11 increases or decreases that, followed by any additional modifiers.

 

It's a really long way to say, "Okay guys, draw a chart, and I'll walk you through it from there. After you draw the chart, we'll take a few minutes to do some test rolls, and include some modifiers just to be on the safe side (such as Dodge, Block, and so on)."

 

Hope that helps.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

Just use a dice roller! The one that comes with Hero Designer is nice. Boy, does it speed up play.

 

If they stick with Champs, then over time you can introduce the dice back and slowly get their comprehension up.

 

But in the beginning, just get them playing. Let them move around things like levels and the like, but I wouldn't waste time on calculations...it can be off putting.

[Karmakaze]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

You will want to keep a combat chart with everyone's OCV and DCV in general, even for experienced players.

 

I know a lot of GMs like to keep their NPC stats secret, but would you be comfortable saying "OK - roll to hit a DCV of 6, that'll be a 10 or less..." whenever you get to that part of the combat? Assuming your mental arithmetic is fast enough, the extra dozen words shouldn't slow things down much. After a few combats, they should get used to the idea that a higher target DCV makes for a more difficult (lower) to hit roll. Once that sinks in, you can bring up the point that the attackers OCV also changes the difficulty of the roll.

 

Alternately, isn't the concept somewhat similar to D&D's THAC0? (I'm not 100% sure because I am not a D&D player). Could you use that as a launching point?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

You will want to keep a combat chart with everyone's OCV and DCV in general, even for experienced players.

 

I know a lot of GMs like to keep their NPC stats secret, but would you be comfortable saying "OK - roll to hit a DCV of 6, that'll be a 10 or less..." whenever you get to that part of the combat? Assuming your mental arithmetic is fast enough, the extra dozen words shouldn't slow things down much. After a few combats, they should get used to the idea that a higher target DCV makes for a more difficult (lower) to hit roll. Once that sinks in, you can bring up the point that the attackers OCV also changes the difficulty of the roll.

 

Alternately, isn't the concept somewhat similar to D&D's THAC0? (I'm not 100% sure because I am not a D&D player). Could you use that as a launching point?

 

It is very similar, actually; THAC0 was "To Hit Armor Class 0," and began at '20,' with the assumption that most 0th to 1st level creatures had an AC of 10-7 or so. It's why Magic Missile was so important in 2nd Edition; because Wizards dropped THAC0 every... 3 levels or so. Rogues & Priests had different progressions (Priests were 2 pts/3 levels or some such, and rogues were 1/2). Only Fighters went up at a straight 1:1.

 

Tragically, the only times we improved our chances to hit were when we either had an enchantment or an enchanted weapon. Of, how happy was I when Feats were introduced? *sniff*

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

Sidekick is your friend.

 

If that's not available their may be a free doc with the basics somewhere (I couldn't find it).

 

On this webpage from the "Free Stuff" section of this website, you can download a two-page PDF summarizing all the steps in the combat sequence, which your players can study and keep handy as a reference.

 

I also recommend this forum thread which includes detailed narrative examples of HERO combat, for both "heroic" and "superheroic" play. Reading these may make more sense to your players than just dry mechanical notes.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

Step 1: Ignore the formula presented in the rules.

 

Step 2: Find the alternate formula, it will look like this:

 

11 + OCV - 3D6 = DCV Hit.

 

If your DEX is 12 your OCV is 4.

 

11 + 4 - 3D6. If you roll a 9 you hit 15-9 = DCV 6.

 

Skill Levels, Range Penalties, and any other modifiers can be added or subtracted Directly from that number.

 

If you have 2 Combat Skill Levels you bump it up to a DCV 8 Hit. If you have a -4 Range Penalty you subtract that down to a DCV 4 Hit.

 

You hit that DCV and any DCV Lower than that. That make more sense?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

If you're just talking about laying out whether or not someone can hit, you may want to do this:

 

Have everyone, individually, get out a 7 square line, and on that line, write down the following:

 

8 9 10 11 12 13 14; eleven is in the middle, because it's the most common roll, then the next 3 up and 3 down.

 

Below the 11, each player writes THEIR OWN OCV. Assuming an OCV of 6, they then add one, or deduct one. This way, they can look down at the chart and know (fairly instantly, or with some additional math if they roll real well) what DCV they hit. It's a visualization of the same mechanic we use in our game; 11 means you hit a DCV equal to your OCV. Each adjustment up or down from 11 increases or decreases that, followed by any additional modifiers.

 

It's a really long way to say, "Okay guys, draw a chart, and I'll walk you through it from there. After you draw the chart, we'll take a few minutes to do some test rolls, and include some modifiers just to be on the safe side (such as Dodge, Block, and so on)."

 

Hope that helps.

 

Holy crap, that's so ridiculously easy I might start doing that to my own characters. Why has this never occurred to me?

[Thia Halmades]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

Holy crap' date=' that's so ridiculously easy I might start doing that to my own characters. Why has this never occurred to me?[/quote']

 

Because we tend to overcomplicate things by our very nature. That's what I'm here for.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

My friend and I recently tried to introduce HERO to our usual gaming group' date=' who quickly understood most of the major concepts and had a good time with character creation. We decided to run a mini-campaign to test it out and play was a whole lot of fun, until we got to combat. While the SPD chart and 1/2d6 damage rolls were quickly understood, the actual process of rolling to hit was what slowed them down. I tried to explain it to them, but apparently I was speaking nonsense. I can't really expect them to read the entire rulebook, so how can I present combat more easily? Is there anything I can do as a GM?[/quote']

 

This is easy.

 

Have everyone record on their sheet their characters base "To hit" (call it accuracy or whatever) number, which would be their base OCV+11. Apply bonuses, then subtract penalties yourself (including the villians DCV) and have the players roll. If they like knowing what number they need to hit, simply tell them.

If they want to know how you arrived to that number, thats when you tell them they need to familiarize themselves with the combat rules if they want to figure that out. Eventually, the will become familiar. Though be warned, some players simply don't like such complex systems, no matter how you break it down to them. I have a friend who I've been playing with for years and he still has no idea how HERO functions mechanically. He can barely get through character creation.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

What I do simplifies things even further. Next to each Characteristic (under "Roll") you simply record CHAR/5. Under OCV and DCV you record Dex/3 as usual. Then I use a roll-high method where you just add your characteristic bonus or OCV to 3d6.

 

That's the short version. For the long version, see my Flipped Die Rolls thread.

[archermoo]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

What I do simplifies things even further. Next to each Characteristic (under "Roll") you simply record CHAR/5. Under OCV and DCV you record Dex/3 as usual. Then I use a roll-high method where you just add your characteristic bonus or OCV to 3d6.

 

That's the short version. For the long version, see my Flipped Die Rolls thread.

 

Doesn't sound simplified. Sounds overcomplicated.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

Doesn't sound simplified. Sounds overcomplicated.

 

It does? It seems a bit simpler for new players to me. All they have is a number for each Characteristic, Skill, and OCV that they add to their roll. Maybe the CHANGE sounds complicated for people used to the existing system, but if you look at the end result I think it is about the same level of complexity and has the benefit of being slightly easier for new players to grasp (especially if they have some kind of D20 background, but either way really).

[teh bunneh]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

When I run convention and demo games, I start by doing the basic math for them behind the scenes (23 DEX means a CV of 8. 8 + 11 = 19). When the game starts, I tell my players "Your OCV is 19. Roll 3d6 and tell me how much you make it by."

 

So if my player rolls a 13, he says "I made it by 6!" (or in Hero terms, he hit DCV 6). I let him know if he hit or not. Pretty much no effort involved for the players.

[archermoo]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

It does? It seems a bit simpler for new players to me. All they have is a number for each Characteristic' date=' Skill, and OCV that they add to their roll. Maybe the CHANGE sounds complicated for people used to the existing system, but if you look at the end result I think it is about the same level of complexity and has the benefit of being slightly easier for new players to grasp (especially if they have some kind of D20 background, but either way really).[/quote']

 

I've heard a lot of people claim that rolling high is "easier". In 25+ years of playing Hero I've never actually played with anyone who had a problem grasping the concept of rolling low.

[Silbeg]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

I've heard a lot of people claim that rolling high is "easier". In 25+ years of playing Hero I've never actually played with anyone who had a problem grasping the concept of rolling low.

Gotta agree with that. This includes at least 7 different games run at Con of the North, and many other games.

 

The one thing that helped the most over the years was the 11 +OCV - 3d6 = DCV hit formula. That helps more people than anything.

 

If I were to simplify more, I would use teh bunneh's idea:

When I run convention and demo games, I start by doing the basic math for them behind the scenes (23 DEX means a CV of 8. 8 + 11 = 19). When the game starts, I tell my players "Your OCV is 19. Roll 3d6 and tell me how much you make it by."

 

Lately, I have added this to the character sheets in my game, and should probably add it to the convention sheets I am working on.

 

As for other learning curve details, I would say keep the characters simple, adding in extra powers/maneuvers as the players get more savvy.

[pinecone]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

At least to start I often do the math for them..."Roll to hit" "I got a 12!" "OK you missed, but only by a teeny bit" (He needed an 11) or "Ok, you missed, man it was like you were moving in slow motion, and he was normal speed" (He needed an 8)

 

After they "grok" the other stuff most start getting how to roll to hit...high roll, low roll , subtract, they can use any way they like...

 

"At an 11, you hit your own CV, every one higher is a CV (DCV) lower, each lower is a CV higher."

 

"So if you have OCV 8 an 11 hits an 8, a 10 hits a 9" and they usually need no more.

 

If you have a mathaphobic, just keep doing the calc's for them....

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

At least to start I often do the math for them..."Roll to hit" "I got a 12!" "OK you missed, but only by a teeny bit" (He needed an 11) or "Ok, you missed, man it was like you were moving in slow motion, and he was normal speed" (He needed an 8)

 

After they "grok" the other stuff most start getting how to roll to hit...high roll, low roll , subtract, they can use any way they like...

 

"At an 11, you hit your own CV, every one higher is a CV (DCV) lower, each lower is a CV higher."

 

"So if you have OCV 8 an 11 hits an 8, a 10 hits a 9" and they usually need no more.

 

If you have a mathaphobic, just keep doing the calc's for them....

 

Very nice way of doing it.

 

I'm trying to get my girlfriend back into HERO after her being out of the HERO-loop for about 15 years. I'll try this method.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

Ramrod, is this stuff helping you out? Any clarifications or further advice you need?

[Fearghus]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

My friend and I recently tried to introduce HERO to our usual gaming group' date=' who quickly understood most of the major concepts and had a good time with character creation. We decided to run a mini-campaign to test it out and play was a whole lot of fun, until we got to combat. While the SPD chart and 1/2d6 damage rolls were quickly understood, the actual process of rolling to hit was what slowed them down. I tried to explain it to them, but apparently I was speaking nonsense. I can't really expect them to read the entire rulebook, so how can I present combat more easily? Is there anything I can do as a GM?[/quote']

 

 

Explain it just like THAC0 in 2nd Ed D&D. you have to roll 11 minus the defenders DCV or less. Roll 3d6 subtract your OCV and compair the results.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

I usually write the formula to hit on the blackboard (I usually game in classrooms) and then show the algebra reworking the formula to the Your OCV + (11-roll) = DCV you hit form of the formula (since that's how I use it in my head)

[Fearghus]

Re: How to present combat to new players

 

This is easy.

 

I have a friend who I've been playing with for years and he still has no idea how HERO functions mechanically. He can barely get through character creation.

 

I don't see how the math for hero system is any more difficult than the math for any other system. Maybe when it comes to character creation when you have to multiply fraction I can see how it might get a little more complicated but it's still only grade school level math.