Darren Watts Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 So, we've had "Shades of Black" up for a bit more than a week now, and to be honest, despite rave reviews from those who do have it, sales so far have been pretty disappointing. As the first release in what we hope will become a new line for us, that's a matter of some concern. So, let's open up the discussion. Why haven't you bought this product? Not interested in modules? Not interested in this particular module, but might be in others? Not interested in PDFs at all? Plan to get it but don't have any cash? Let us know the scoop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Speaking only for myself In my case, cash flow is the major concern. I'm having to space it out. I just recently FINALLY got Terran Empire... in short, it looks like I'll be a few months behind when it comes to picking up products. I really DO want the product, but life keeps delaying my delights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magmarock Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 PDF is expensive to printout. I'll be waiting for "Shades of Black" to come out in print. I like to have the entire product in hand for reference during games. I subscribed to Digital Hero and have had the same problem with it. I doubt I'll resubscribe since I didn't get much use from last year's issues. If I owned a laptop, it might be a different story. Don't get me wrong, the content was great, but it's difficult for me to get it from the computer to my gaming table and, like I mentioned before, expensive to printout. Ultimately, I prefer printed material. Mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beetle Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 It sounds great, and I've always been a fan of Black Paladin (well, maybe "fan" isn't the right word). But my day-to-day internet access comes from work. So if buy a download, I have to wait until I have a friend willing to let me hijack his computer. Second is that since I don't GM that much, I'm not sure how much use it would be. Also, I need to pay for the new Angel and Xena DVDs first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjd59 Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 For me it's also a cash flow issue at the moment. I do plan on getting it within the next two to three weeks along with a couple of the latest Champions book releases. rjd59 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 If I may suggest to any fellow players? Perhaps someone who HAS purchased it and had time to digest it fully might post a detailed and honest review to RPGnet? That way more would at least know it is availible (not everyone who plays Champions may actually be a regular on these boards), and could decide for themselves if it is worth purchasing. From what I hear, it most assuredly is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 How do sales from the website store compare to retail outlets? Could it be that there is no "shelf space" so to speak? Do any other game companies sell pdf products on disk at brick and mortar stores? If so, how do they sell? I have rarely bought electronic documents (though I do subscribe to Digital Hero and Pyramid). Mostly for the reasons listed by others. The biggest plus for a pdf for me would be searchability. I bought the 4th edition rules on pdf so that I could bookmark and cross-reference the snot out of it. Keith "snot?" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Adobe Acrobat Reader has been awfully persnickety for me. I'm also not well versed in the art of PayPal, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Watts Posted September 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Re: PDF Originally posted by Magmarock is expensive to printout. I'll be waiting for "Shades of Black" to come out in print. I like to have the entire product in hand for reference during games. Mags Got the message. However, to be clear, you should be aware that it's pretty unlikely that SoB will ever come out in print, especially if nobody buys it as a PDF. "Hero Plus" is a PDF, E-book only line, designed for us to be able to provide products that can't justify hard-copy production. Modules historically have not sold well enough for a company like Hero to be able to afford to make them. dw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Watts Posted September 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Originally posted by keithcurtis > How do sales from the website store compare to retail outlets? Traditionally, much fewer, perhaps by a factor of ten. Fortunately, most of the costs are much lower, too. > Could it be that there is no "shelf space" so to speak? Do any other game companies sell pdf products on disk at brick and mortar stores? If so, how do they sell? All of that is factored into our sales predictions. We expect a PDF-only product to move much fewer units than a hard book. However, SoB so far is selling even fewer than we had conservatively guessed. >I have rarely bought electronic documents (though I do subscribe to Digital Hero and Pyramid). Mostly for the reasons listed by others. So, what, if anything, can we do to change that? If there's nothing we can offer to make our most die-hard fans try the line, we probably shouldn't be dedicating any resources to it. We've had fans tell us they want these products- were you all kidding? ;)dw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Originally posted by Darren Watts Originally posted by keithcurtis > How do sales from the website store compare to retail outlets? Traditionally, much fewer, perhaps by a factor of ten. Fortunately, most of the costs are much lower, too. > Could it be that there is no "shelf space" so to speak? Do any other game companies sell pdf products on disk at brick and mortar stores? If so, how do they sell? All of that is factored into our sales predictions. We expect a PDF-only product to move much fewer units than a hard book. However, SoB so far is selling even fewer than we had conservatively guessed. >I have rarely bought electronic documents (though I do subscribe to Digital Hero and Pyramid). Mostly for the reasons listed by others. So, what, if anything, can we do to change that? If there's nothing we can offer to make our most die-hard fans try the line, we probably shouldn't be dedicating any resources to it. We've had fans tell us they want these products- were you all kidding? ;)dw It may be a timing issue. 5th Edition has been out for a while, some people probably "overloaded" on Hero and are resting up for the next round, and 3.5 from that "other company" came out recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadeFox Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 To be frank, I have worked many years in the hobby/gaming retail biz, and for a 69 page e-book $12 is an outrageous price. A 70 page book or module in print would prolly cost about $15 nowadays. So we save $3 and inherit all the hassle of having to either game at our computer, own a laptop, or pay the $3 ourselves to get it printed out, sans binding. Not too mention maneuvering through an adobe document is clunky at best, without a lot of bookmarking. I do however also feel that the writers and producers deserve ample compensation for their efforts, but in the case of a lot of Hero's e-merchandise, it feels terribly overpriced. I guess you need to figure out whether your sell twice as many at $6 then you are at $12, then you'd still make what your looking too. Personally, I am inclined to think you would. Just my 2 cents, availible for downloand as a .pdf from Hero Games for $1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 I agree with Rade Fox. I like the villains, and I'll probably buy it eventually, but I'm a bit put off by the price considering I'll have to print it myself. $6 and I would have snapped it up by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyGuardian Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Well it did get posted late august.... most folks are on vacation or moving back to school or ... etc. I would bet it will pick up in a few weeks. And - I bought a copy. It looks pretty darn good. I'll post a review once I read through it. At first glance, Lots of nice maps and a solid plotline. as far as reading pdf at the gaming table... It might help if the pdf you produced was tagged so Adobe for Palm could convert it cleanly so it can be read on a PDA. It worked pretty well for the few things I converted but it was far from flawless. - PDA much easier to carry with game books etc. - Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Re: Off to a slow start... Originally posted by Darren Watts So, we've had "Shades of Black" up for a bit more than a week now, and to be honest, despite rave reviews from those who do have it, sales so far have been pretty disappointing. As the first release in what we hope will become a new line for us, that's a matter of some concern. So, let's open up the discussion. Why haven't you bought this product? Not interested in modules? Not interested in this particular module, but might be in others? Not interested in PDFs at all? Plan to get it but don't have any cash? Let us know the scoop! I bought it, but I have to agree with the comments made here about the printing hassle. I don't, and won't, game at the computer. I would much rather have the product in hard copy format. Darren, since we're laying our cards on the table, what would this product cost if it were in hard copy? Hero books tend to be expensive - not because they are overpriced, but because they are large. I find them a great value, but if I weren't familiar with the quality, I'd think twice about shelling out the $$ - especially sight unseen! I suspect we're looking at a $18 to $20 product bound (in your Yankee $$ of course; considerably more in Canadian FunnyMoney ) I'm considering Digital Hero, but I sure miss the old PRINTED Adventurers' Club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 $12! for a 69 page E-Book? Mr. Watts, I believe that is your answer. That is just too much and it is hard to believe that the price was arrived at by need to cover expenses except through some abstract opportunity cost mumbo jumbo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 I agree with RadeFox and Agent X; I feel it's just too expensive, especially when like many I don't use the Champions Universe anyway. $12 for a "silicon copy" of a module when real tomes like TUV, CKC or UMA cost $25 just doesn't seem like it provides comparable value. In general I dislike (Read: Detest) PDF anyway; I'd much rather have such material as a text file in Word. If it was $7 or $8, I'd seriously consider it. $12? No way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Cash flow here, I will probably pick it up when I get student loans, but that is more a matter of wanting to support you guys than anythingelse (and having a LOT of extra money). I actualy like E-Books, and I do use them, but I do think that 12 is a little high for a e-book adventure, a price of 6 (and I think pricing it at 5.95 would do better than even 6) would be much easier for me to handle on a monthly basis and more appropriate for this type of product IMHO But of course this is all just my thoughts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 Admitedly Originally posted by Trebuchet If it was $7 or $8, I'd seriously consider it. If it had been at that rate, I probably would have bumped it up on my 'get now instead of later' schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted September 3, 2003 Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 One other thing to consider: Do not give modules out to the DH crew for playtesting, the fact that I got a preview of it and Champions Battlegrounds put both items on my wait till I have extra money, instead of scrounge for money lists... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Watts Posted September 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 Okay, several people seem to think it's the price. Fair enough, we're willing to look at the pricing model. Would you be more interested in a book of similar size and general quality, but with considerably less art, for $8 or $9? At that price, we're more competitive with the small D20 publishers who currently dominate the PDF sites. On the other hand, quality artists and writers don't work at those prices. There's a reason those books are as cheap as they are. We really can't afford to put out any book for $6, and even if we did sell twice or even three times as many for half the price we're still not coming close to paying the artists and writer involved. dw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechnoViking Posted September 3, 2003 Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 I got three reason why I did not purchase Shade of Black. 1. Cash flow this month (August always bites money-wise for me) 2. No local interest in Champions, but some for Fantasy Hero. SO focusing gaming time there. 3. DOJ inc decusion not to include stats for previous published characters in adventures. I strongly feel that adventures supplements should be self-contained. SoB and Battleground both have this problem. I understand that you don't want to kill sales of books like CKC or CU, but a stat block (minus any background) would help. I rant further about this here. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted September 3, 2003 Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 Good writing and less art (though hopefully still high quality art) for $8 or so would make more sense for a PDF product. I like good art, and I'll pay for it in a bound book; My wife and I purchased White Wold line products almsot as much for Bradstreet's art as for anything else. But a PDF book isn't set up for me to appreciate the art; It's just adding to my print que. I do subscribe to Digital Hero, but not for the art. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Watts Posted September 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 Originally posted by JmOz One other thing to consider: Do not give modules out to the DH crew for playtesting, the fact that I got a preview of it and Champions Battlegrounds put both items on my wait till I have extra money, instead of scrounge for money lists... Is this actually the case? I'd hate to think people who are fans enough of our product to want to playtest for us were choosing then not to help us stick around as a company. That puts us in the position of having to choose between playtesting publicly (and therefore having better product) and making a living financially. I certainly understand and sympathize with not having enough money to support your hobby to the extent you'd like to. But if you're really saying you would have bought the product if you hadn't had the opportunity to playtest it, well, that means we'd need to reevaluate how we do things. dw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadeFox Posted September 3, 2003 Report Share Posted September 3, 2003 I'm confused on how you couldn't pay the artist's and writers at $6, even you sold 3x as many downloads. Are you paying them per copy you sell (some sort of royalties)?? I have a friend who writes freelance for SJ games and a few others, and as far as I know, most game companies buy stuff outright. is Hero different?? If your buying stuff outright, then saying you cant recoup expenditures even selling 3x as many copies for 1/2 the price doesn't compute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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