Off to a slow start...

[ChuckB]

Personally:

 

1- Not interested in E-Books

 

2- I've purchased most of the other DOJ products and I'm pacing myself.

 

Another factor that hasn't come up yet is that perhaps the sales are sluggish due to the fact that it's summer and everyone's on vacation.

 

Perhaps sales will pick up when everyone goes back to their job and can download SOB on their work computers ?

 

Might just be a temporary seasonal lag. How're sales from overseas ?

[KA.]

Okay, I just found this thread and feel the need to speak up!

 

1) PDF Format:

I am no fan of PDF's. I find them annoying to read and slow to download.

However, I am much LESS of a fan of Hero NEVER PUBLISHING ANOTHER MODULE!

We are not privy to the financial realities, but I am pretty sure that the DOJ investors

could have found a better place to put their cash if they were trying to get rich.

So, if they say that it is not currently feasible to print modules, I can believe them without any suspicion.

That being the case, and since I would like to see modules published (and perhaps, someday, try to GET one published),

I am willing to accept PDF's.

 

2) Art:

I like a pretty picture as much as the next guy, but I don't really see them as necessary for the PDF format,

especially if excluding them would help to lower the price.

Since many people do not want to take the time/expense to print the PDF's anyway, it seems that the interior art/cover art, is something that the purchaser is likely to look at once, and pass over from then on. While the maps are essential, other art seems to be a costly option.

 

3) Cost:

I don't see how you can reasonably compare any product from DOJ with a product from other, larger, companies.

They have ways to save costs, and a guarantee of higher volume, that makes comparison unfair.

That does not mean that every consumer does not have the right to look at any product and say, "I don't think this is worth the cost." (but if the only standard is word count vs. price, then the only printed matter sold would be the Sunday newspaper.)

 

BUT!

 

I can also see that people who really want printed modules, might be more likely to "settle" for PDF's if the price is low enough.

Any way to do that, including paying the writers a bit less, or reducing the art, seems like a good idea.

 

4) Playtesting:

I don't think that playtesting is causing people not to buy products. The only way I can imagine not buying something that I playtested, is if I was unhappy with the product itself. I don't think DOJ is looking for unsatisfied customers, so they wouldn't miss those sales anyway.

 

5) Questions/Conclusions/Suggestions:

 

A) Is it possible to move beyond the PDF format?

If all that a module contains is text and maps, is it possible to zip it as .txt and .jpeg files?

That would get us around all the Adobe complaints, and possibly lead to faster downloads.

(PDF files always seem like resource hogs to me.)

 

Are there ways to allow for "Non Profit" modules?

For example, could some space be set aside for fans to create and post their own modules? (perhaps in the "Free Stuff" section)

If DOJ was not charging for them, it seems like there would be fewer complaints about download times, etc., and the cost would be minimal.

 

I am not talking about DOJ "editing" them, or even "packaging" them as PDF's,

just allocating the space and figuring out some way to get the right text with the right maps.

You could even require that the files had to be zipped together in advance.

 

On the plus side for DOJ, after the "demand" for material is created, there might be a higher level of interest in "professional" modules.

 

You could also require that all the characters involved had to be original, and that the authors were giving up all rights to them by posting them on your board, then you would not have to worry about DOJ's intellectual property.

 

Just some ideas,

 

KA

[Hermit]

An idea

 

I do not subscribe to Digital Hero, but it would seem to me that DH subscribers would not object to E products as much or they wouldn't be subscribers in the first place. So, maybe DH subscribers should get a 20% discount or so on HERO Plus Products?

This perk might encourage die hard e-luvin' herophiles to subscribe to DH even more. Meanwhile, Playtesters (who, I believe, are subscribers as part of being playtesters) would have this as a sort of 'we can't pay you... so here's a way of thanking you instead' message going for them.

 

Just a thought, not sure how workable or practical it would be.

[Victim]

1: It requires 2 separate products aside from the main rule book. I wouldn't mind getting an adventure so I can attempt to run something to introduce people to the game. But, since I'm not playing now, buying 2 extra books that I might not use doesn't seem like a good idea. By not putting the villain stats in the adventure, you're probably cutting out a fair bit of the potential market.

 

2: The price seems a bit high for a PDF, even a high quality one. I don't think a big change is needed. Maybe put it on sale for a bit.

[Guest Keneton]

Read It!

 

For those of you that have not read the adventure. . . You need to.

 

Old time champs guys will find this product far superior to the old time pre FRED product. Although I loved that old classic stuff, it was not that great as far as content and/or editing.

 

Has anyone else looked at the GREAT MAPS in this game!!

 

By the way these BIGGER companies everyone talks about will not be around in 4 or 5 years. Trust me. if I've learned one thing about this industry, quality will win over glitz in the long run. This is quality, and I am willing to pay $12 for it.

 

I am shocked at the number of people out there so against a few bucks. As I said before, the PDF thing is a real point, but as to if I get 97 pages of good stuff for 12 versus 14.95 for a lame paths to adventure module like The Speaker in Dreams or such, I'll spend my 12 bucks with Hero and print it myself.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Victim

2: The price seems a bit high for a PDF, even a high quality one. I don't think a big change is needed. Maybe put it on sale for a bit.

 

Now picture the thread started by those who paid the full price up front...

[RadeFox]

It wouldnt be bad, they have the email addy/account info for anyone who ordered it, they could easily offer them a discount on their next e-book buy of like amount. (and lure you into another buy!)

[badger3k]

Personally I like pdf for electronic documents - my players are in three states and 2 countries, so having documents that can travel and be shared among computers and operating systems (xp, OS X, and maybe linux soon). Something like Word (that no one in my group has or will use) is useless to us.

 

That said, the one to buy the ebook would be me, since I'm the GM and no one else would have it (at least until after we're done).

 

The price isn't a consideration now (although it may be in the future). The preview looked good, but when you don't have a credit card, and hate to borrow one to get a product, buying anything online is not easy. That's my biggest problem with the product. I may break down and borrow the card later, but I just bought most of the 5ed books in the last two weeks, so my plate is currently full with digesting the new rules.

 

I'd also agree that artwork isn't a major thing with me. It's nice, but if its not essential then I don't need it (sorry to the artists out there!).

[Captain Obvious]

I have no problems with PDF stuff. I think the benefits of the format equal the drawbacks in most cases. I haven't bought SoB for a few reasons, namely that I just dropped $50 or so on Hero books this weekend, I'll be dropping another $31.99 on a particular Hero book as soon as my order comes in, I don't currently have a gaming group, and I don't have the new Champions yet. Oh yeah, my CD burner is getting more and more chaotic, and I don't trust my computer enough to just keep it on my hard drive after paying money for it.

 

In a few weeks, the urge for more Hero stuff may kick in again, and since my FLGS can't quite get the idea that I'll buy it if they stock it, I may pick up SoB, whether I have a group or Champions 5th or not.

[Grailknight]

I plan to buy SOB but I do have some reservations.

 

1-Downloads have not been my friend in the past, I would love to buy SOB, USM and PRIMUS but my connection has poor quality and downloads fail more often than not.

 

2-$12 won't break me but it is more than I expected to pay for something I have to print and which can be lost if I have PC trouble. I would definitely pay $12-18 for such products on CD although I doubt this is really affordable for DOJ at this point.

 

3-Please rethink your stategy of not publishing old characters and creating minimal new characters in publications. I buy modules for new character writeups. Working up ways to fit in these NEW characters is the source of most of my campaign plots and stimulates my creativity. The main selling point of a supplement is what it ADDS to the existing material and in HERO history this has mainly been characters. Also, on a personal rant, descriptions which say use character X with Y changed set off my buttons. If a character is going to be used in a module then he should be interesting enough to warrant a writeup.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by JmOz

By the way when I am talking about scrounging it is going with out lunch for a week or two to afford it, that is what I did for star hero

Oh. My. God.

 

I hereby nominate you for #1 Hero Fan, JmOz.

 

The only downside is that you're totally insane.

[JmOz]

It's not that bad, all I was skipping was lunch (And I was eating fairly large dinners), far from not eating at all.

 

 

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by Darren Watts

Is this actually the case? I'd hate to think people who are fans enough of our product to want to playtest for us were choosing then not to help us stick around as a company. That puts us in the position of having to choose between playtesting publicly (and therefore having better product) and making a living financially.

 

I certainly understand and sympathize with not having enough money to support your hobby to the extent you'd like to. But if you're really saying you would have bought the product if you hadn't had the opportunity to playtest it, well, that means we'd need to reevaluate how we do things. dw

 

I don't think this is the case. I buy everything after DLing everything for playtesting.

 

I haven't bought SoB because of the Cash Flow Problem. In the past two months, you've released Champions Battlegrounds and Fantasy Hero.

 

WotC has released all three core books. Monte Cook has released his PHB.

 

Plus you've got school starting up, and the end of the summer doldrums starting. Plus, well, the economy isn't that great.

 

Last sunday in the FLGS we dropped 115 dollars (miniatures are my wife's crack). It was the biggest sunday sale the owner has seen in two months, and matched the previous Sunday's total sales.

 

I don't think it's just you. Everything seems to be in a malaise in the sales.

 

Now, granted, $12 for a nice fine quality artwork/writing .pdf still fits my price point. If it were a touch cheaper (8 to 10), then it would have been easier to squeeze in last week rather than this one.

 

D

[Talon]

I just hit Monte's site to check the prices of the PDF's I've purchased from him.

 

Book of Eldritch Might: $10.95, 48 pages.

 

If Thoughts Could Kill: $9.95, 64 pages.

 

I don't know how his pages and your pages equate in terms of word count. $12 for 70 or so pages seems maybe a bit high, maybe not.

 

I haven't purchased it for a couple reasons:

 

1) Cash flow, I have a hard time buying anything right now.

 

2) Not running a Champions game, so module stuff is unlikely to help me (unlike rules stuff ).

 

Honestly it's mainly #1; if I had the cash I would be buying one right now just to show support.

[Fry Daddy]

Here's my thought on this whole thing ---

 

I'm a DH subscriber who just renewed my subscription. The .pdf format is no big deal when I know I can burn the book to a disc and take it to Kinko's for them to print and bind for me.

 

I also playtest and have no problem buying what I playtest as 1) what I see is not the finished product by a long-shot, and 2) I'm a completist.

 

Spending $12 was not an issue for me. I have yet to see a (GOOD) module from either SAS or M & M for $12.95. They have both put out adventures, SAS costing $9.95 and M & M costing $16.95, but neither is near as good as SoB.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Grailknight

I plan to buy SOB but I do have some reservations.

 

1-Downloads have not been my friend in the past, I would love to buy SOB, USM and PRIMUS but my connection has poor quality and downloads fail more often than not.

 

2-$12 won't break me but it is more than I expected to pay for something I have to print and which can be lost if I have PC trouble. I would definitely pay $12-18 for such products on CD although I doubt this is really affordable for DOJ at this point.

 

This could be solved by not restricting the number of downloads. I realize there is a concern here that multiple people will download the pdf, but it can be emailed or photocopied without difficulty as well, so restricting to one download really only hurts the guy who bought it and lost it (failed download; HD crash, what have you).

 

The "piracy" issue, sad to say, may be a reason for poor sales. Everyone in the group wants their own snazzy book, but a photocopy of a PDF looks just like the real printout. Hopefully, that's not the reason for poor sales.

[Hugh Neilson]

A few reasons that have been alluded to:

 

(a) Price: $12 is a lot. Yeah, but this is a 97 page supplement, not a cheap 24 page d20 module. Printed and bound, what would it have cost? Not $15!

 

( Timing: Well, a Champions scenario release on PDF at the same time as the hardcopy Battlegrounds means some people are likely selecting between the two. CB has a limited print run, but PDF's will likely be available forever, right? I wonder if a Fantasy hero module would have done better.

 

© Flow through - when a print book comes along, Hero sells to distributors who sell to retauilers who sell to consumers. How many copies of CB are sitting in distributers' warehouses or on game store shelves? Those copies of SoB haven't been downloaded yet, as these middlemen aren't included.

 

(d) Resistance to eBooks. This is understandable - you get to print it yourself, and that nice cover just slows down my printer - if I got it in colour, it would likely kill an ink cartridge. Less art, and less fancy art, might reduce the cost without reducing demand. No credit cards makes it tough to buy.

 

(e) Scenarios tend to sell less anyway, don't they? We all want that spiffy new sourcebook, but only one of us will run that scenario.

 

(f) P/R - only website visitpors really know about SoB. Maybe future Champions supplements could include an "ad page" directing readers to the web site for this other great scenario "not available in stores".

 

(g) I think there's also a tendency to view ebooks as second stringers - not good enough to be on the publishing schedule. I've seen SoB - it's good enough to be published by Hero. That means it's better than 90% of the products on the market, in my opinion.

 

(h) Scenario issues like "no character stats so I have to buy another book to use it", which has been discussed in detail in respect of Champions Battlegrounds.

 

One thing no one mentions is errata. There were some problems raised with SoB early on, and we all got to download an updated copy. Try doing that with your copy of FREd! Kudos to Hero, by the way, for their fast action in that regard.

 

I don't know how SoB and Battlegrounds sales compare, or were expected to compare, nor how the multiples are working out. But you'll never have to reprint SoB.

[Fur Face]

Hey Darren

 

Hey Darren,

 

In all seriousness, there has been much debated about PDF vs. paper in hand, price, and all that other good stuff. While these are valid viewpoints, I don't think it really matters that much. Lets face it, most people were talking about scaling the price back $2-4 dollars. This amount is something that doesn't really mean anything to a consumer, but means everthing for yall. If that's what you need to sell it as, then I trust you, because all of you have proven you deserve it.

 

The PDF format has pluses and minuses, but that comes with the territory. In all honesty, if I need to print out something, I will print out the pages I need, and thats it. If I don't want to print a map, I'll just free hand sketch it. Better to have that ability than not at all. I enjoy the fact that once I have it, I'll never have to worry about pages ripping, bindings coming undone, etc.

 

If a PDF gives me access to material that I wouldn't otherwise have available, I'll get the PDF.

 

When push comes to shove, I firmly believe that if the product has your ususal high-standards for quality, then it will eventually be purchased.

 

I think that when it was released on the heels of Champions Battlegrounds, people had to choose, hence the cash flow problems. That was it in my case. I'll be getting SoB later this month, once I have the money.

 

Sorry is this is a little wordy, but I used to teach, so there ya go!

[TheQuestionMan]

E-cash floow problems

 

The greatest difficulty for most of us if the shear lack of e-currency . I don't have it and don't want to have it until I see something like this . Usually I ask a friend to do it for me and pay him back . It also makes it difficult to get your e-mag and other stuff . Heh I'm broke on a budget and computer poor .

 

P.S. : SEND THEM TO CONVENTIONS !!!

[Crimson Arrow]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

A few reasons that have been alluded to:

 

(a) Price: $12 is a lot. Yeah, but this is a 97 page supplement, not a cheap 24 page d20 module. Printed and bound, what would it have cost? Not $15!

 

( Timing: Well, a Champions scenario release on PDF at the same time as the hardcopy Battlegrounds means some people are likely selecting between the two. CB has a limited print run, but PDF's will likely be available forever, right? I wonder if a Fantasy hero module would have done better.

 

© Flow through - when a print book comes along, Hero sells to distributors who sell to retauilers who sell to consumers. How many copies of CB are sitting in distributers' warehouses or on game store shelves? Those copies of SoB haven't been downloaded yet, as these middlemen aren't included.

 

(d) Resistance to eBooks. This is understandable - you get to print it yourself, and that nice cover just slows down my printer - if I got it in colour, it would likely kill an ink cartridge. Less art, and less fancy art, might reduce the cost without reducing demand. No credit cards makes it tough to buy.

 

(e) Scenarios tend to sell less anyway, don't they? We all want that spiffy new sourcebook, but only one of us will run that scenario.

 

(f) P/R - only website visitpors really know about SoB. Maybe future Champions supplements could include an "ad page" directing readers to the web site for this other great scenario "not available in stores".

 

(g) I think there's also a tendency to view ebooks as second stringers - not good enough to be on the publishing schedule. I've seen SoB - it's good enough to be published by Hero. That means it's better than 90% of the products on the market, in my opinion.

 

(h) Scenario issues like "no character stats so I have to buy another book to use it", which has been discussed in detail in respect of Champions Battlegrounds.

 

One thing no one mentions is errata. There were some problems raised with SoB early on, and we all got to download an updated copy. Try doing that with your copy of FREd! Kudos to Hero, by the way, for their fast action in that regard.

 

I don't know how SoB and Battlegrounds sales compare, or were expected to compare, nor how the multiples are working out. But you'll never have to reprint SoB.

 

Many thanks to Hugh for doing this. In summary, a), , g) and h) have no significance to me, but they might well do to others.

 

I think c), e) and f) explain why sales might be low, but not why WE haven't bought copies.

 

For me, it all comes down to d). I am generally a bit nervy about this sort of thing, in particular the defective download problem, I'd also have to cram an Acrobat reader into my home PC (not a huge problem) and it would take a lot of effort to print off a copy (slow printer and very expensive cartridges). I've toyed with buying some of the 4th ed stuff online (Bedlam, Supermage), but just generally shied away from the idea because I want a hard copy.

 

Same reason I don't subscribe to Digital Hero, when I'd snap it up if it were printed.

 

I love Hero stuff; I just don't want it electronically. I understand that a lot of products are only viable in this medium. Looks like maybe they won't be viable in this medium, either. CDs would be preferable, but you'd still have the printing problem.

 

I think cutting down on art and "bells and whistles" might be the way to go. This might enable a slightly cheaper product (no odds to me), but more importantly an easier document to download and print off.

[Blue]

Sales Ideas for E-Books:

• Keep the price the same, but offer a discount as part of a package when you buy other items from the hero site. (Order FREd and get a few dollars off on SoB, or somesuch).
  
• Give 1 Credit toward Digital Hero with purchase of SoB. Not only might that encourage them to take the plunge but it would get them looking at DH and possibly gain potential sales in that area as well. Once they see a full issue of DH they might be in for good.
  
• I realize that SoB being an original adventure, it's choc full of things that aren't available elsewhere. But it couldn't hurt to throw in something hero gamers would want and cannot get in print. Hard part is thinking of what. If an adventure were based around, say, Dr. Destroyer, you could include a new version of his armor or a vehicle of his or something. The idea is to offer a particular item that GMs would kill to have for their campaigns because they'd want to use and re-use it.

 

Since SoB is an adventure I imagine you are tapping into the "GM Only" crowd. If it had been a book of spells for fantasy hero (Like the upcoming Grimoire) there might be a larger audience. Of course you're also likely with a product with wide appeal to wind up with people sending it to their friends, which I imagine is why you've gone the Adventure route for the first E-Book.

[Lord Mhoram]

I didn't have the "fun money" for it just yet. I work at a flgs one day a week (for store credit for stuff at cost) to feed my habits, so none of the gaming stuff I get comes from real budgeted money. So I needed to wait for the time to be right, and recently I had found farscape season one for an increadibly low price and blew my budgeted fun money on that.

 

I _will_ get it, it will just be in a week or two.

 

I also think that the puchasing pattern would be different for pdfs. Paper books you run out and buy, you thumb through and read. PDF you have to download, and either find time to read it on your computer or print it out. There is going to be a delay before you can read/use it anyway- so the motivation to buy it _right_now_ is nowhere near as strong with PDFs than it is with traditional forms of printing. The people I know that buy PDFs are all like this; admittedly small statistical sampling, but something else to chew on.

[Tom McCarthy]

I haven't purchased SOB yet for the following reasons:

 

i) Moneys tight for about 3 months since the car was written off at the end of July

 

ii) Costs for physical books have been high as convention season occurs, and physical stuff sells out (unlike e-books, which usually are available for years). For example, I just got CB last week. I'm still no through FH, and I know FHG, VIPER, Reality Storm, Alien Wars are coming.

 

iii) Time's short right now, with family / summer commitments chewing up playing and reading time.

 

iv) Little sense of urgency. I read it, I playtested it, I'm unlikely to ever run it again (none of my players are ever going to forget it). I will buy it for my collection, but it might be October or November.

 

I like the idea of e-books and keeping costs down. I had hoped for $10 price tag, but will pay $12 when it's the right time for me to buy it.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Blue

I realize that SoB being an original adventure, it's choc full of things that aren't available elsewhere. But it couldn't hurt to throw in something hero gamers would want and cannot get in print. Hard part is thinking of what. If an adventure were based around, say, Dr. Destroyer, you could include a new version of his armor or a vehicle of his or something. The idea is to offer a particular item that GMs would kill to have for their campaigns because they'd want to use and re-use it.

 

Actually, the map of the Mansion is very re-use-able. With very few tweaks, it could also be used for Star Hero or Fantasy Hero. I know I am planning on using it the nex time my Savage Earth players need to enter a Grand Master's mansion.

 

Keith "credit for map design to Allen, of course" Curtis

[Enforcer84]

I plan on purchasing it as soon as payday rolls round again (15th) ....but I have school starting and its rent time....