Off to a slow start...

[JmOz]

Originally posted by Graviton

I haven't purchased it for a couple of reasons:

 

1. We don't use the official Champions universe, although I did buy CKC (both the hard copy and the HD package) and I'm pilfering my brains out.

 

2. Cash flow. First on my list is USPD (still waiting for some extra $$$ so I can use the coupon I won at GenCon!), then probably Battlegrounds. I love that you guys are producing all this quality material, but I can't keep up!

 

3. I have no problems with PDFs. But I don't see the same need for artwork as there is in printed material for some reason, maybe I'm getting old. Maps are essential and sketches of new characters would be nice. Apart from that, I don't think any art is needed at all. Perhaps you could use whatever space is saved to include the stats for all the characters involved. And if that lowered the price a bit, then it would help to alleviate Reason 2.

 

I think for various reasons you need art to break up the flow, but recycled art would work for that just as well as the beutiful work done here

[Polaris]

DW,

 

Thank you for this thread. It is neat that you come to the fans seeking feedback and input.

 

As for me, I have not purchased SoB, and am unlikely to do so. Modules are nice for setting information and character information that can then be taken and applied to an ongoing story. The adventure is of less value to me (especially since my gaming group, like I suspect so many others, are unlikely to follow the story as written, and I will be doing more 'off the cuff' GMing anyway). Black Paladin has never been a character to play a significant part of our story (he has made one appearance... the first game I played Champions, he was a villain in the story).

 

The more modules offer setting information that can carry over beyond the particular adventure, the better for me. I am not in the least opposed to pdfs (I kinda like them... Kinkos is fairly cheap to get printed and bound).

 

Thanks again for asking us! :)

 

Polaris

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Polaris

Black Paladin has never been a character to play a significant part of our story (he has made one appearance... the first game I played Champions, he was a villain in the story).

 

I'd rather see published adventures use villains people have tended to ignore in their games. If I've used this character a lot, I've probably established some backstory and histpry elements that go beyond, or depart from, the writeup. That can make the scenario harder to rationalize, or even impossible to shoehorn without major changes.

 

For example, if the scenario centers around the "secret origin" of The Monster, and my players have never seen him in use before, it will likely be an exciting storyline. If I've already revealed a different "Origin of the Monster", the storyline becomes harder to use.

 

If BP's gpoal in the scenario had already been addressed (succeeded; he's given up) in a campaign, the scenario is less useful. On the other hand, if he's tried and failed before, the scenario will slide in brilliantly. [No, I'm not going to spoil it by indicating what he's up to...buy a copy if you want to find out ]

 

The big catch, of course, being how to identify the characters most likely to be unchanged in most campaigns. Certainly, the most reviled villains may fit this mold, but what's the likelihood of breaking sales records with a scenario touted to feature characters no one likes! One advantage to using new characters, especially for key roles, in scenarios.

[Polaris]

Hugh,

 

Excellent points!

 

As I generally would not use the adventure as designed and written, it would not really be a big issue to me. I like to glean setting and source information (such as locations, NPCs, etc) from adventures. Adventures can also be a help if they spark other ideas by simply reading the adventure.

 

Polaris

[Ghost who Walks]

Interesting topic. My reasons are as follows:

 

1) The vast majority of stuff I run in a campaign I develop myself, or my players do. Sourcebooks are usually mined for ideas.

2) I really prefer holding a book in my hands. Long experience with computers (Has it been 19 years?) has taught me not to trust anything stored electronically.

3) I don't like buying/ordering things online. Sorry.

4) I dislike the PDFs, and avoid them whenever I can.

 

I apologize for any negativity, but I imagine you are seeking honesty.

[bcholmes]

Re: Re: Errr... Huh?

 

Originally posted by Darren Watts

So, where is that 10-15% hiding out? Cause sales so far are pointing at numbers well short of that. Let's hear from some of the people who *wanted* PDF material. Or did we mis-estimate how many of you there really are out there? dw

 

Hmmm...

 

I don't know your business, or its metrics, but this is what jumped into my head. When dead-tree products arrive at my local game store, they usually have a number of copies in stock. Those copies may get sold weeks or months after they arrive.

 

The question I wonder is: are you figuring 10-15% based on numbers that went out to distributors, or actual sales? Or are you comparing to your own online store.

 

(These questions may be considered rhetorical; I'm just tossing out the thoughts in case they aid in understanding the comparisons).

[Bartman]

Well I'm a little late but I'll toss my 2 cents in as well. I haven't bought SoB because:

 

1- Current cash flow issues. Babies ain't cheep. And there are several other products which have, do and will take priority.

 

2- Applicability. I am not currently GMing anything. So SoB is unlikely to be of immediate intrest. To top that off, my current character is hunted by BP. There is a high probability that I will be run through SoB in the next few months. So in all fairness I won't look at the material until my GM has done whatever he may care to with it.

 

3- PDF. There is a reason I still haven't gotten any of the Digital Hero stuff yet. This isn't a complete turnoff, but it does lower the interest in picking the product up.

[DoctorItron]

Darren, I purchased the product in part because of this thread. I read the playtest and liked it, so I figured $12 to get the real thing was a fair price. After downloading the file, I felt that the playtest was better than the actual PDF product, solely because of the overly restrictive security settings on the PDF:

 

1) Commenting is disabled. I can't annotate the document to make notes.

 

2) Copying is disabled, so I can't grab a chunk of text and make notes outside of Acrobat Reader.

 

I sent an email to orders@herogames.com ("Re: Question about Shades of Black PDF") a few minutes ago. Please take a look at it when you have a chance. I don't really need a reply, but I think I raise valid points about the product.

 

I don't think they negatively impact product sales of the Shades of Black PDF because people don't find out about the settings until after they've paid. However, perhaps purchasers of earlier PDFs stayed away from Shades of Black.

 

(I checked Digital Hero #1 and I can Copy text, so I suspect these security settings might be new.)

[Herolover]

I hate to say this, but I think part of the problem is that you overestimated the sales on SOB.

 

I was part of the playtest for SOB and I bought SOB at the $12 price.

 

1) Playtest

I do not like the argument that “I playtested it so now I am not going to buy it.†If this works for SOB then it should work for all the other items playtested. I think it is more along the lines of “I playtested it, so it is going to wait till I have extra money.†I don’t understand why someone would not buy a module because they playtested it, but would buy VIPER when they playtested it.

 

2) Price.

Uhh…yes I guess you could say the price is somewhat high when there are D20 pdf’s for $5-8. However, I have downloaded them and the quality of SOB is so much higher. The D20 pdf’s are, for the most part, just simple text put into a pdf and sold. SOB, on the other hand, is the same quality as a HERO book, just put into pdf format.

 

Basically, I look at SOB and see a couple of problems.

1) Advertising, I really haven’t seen any. Unless you check the HERO boards or website you probably don’t know about.

2) When people see $12 they don’t realize the quality they are getting. Admitted for many this won’t matter since they have to print out the item. For them the extra quality won’t matter.

3) The biggest problem I see with SOB is the limited customer base it will have. I downloaded it because I want to support DOJ and do not feel right having the playtest and not buying the item. However, I honestly do not have any need for the item and if it wasn’t for my interest in supporting DOJ I wouldn’t have bought the item. I think I am like many people in that they really have no need for a Champions module no matter how good it is.

 

My suggestions

I really like HERO PLUS items because they get me things that I otherwise would not be able to get. Yes, I understand the comments of the people that say they want hard-copies, but what they don’t seem to understand is it is HERO PLUS or nothing at all. I also love the quality of SOB. It is the same as a hard-copy HERO book, just in pdf format. I really like that quality. However…..

 

1) Unless the item is a major cross-genre item I wouldn’t worry about quality as much, because you probably are not going to have as many purchasers. Example: A pdf on the ULTIMATE ANDROID will probably do much better than a TERRAN EMPIRE adventure. I would recommend cutting down on the artwork and time put into the adventure and genre specific books and put that effort into system books that will have a wide audience.

 

2) Definitely advertise on RPGNOW and some of the other major internet gaming stores

[GreyGuardian]

Darren,

 

How is SoB doing compared to Champs Battleground? (relatively). It could well be that folks interested enough to hit the website regularly are the ones most likely to be writting their own material and thus less likely to need modules.

 

If sales are still slow it probably has to do with lack of visibility. Or that it came out at the same time as champs battleground and the paper book was a priority for some.

[Strike13]

I have not purchased SOB as of yet but fullly intend to. I keep seeing every one make the suggestion to cut the artwork out and want to say that I disagree. I have come to expect certain things from Hero and artwork in the products are one of them. I am more than willing to pay the extra for the artwork.

[CourtFool]

I am in the pro-PDF group. I have not purchased SOB or the Resource Kit only because money has been a little tight lately. You guys are putting out too many high quality products these days to keep up. Quit it!

[Polaris]

As for .pdfs, I buy a lot of pdfs. It is really quite easy to bring it to Kinkos and have it printed and bound (printing is 7 cents per page, and binding is about 2-3 dollars, depending upon if you want coil or spiral binding... I recommend coil, so that it is easier to flip the pages). I usually pay an extra dollar for the hard plastic covers, rather than cardstock.. but the advantage to cardstock would be that they will copy the cover of the book onto the cardstock for free.

 

I would not pay 12 dollars for an adventure, have it printed (I am unsure how many pages the SoB has, but if it is 64, then that would be an additional 4.48... more if it has more pages, less if it has less). Binding for 3.50 (counting hard plastic cover, 2.50 without hard plastic)... so the cost is 19.98, plus the time and such to go to Kinkos, for an adventure that, if I used at all (again, not a big fan of Black Paladin), I would probably only use once. If the villain(s) used was a compelling one for our group (Dr. Destroyer or Eurostar), I would consider it... but, really I would only buy the book if it was good for source material (there are just too many good sourcebooks out there for that price that are paper products, or far cheaper for downloads).

 

So, I think that pdfs are good (I buy a lot of them), but the price is not at all worth it when good setting books can be had for the same or lower price.

 

Just my opinion...

 

Polaris

[tiger]

Why I Haven't picked it up yet is simple, no funds=no fun.

 

As for the others concerns

1) PDF - Owning a bublejet printing it is a bad idea. Kinko is EXTREMELY expensive. Louckly for my my boss has a laser and has has said I can use it just buy the ink.

 

2) Price - Does seem a bit high

 

3) Playtesters - As a playtester the PDF file I see has nothing to do with me purchasing it. The final produc is much different than the PDF. I choose the produces I purchase stricly on their use to me as a GM or Player.

 

4) Need - I base my decission to purchase a module , PDF or otherwise on rather I need it and will use it. If I don't see the use I don't see putting out the money on it.

 

I do plan on getting it sooner or later, I like BP and have used him quite often.

 

I would say I'm sure there are other products that have came out that aren't selling as well as others. I think the only the SOB has against it is to many people prefer hard copy to PDF and hate PDFs.

[Lord Liaden]

Darren, I always respect how DoJ always comes to the fans for feedback. You maintain contact with your clients better than just about any game company around.

 

I haven't purchased Shades of Black myself yet. I've been on the verge of downloading it a couple of times, but hesitated. Not for lack of interest or doubt in the quality, I assure you.

 

Price has been a factor. I'm watching my gaming budget lately and trying to prioritize. That's partly because the Canada/US exchange rate always jacks up the price about 30%. I'm also factoring in the price of printing and binding the book, because I find it uncomfortable and tiring to read something off a computer screen for an extended period - that's my only problem with long PDF books.

 

I admit, though, that in the back of my mind I'm thinking about the issues of Digital Hero that I've bought. Five dollars for 64 pages of articles, adventures, maps and diagrams, decent-to-very-good artwork plus a color cover; or $30 for 640 pages of same. When I think about that $12 for a 69-page adventure it feels a little steep. To be sure SoB has higher production values, but the values of DH are more than adequate for me, if that model would have any effect on the price. I also can't help thinking back to the PRIMUS e-book I bought a little over a year ago: $10 for a quality 100-page sourcebook.

 

When you get right down to it, what's the benefit of charging a higher price for a high-quality book if few people will buy it? My feeling is that something a little less elaborate but noticeably cheaper will sell much more volume, so you make more money in the long run.

 

Finally, I have to agree with other comments made here: if SoB had been selling at $8 US I would have snapped it up by now.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I admit, though, that in the back of my mind I'm thinking about the issues of Digital Hero that I've bought. Five dollars for 64 pages of articles, adventures, maps and diagrams, decent-to-very-good artwork plus a color cover; or $30 for 640 pages of same. When I think about that $12 for a 69-page adventure it feels a little steep. To be sure SoB has higher production values, but the values of DH are more than adequate for me, if that model would have any effect on the price.

Just one small clarification here so that others coming into this thread and reading this do not get the wrong idea about the size of the book as I did earlier in the thread. SoB is a 97 page pdf (a cover and 96 pages of adventure and color maps), not a 69 page pdf.

[Lord Liaden]

Thank you, Monolith. I'm not sure where I read that 69-page thing (I think it was earlier on this thread), but I'm glad you corrected me.

 

In that case I'd probably have been willing to shell out $10.00.

[Polaris]

The page count discrepancy is probably my fault... I used 64 pages as an example. I had gone to the online store to try to find out how many pages it was, but couldn't find the information. So, instead of printing at Kinkos being 4.48 or so, it would be 6.79 not counting the cover (the price of the cover would depend upon if it is color or B&W).

 

Sorry about the confusion, it was actually meant to illustrate.

 

Polaris

[Robert Harrison]

I almost never buy modules or background books - I prefer to put together my own adventures and backgrounds. I would have paid $12 for a 96 pg. rules supplement of some sort in e-form. I have no problem whatsoever with .pdf.

[Fedifensor]

A few quick thoughts from someone who hasn't bought SoB yet:

 

* Color Artwork - Seems rather pointless for a PDF product. Color covers are to draw someone's eye when they're browsing in a store. But someone buying a PDF product is looking for meat, not glitz. Plus, the 1 MB buffer on my Okidata laser printer makes it hard to print the cover, even though it's printing out in black and white.

* Artwork in general - See comment about about meat versus glitz. There are required pieces of artwork - pictures of the main villains and NPC's, maps, and other things a GM would need. But action scenes, pictures of generic heroes standing around, and similar things are unnecessary.

* Marketing - What is the percentage of registered users on the message boards to the number of copies of 5th edition that have been sold to date? Because if you don't come to the website on a regular basis, you won't know about SoB.

* Timing - D&D 3.5 just came out. That's nearly $100 of books to buy all at once, and it probably got more people playing it to try the revised rules. Right now, I couldn't get a HERO game started in my area to save my soul, and I normally don't buy adventures until I need ideas as a GM.

 

It sounds like your biggest cost was artwork. I think putting lots of art into a PDF is a mistake - it can raise the price beyond what many people are willing to pay in this economy.

[Agent X]

I don't get the price. There's no material cost and no shipping cost. I don't know how much the writer and artist(s) were paid but, geez, I'm not paying $12 + $7 to print + $2 to bind. That's $21, the risk of a faulty download, and an hour out of my life compared to walking up to the store and buying something. I have a hard time believing that even a 96 page e-book requires a $12 fee to purchase in order for the company to enjoy a profit margin. If it does, I think you guys aren't doing it right.

[Lord Liaden]

Hmm... looking over this thread I seem to see a majority opinion developing. Even among people who like PDF books, price compared to a printed book is a factor, and many seem willing to accept a reduction in production values in exchange for a lower price.

 

There also seems to be a common assumption that as an adventure, Shades of Black will have less long-term use than one of the various kinds of sourcebooks. Perhaps that perception could be addressed in advertising the product.

[Lord Liaden]

During this past day I've been trying to analyze the reasons for my delay over purchasing Shades of Black, which I really do want to pick up. I've realized that another factor is what I call PDF "shelf life." A printed book will often have a limited stay on game store shelves before being sold out, and with print runs being finite things, you can never be sure when you'll get another chance to buy it. So there's incentive to go out to get it as soon as you can, whether or not you intend to use/read it right away.

 

A PDF file is always going to be available; you can download it from a site like this pretty much whenever you want. I find that it's easier to procrastinate over buying it, giving it a lower priority than printed books until you're "ready" to do something with it. I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I was finally spurred to purchase The Ultimate Super Mage by fear that with 5E in print and new Champions books being published, that old 4E file would be eliminated from the website. (That turned out to be a quite interesting and useful purchase which I'm glad I made.)

[loraxxx]

i posed this question to some of the folks i game with tonight--and the general consensus was that no one wanted to purchase a module in .pdf format because no one wanted to be bothered with printing the thing out, and no one had a laptop.

 

there was much more interest in purchasing a bound product--i pulled out my new copy of the millenium city source book, and most folks took a look--one guy even asked if anyone new where to find a copy of ultimate martial artist, and since no one could knew where to find one, said he would probably buy one on-line....

[nlubofsky]

You might want to highlight the fact that it is a 5th Edition product in its description at the online store, because it shows up in the E-Books section of the online store along with 4th Edition products, and less frequent web-site visitors might overlook it when seeking new products.

 

Nick