Off to a slow start...

[JohnOSpencer]

I haven't bought it yet because it was released while I was on vacation, and when I got back there were all these sticky posts about problems with the downloads. I'm waiting for all the problems to be ironed out.

 

John Spencer

[Blue]

Originally posted by JohnOSpencer

I haven't bought it yet because it was released while I was on vacation, and when I got back there were all these sticky posts about problems with the downloads. I'm waiting for all the problems to be ironed out.

 

John Spencer

 

Then purchase away! I had no problem with my download and I got it a week ago. Looks very nice, though I've only browsed it.

[Ben Seeman]

The download problem has been resolved.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Darren Watts

Well, as I say above, we're looking into that. Monte has an entire business devoted to PDFs and much larger sales numbers, which help him spread costs.

Well now that I have the module I will take back my comments on the cost. My original statement was made when I read that it was only around 70 pages long. At 70 pages I assumed that $6-8.00 was a fair price based on a published book. But now that I see that the module is 97 pages long I think the $10-12.00 rage is quite fair. I would end up paying around $19.95 for a 96 page printed book, so the price you are listing is well in line.

 

As for color art, it's something we'd like to put into future products if there are any. Let me know when you've actually seen the book whether you like the layout- I think it's quite different from our standard.

I do not think the layout of the book was much different than a standard issue of Digital Hero. Granted there were some gradient boxes but those seemed fairly standard. I would be more interested in seeing the wasted space in the sidebars removed. The book would probably be 8-10 pages smaller without the sidebars. This makes printing less expensive for those of us inclined to print it too.

 

I also think that you should experiment with some color in the text and possibly in the background. I hate to say it but graphics-wise books like SAS Deluxe and the entire M&M line are far more eye-pleasing due to the layout scheme. Gamers like flash, especially when dealing with the superhero genre, which is all flash.

 

Fair cop. We haven't had much time or money available for marketing this book. And we used to be on Gaming Report in particular regularly- I don't know why they stopped posting our stuff, but I'll look into it.

Gaming Report does not post the information. Fans or publishers post the information. Which ever fan was doing it for the HERO updates all of those weeks just got tired of doing it. But I do think it is something that should be continued by someone at DOJ. For something like marketing the company's line a fan should not be the one responsible for that. News bulletins, product releases, pdf sample releases, FAQ updates, and USPD and Spacer Toolkit updates should all be posted to those boards so that fans, and potential fans, can be made aware.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by RPGNet's store, which AFAIK is for hard books only and we are available there. (If I'm mistaken, let me know.) As for RPGNow, SoB is available for sale there.

Yes, that is what I was meaning. I did not know it was for sale there because I have been offline for quite some time, and I am a little out of touch. I am glad that it is there. Now if I could make just one suggestion about it, I would say change the descriptive text that is being used at RPGNow.

 

This Hero Plus adventure for Champions pits the characters against the evil Black Paladin, who's begun a dark crusade of murder and havoc with a sinister purpose in mind. The adventure features three new villains and numerous maps (including a fully mapped-out haunted mansion!).

 

69 pages Authors: Allen Thomas Artists: Nate Barnes

 

There is nothing there that makes me want to pull out my credit card and buy this product. Maybe it was just because I was raised reading Marvel comics, but I think a description should add some excitement, true believer.

 

Well, I talked about this above. Not playtesting publicly IMO leads to an inferior product. But if playtesting publicly leads to an unprofitable product, then we'll have to reconsider our plan.

I do think playtesting is very helpful to a product, but it could still be possible for HERO Plus products to be playtested. Just pick a handful of volunteers like you did with the Bestiary. The advantage to HERO Plus products is that if something is missed it is easily fixed, unlike a printed book.

 

Well, drop me another line once you've looked at it. I'll be glad to discuss it further. dw

I just did.

[Agent X]

If it's 96 pages in length, the data on RPGNow needs to be corrected.

[Enforcer84]

Originally posted by Ben Seeman

The download problem has been resolved.

 

 

Little off topic, but Great pic on the wedding page Ben. A lovely couple indeed.

[Killer Shrike]

Skimmed the 1st page and part of the 2nd only, so apologies if Im regurgitating what others have already said.

 

For me $12 is negligible; I probably blow $12 a day just on Coffee and soda (2 triple Vente Caramel Macchiatos at 4.55 @ and 3 or 4 screw-top Mountain Dews at a buck each, and a bag of peanuts for .65.....yeah, easily), so throwing down on a cool product is not a concern.

 

I buy a copy of every HERO Product from a local game store even if I dont want it as a principle thing -- Ill even special order it if necessary rather than just buy it online to raise awareness of the product line at the store and encourage them to stock the product. Currently, at Game Empire which is AFAIK the largest game store in the SD area, HEROs Product is very prominantly stocked and reportedly is selling fairly well, which is very cool. Im not intimating that its due to me by any stretch, but I try to do whatever I can to reenforce the trend.

 

But, unlike many gamers, I am profitably employeed and so is my wife -- so we do ok, even paying the San Diego Sunshine Tax (high cost of living). Most of my players are not and I feel their pain -- they have to budget or give up niceties like food. So maybe the price is an issue for them.

 

Not that it matters, because since Im the GM, Im the only one who'd buy it any way.

 

 

I am also a DH subsriber, and even though I get the playtest docs, I still buy the product as fast as I can, preferrably on the 1st day they are available. Champions BG is a perfect example; Ive been running adventures from the Playtest, but only bcs CBG somehow slipped under the radar at Game Empire and they didnt get any in -- Ive special ordered it and am waiting for its arrival. By the time it gets here, Ill probably be done with the adventures Im interested in via using the playtest -- but Ill still buy it. Fair is fair.

 

 

Also, Im not a big fan of PDFs. Ive always found them to be a big hassle and prefer printed product. I recently got a subscription to DH, but initially only to get the Fantasy HERO Playtest. Ive interacted with Dave Mattingly in the past on Haymaker and EZHero and have a huge amount of respect for him as a fellow gamer -- his Haymaker articles really enriched my games, and his editing of my material taught me a lot, so Ive always held him in high esteem, but I still didnt get DH, just because I generally detest PDFs. But, now that Ive got the first 10 issues (and 13 just tonight) Im a DH convert. The material in DH is so great it totally compensates for my feelings regarding their medium. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND DIGITAL HERO TO ALL HEROs GAMERS!!!!!

 

Mostly for me, its just a busy stretch of time. My wife is starting school (finishing up her 2nd Bachelors and starting her undergrad work), Im wrapping up a new Payroll Budget System I designed at work which needs to be 100% in time for the upcoming fiscal year, and also bootstrapping my new Fantasy HERO website from the ground up. Ive been getting around 3 to 4 hours of sleep every night for a month, working long days and then coming home to do website content.

 

So, its mostly just bad timing Im willing to wager that this time of year is not ideal for many people. The end of summer is always sluggish IME, as people wind down.

 

 

Finally, Im sure somebody on these boards could illustrate how its all got something to do with Mars being so close

[zornwil]

To answer this question differently, I ONLY bought it on the understanding of the maps included. If that helps put the puzzle together...great...if not...ignore!

[zornwil]

I can add on one comment more - if I don't get to browse a book (at least a reference or RPG or nonfiction book anyway) before buying, it's much less likely I'll buy it. I've only bought 1 or 2 of the Digital Heroes because it isn't clear to me there's enough content of interest. With SoB, I should add on something important - the reason I knew there were sufficient maps is because I'm in the playtest group, so that motivated me to buy it. Were I not in that group, I may not have bought it as I may not have been sure the maps (number/type) would be worthwhile.

[death tribble]

I bought it and as an Overseas player, this is good.

 

I was able to set up the info and pay for it and get the thing to download quickly. Then I was able to print it.

 

However people would need WinZip and Adobe Acrobat first in order to get it to work.

Otherwise ok.

[acowie]

Yet another viewpoint

 

I've bought everything I have ever seen for sale for the Hero system over the past fifteen odd years. I happen to have an understanding wife and a job that means I've got the cash.

I've just discovered the whole Digital Hero/downloadable pdf thing, and the major thing putting me off is the downloading hassle.

I want Hero Designer, all the supplements, all the ebooks, all the Digital Heros, but it's just going to take a million years (possibly an exaggeration) to download.

And the process of ordering and downloading each thing separately, even if I do it at work :-) strikes me as a nightmare.

Could I send you $200 and you send me all the stuff you've got on a CD or two?

[Battlestaff]

I've been skimming the thread here at work, so forgive me if I discuss something that's already been hit on.

 

I haven't downloaded any of the items (SoB or Digital Hero) for several reasons:

 

1) I've only seen a little bit of the product (in the case of SoB just to opening pages), and I want to browse a book before buying it. You don't go to a gaming store, pick up a supplement, browse the opening 1-3 pages, then decide to buy the book. As for Digital Hero, looking at the free promos, if the rest of the books are of that quality, I have no interest in picking up the rest of the book. If it isn't, why isn't it?

 

2) While I was looking into whether I wanted to buy it or not, I saw listings on the discussion boards about how those who bought SoB already could download something or needed to do something to make the maps more readable. Now, if I buy a hardback supplement, I can see if there's a problem with the printing, and whether I can fix the problem on my own. With a download, I'm at your mercy that the download is compatible with what I have on my computer, and that my printer (piece of #$%%) is going to be able to print out everything.

 

3) If I buy a supplement, I don't have to do anything else to be able to read it anywhere I want (the living room, resting on the couch, in the bathroom, etc.). If I download a supplement, I either have to read it at the computer or print out using my own printer. That's no fun.

 

4) If I haven't printed it out, and something happens with my computer (virus, technicle problems, etc.), I can't access the document, or could even have to buy a new one. With a printed supplement, I only have to worry about food, flood, or fire.

 

That's my two-cents worth. I'm not a total technophobe, I've just had enough trouble with the computer before that the potential problems put me off from paying such a high price for the supplement.

[Sketchpad]

I haven't snagged SoB because I'm not a big fan of adventures ... personally, I think that adventures should be kept in things like DH and e-products used to focus on detailing the system further, adding depth to campaign settings or allow for alternative campaign settings ... Something like a group book (ie: Eurostar) would make a good book, detailing their tactics, stats and equipment with maybe a short adventure in the back. I'd love to see superhero group PDFs with some info on the characters, allies and enemies, as well as equipment, vehicles and bases ... then maybe have a module in the back that focuses on the group along with some plot hooks. The old Villains and Vigilantes module "Crisis at Crusaders Citidel" comes to mind when I think of the adventure types Also, a book on specific gadgets ... like a Robot Handbook, listing several robots for any campaign and having some flavored ones for use in specific genre conventions

As far as price ... PDFs IMHO should be low cost, ranging from $7 - $15 at most. I know that I wouldn't pay for anything higher cost than that. Color pics would be nice, though not entirely nesscessary ... gimme crunchy bits and a nice format with some good illustrations of what's going on anyday

[mattingly]

A lot of good comments here. I appreciate hearing everyone's feedback, both positive and negative. The idea of giving out a free DH credit with purchase of an ebook is excellent, especially since it would be instantly redeemable (just download one while you're downloading the other).

 

As for why sales are low so far, my guesses are:

1) only website visitors know it's here, not game shop visitors;

2) no ability to preview the contents;

3) dislike of electronic books;

4) it's only been a week or so.

 

For #1, will ebooks be shipped on CD to distributors, the way that some of the previous Hero books were? (I bought my Kazei 5 on a floppy at a store, even though I knew it was avilable for download.) Also, although it would be an additional cost, have you considered making up some posters or flyers for the distributors to send out with their weekly bundlers?

 

For #2, a few sample pages showing off a map, one of the official reports, and maybe a brief outline, would help to show just how cool the product is. And I love the fact that almost every map has a separate drawing for the "GM's Map" and the "Players' Map."

 

For #3, you can to point people to RPGNow's print-on-demand feature, where customers can order a printed, bound copy of an ebook for a few dollars extra. I believe that in the near future (say, the next 5 years), ebooks will become much more accepted. And in the further future (say, 10-15 years), that ebooks will actually surpass printed books as the medium of choice. Compare to the CD versus LP paradigm shift. 10 years from now, when we're all reading books electronically, we'll be glad that we've got our Hero goodies already converted, instead of wishing that they'd finally reprint them digitally.

 

For #4, a lot of hardcopy sales come from presales. Hardcopy books sell most of their print run in the first couple of weeks, but not so for most ebooks. As I understand it, DOJ doesn't want to get into a lot of taking money beforehand, due to liability issues, but have you considered any kind of preorders for ebooks?

 

--

 

As for good things about the ebook, none of my gaming group even read the playtest, since we were all hoping to eventually play in it (we rotate GMing duties). But now that I see the actual copy of SOB, it's extremely cool.

 

Since there's no actual limit on page count, you got to do things you wouldn't ordinarily do. The combat chart (detailing DEXes, SPDs, etc. is already filled in for the ebooks NPCs, with blank lines there for the PCs.

 

The one thing I'd like to see (and this may seem hypocritical coming from me, since I include almost entirely B/W art in Digital Hero) is all-color art. Since it doesn't cost Hero anything extra for printing, which is the big expense with color, it should be economical. And you could probably find a fan/playtester or two that would be willing to color in the B+W art in exchange for a comp copy of the final product. Once that's all there, the individual customer can choose to print in color or B+W, or not to print at all.

 

Since this isn't DOJ's first ebook (only the first in-house ebook), how do sales here compare to The Kandris Seal?

[zornwil]

Originally posted by mattingly

For #3, you can to point people to RPGNow's print-on-demand feature, where customers can order a printed, bound copy of an ebook for a few dollars extra.

 

....

 

As I understand it, DOJ doesn't want to get into a lot of taking money beforehand, due to liability issues, but have you considered any kind of preorders for ebooks?

 

Pardon snippage.

 

First comment above, excellent idea, I think I would take advantage of that time and again. I would pay a few dollars extra just to avoid the wear and tear on my own printer.

 

Hey - here's a tangential idea - what if there were some way where if you buy a hardcopy HERO book in a store you could send in some coupon or other identifier from the book with $5 (or some-such) and get the electronic version on CD sent to you? Probably too much overhead, but would be useful and I think this method would reduce piracy - especially if the CD lacked pictures or some-such "niceties".

 

Re the second comment, I have been involved in e-presales though for physical materials, and if there's sufficient "buzz" around the product they tend to work very well. That buzz may be already here in the HERO personal network sufficiently enough to make it worthwhile, at least as a pilot.

[Koshka]

Originally posted by mattingly

For #1, will ebooks be shipped on CD to distributors, the way that some of the previous Hero books were? (I bought my Kazei 5 on a floppy at a store, even though I knew it was avilable for download.)

 

You beat me to it, Dave. My FLGS still has (as of the last time I went over there) floppies of Ultimate Super Mage and Classic Enemies available. If SOB and (hopefully) future Hero Plus releases were released in both all-electronic and disk versions it might help -- both in getting the word out and for those who aren't sure about their connection staying good for an entire download.

 

I'm not as sure about color art, though. Sure, pretty colors on my monitor doesn't cost Hero anything, but I'm guessing it would be more expensive to get in the first place -- and if SOB isn't selling enough to pay for the non-color art .... Besides, while I can refill the black cartridge on my printer, I can't refill the color cartridge. Since some people in this thread have been complaining about printing costs, I'd think it would be better to stick with a file that's less expensive to print.

 

Oh, yes, one of the original questions -- I haven't gotten it for cash flow reasons, but this paycheck is going to have about 12 hours of overtime. Payday is Saturday, can you wait until then? (And, if no one beats me to it, I'll see if I can write up a no-spoilers or minimal-spoilers review for Pyramid.)

[mattingly]

I'm not as sure about color art, though. Since some people in this thread have been complaining about printing costs, I'd think it would be better to stick with a file that's less expensive to print.

 

Yes, but even though the artwork would be in color, and you have a color printer, you don't have to print it in color. Just about every color printer has the ability to print in B/W on a doc-by-doc basis.

[Tamashii2000]

For me it was/is a Timing/cash flow issue. I will and fully do intend of getting it (and everything else that comes out for the champions line) Just don't have the cash at the moment as 'real life' takes center stage when it comes to bills.

[lemming]

Put me down as another cash flow crisis victim.

 

Redoing the budget and I'll try to put in the funds for more Hero product.

[OddHat]

Well, I purchased a copy and printed it out. Credit where credit is due; the art is very, very good. My wife loves it, which has been the deciding factor in many of our gaming purchases over the years.

 

That said, I still would have been more likely to buy sooner for a lower price in an on-line PDF product, even if it meant less art.

 

The writing is also very good, and that counts for far more in a gaming product's long term value (imo) than the art.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by OddHat

That said, I still would have been more likely to buy sooner for a lower price in an on-line PDF product, even if it meant less art.

 

The writing is also very good, and that counts for far more in a gaming product's long term value (imo) than the art.

 

The finished product looks spectacular, no question. But I agree that I would have been just as happy with less art, and if that can lower the price, attract more buyers and justify the production of more such products, I'm all for it.

[mrswing]

Well, I bought it too to help DOJ out - even though I originally had no intention to. Simply because I'm not a fan of magic-centered superhero stories.

Anyway, I generally agree with the consensus: the art is very good, the maps are extremely well done and useful. Didn't need them in color if that means a lower price (probably doesn't for PDFs) but they are first-rate gaming aids.

As for the whole Art In Pdfs-issue: for superhero games I think illos of the new characters are essential. but general 'mood' art illustrating potential scenes from the plot are less so unless there's a good reason for the artwork (showing a certain location/item/event so that the players really visualize the situation).

Finally I have to be honest: I wasn't planning on getting this because of the playtest file. I think that sharing adventures for playtest reasons will lessen sales, simply because once you've read or played it, you're through - you have the info or have had the gaming experience, why go back to it? It's different for rulebooks, especially additions like MMM where art will be essential in bringing the entire book to life. So I would advocate either sharing your adventure material (which you SHOULD keep producing!!!) to a limited group of trusted playtesters, or else adding so much to the adventure pdfs in the way of goodies (the maps are a nice beginning, how about character standups for all the NPCs as well as for some vehicles/items? Just a thought) that buying the pdf becomes essential.

Anyway, I think this current marketing campaign has worked really well and I sincerely hope that the Champions Plus-line does become a succesful venture in future!

[JmOz]

Well,

 

Donloaded it last night, have not read it except for the playtest version yet BUT

 

The art is beutiful, and I can see why you charged so much for it.

 

HOWEVER,

 

In the future I would STRONGLY consider recycling art opposed to commisioning new art (I would get new covers done for each however)

[Graviton]

I haven't purchased it for a couple of reasons:

 

1. We don't use the official Champions universe, although I did buy CKC (both the hard copy and the HD package) and I'm pilfering my brains out.

 

2. Cash flow. First on my list is USPD (still waiting for some extra $$$ so I can use the coupon I won at GenCon!), then probably Battlegrounds. I love that you guys are producing all this quality material, but I can't keep up!

 

3. I have no problems with PDFs. But I don't see the same need for artwork as there is in printed material for some reason, maybe I'm getting old. Maps are essential and sketches of new characters would be nice. Apart from that, I don't think any art is needed at all. Perhaps you could use whatever space is saved to include the stats for all the characters involved. And if that lowered the price a bit, then it would help to alleviate Reason 2.

[DoctorItron]

I dislike reading large volumes of text on a computer. Sure, e-books can be printed on a home inkjet, but then that makes the real cost much higher because of ink cartridge costs. And we only wind up with poorly bound, single sided books that smudge as soon as they get near any moisture

 

Tangent #1: Has anyone brought an e-book to a printing shop to get a nice copy? How did it turn out, and did it cost as much as I fear?

 

Tangent #2: Has Hero ever considered releasing the same product in print and e-book formats at the same time? I'd *love* to have electronic versions of Fred and Champions.