JmOz Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 so I have a few ideas on how I want to change PRIMUS for my games. However before I meddle to much I was wondering how large do people think it should be. For the record I am keeping cyberline, but most agents will not be using it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone Posted April 27, 2009 Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS Do you plan on adjusting the power level of the avengers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted April 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS Do you plan on adjusting the power level of the avengers? A bit, I have to look at them closer, but in a nutshell I think a silver avenger should be about what the PC (This includes the gear an Avenger carries) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS A bit' date=' I have to look at them closer, but in a nutshell I think a silver avenger should be about what the PC (This includes the gear an Avenger carries)[/quote'] I totally agree Cheers QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS In the 4th edition e-book, PRIMUS had one Avenger per major city. In 5th, it is heavily implied that some cities have multiple. If you want a more limited size, having one per major city (and some PRIMUS bases in smaller cities with no Avenger) would be a good start. Second, what other types of agents do you want to have? What missions do you see these agents routinely taking on? Overall, is there a real-world Federal agency that you see as closely paralleling your vision of PRIMUS? Again, in the 4th edition e-book, PRIMUS was heavily modeled on the real-world FBI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS A bit' date=' I have to look at them closer, but in a nutshell I think a silver avenger should be about what the PC (This includes the gear an Avenger carries)[/quote'] Currently, they pretty much are. Avenger Sanchez (Millennium City) comes in at 377 points in a Standard Superhero power level setting. If you are going to have your PCs at a different power level and/or starting point total, you'd need to adjust, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted April 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS Currently' date=' they pretty much are. Avenger Sanchez ([i']Millennium City[/i]) comes in at 377 points in a Standard Superhero power level setting. If you are going to have your PCs at a different power level and/or starting point total, you'd need to adjust, of course. I don't know honestly, I am toying with the Bronze Being standard level (350), Silver being High power (450-500), Gold being very high (600) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS I agree with raising the power level of avengers. You could always add a new lower level avenger (bronze) for dealing interacting with lower level PC's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted April 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS In the 4th edition e-book, PRIMUS had one Avenger per major city. In 5th, it is heavily implied that some cities have multiple. If you want a more limited size, having one per major city (and some PRIMUS bases in smaller cities with no Avenger) would be a good start. Second, what other types of agents do you want to have? What missions do you see these agents routinely taking on? Overall, is there a real-world Federal agency that you see as closely paralleling your vision of PRIMUS? Again, in the 4th edition e-book, PRIMUS was heavily modeled on the real-world FBI. Primus will primarily be the American answer to UNTIL, their first priority will be the apprehension of super humans Investigation, combat, super vision of super teams, that is what I can think of right now, just starting thinking about this honestly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS I don't know honestly' date=' I am toying with the Bronze Being standard level (350), Silver being High power (450-500), Gold being very high (600)[/quote'] I really really like this idea Four Stars QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS I really really like this idea Four Stars QM Doh! I missed that earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LA Singletary Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS JmOz, I like the idea a whole lot. I think having Gold, Silver and Bronze level Avengers makes a whole lot of sense. You might even have a super secret Platinum Avenger that gets activated only for Dr. Destoyer Level. I am of the understanding that Primus has regular field agents as well right? What would their point totals be and would they have specializations ala UNTIL/Viper agents? I agree that they should act like a version of the FBI. I ran a game where multiple states were Protected by Goverment Sanctioned supers and backed up by PRIMUS. Each team had a Primus agent assigned to run back up for them as a liason to Primus. I also had an UNTIL liason but that person only showed up when their were internationl issues. Hope to hear more on this subject. Lauren A. Singletary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcw43921 Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS I think the Iron Guard should be restored to PRIMUS, with its commandant having a really high-powered suit and being called the Iron Avenger. They should also have their own team of supers. While I liked Executive Sanction (4th Ed. Allies, pgs. 7-17) I think that there could be more than one government agency sponsoring a hero or team of heroes. The Postal Service, for example, could have a speedster on their payroll, while the National Park Service could have a hero with wilderness-based powers. And certainly each branch of the Armed Forces could have their own super-teams with all the attendant rivalries--can you imagine what the Army-Navy Game would be like if both their super-teams showed up? Or an air show if the Air Force's "Thunderbird" challenged the Navy's "Blue Angel" to a fly-off? That would be fun to watch. Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS I used PRIMUS very heavily in my version of the 5e Champions Universe. ************************ One of the Millennial Men was John Wrath, the "most experienced Silver Avenger" still in active service when the MillMen campaign started, a crusty old schooler patterned after Nick Fury.... John Wrath But his rough edges didn't fly in the PC media-conscious bureaucracy PRIMUS has become, and he was forcibly "retired" after play started. He was replaced by Mayte Sanchez, who I retconned to be relatively inexperienced rather than a 13 year veteran, who Wrath contends is just a photogenic political appointee with Cyberline. I did quite a bit of development around my version of PRIMUS specifically to support this PC. As far as the Cyberline goes, I treated the boosts of the treatment as essentially granting moderate super strength and durability and stat buffing; however individual beneficiaries vary in the exact form and the degree to which they have those abilities, and some will have quirky variations. For example, John Wrath isn't as strong as some of the other SA's, but he is harder to kill and has better reflexes. He also has a couple of quirks not typical of other Cyberline recipients, in that his aging process is slightly retarded and he heals quickly. In my campaign, Cyberline is just the CU version of the Super Soldier Serum, for which only a very few people are compatible and of those few even fewer are desirable candidates for "avenger-hood". Cyberline doesn't wear off with time; though it's called a "treatment" but its not ongoing -- its a permanent alteration. That is part of the secret of it; if the populace knew Cyberline was a one time shot permanent improvement vs a reoccurring treatment there would be a lot more concern over controlling possible "rogue" avengers in some sectors, and on the flip side of the coin some would ask why members of the general public that were compatible couldn't be recipients. As far as being "Cyberline" compatible, I assumed that its not a mater of a boolean on/off level of no or 100% compatibility; rather there would be a very small number of people that where 100% compatible, meaning they would get the maximum possible benefit from Cyberline with the minimum possible (or no) side effects. Since not even all people that are compatible would be good candidates -- there is no reason why a 90 year old granny couldn't be compatible if tested, but many reasons why she wouldn't be recruited -- you are looking at the option of either having a handful of perfect SA's, or having to settle for people that are less compatible (and will get less of a boost and perhaps a side effect or two) but are good recruits with other useful skills and abilities. Not all SA's are created equal in other words. Also, all concerns of Cyberline aside, I didn't get trapped in the gamist "who can beat up who" measurement of effectiveness. There is also actual performance and adherence to the goals of the organization to consider. You could have a perfect Cyberline specimen who took to the drug well, but doesn't have the personality, mentality, disposition, or grit to be a good field agent. They look great on the posters, but some other SA who is less "perfect" from a Cyberline enhancement perspective might be much better at getting things done, leading normal Agents, and utilizing the powers of their office and organization to get super crime under control. Also, its a govt agency so like it or not politics can play a part as well. ************************ Overall we treated PRIMUS like any other Government bureaucracy; with some incompetence and inefficiency, some hidebound adherence to rules that don't always makes sense, and some people that just obstruct and get in the way, but also with tremendous power when focused, some wiggle room "off the record", and some very talented and capable people that know how to get things done. There were irritants that got in the way like Lt. Jonathan (not Jon) Sparks, and people that were good to go and helped the heroes when they could like Lt. Mike Davis and Dr. Albert Reyes from R&D. Sometimes the heroes got things done thanks to PRIMUS, and sometimes they got things done in spite of PRIMUS, and sometimes things got messed up thanks to PRIMUS, and other times PRIMUS had nothing to do with it. PRIMUS definitely couldnt handle the supervillainy of MillCity by themselves at the beginning of the campaign (thus enter the PCs), but what they could do was support the PC's and enable them to be...well...the HEROES. I did characterize them as being somewhat in decline, having gone through a period of politicing and getting bogged down in red tape and increasingly caring more about sanctioning superheroes than catching bad guys, and generally losing their focus as a supercrime fighting agency. However, there were initiatives in effect to reverse the course of PRIMUS's decline; the first was something called the HERONet initiative, kind of an outreach program from sanctioned heroes that want to do the right thing that gain some PRIMUS sponsorship and support in return for answering the call for assistance when needed. The other was led by one of the Player Characters, Major Savage a Terran Marine from the future of an alternate timeline who was determined to reform PRIMUS from within, and founded a special elite unit called The ICARUS Agenda (Immediate Combat Action Response Units) . In the later stages this played an increasing background role in the campaign; with Major Savage doing the trial run for the ICARUS unit in MillCity and exerting control, the MillCity PRIMUS office was becoming very competent and could handle routine threats, particularly in conjunction with MARS units and occasional help from local supers. This was deliberate as I was moving to the point where the MillMen, whose power level had creeped up, would be more active outside of MillCity and thus I was backfilling the power void. ************************ I was in the process of introducing a new PRIMUS outreach program to sanctioned heroes called HERONet, headed up by Showdown. At various points, a number of characters were noted as being involved with HERONet to some degree or another, both in background drops and couple of in-play usages: HERONet Also, War-Man of the Millennial Men was cozy with the HERONet upper leadership and had a good repoire with them. The purpose of HERONet was to improve PRIMUS's relationship with local heroes, and extend a support network; teams of supers could also be called up ersatz from HERONet participants as needed. It was a good background element, tied some things together. ************************ Sanctioning with PRIMUS was a key plot element; most of the MillMen sanctioned, and the angst around sanctioning or not sanctioning and dealing with unsanctioned allies was a reoccurring obstacle. ************************ One of the PC's of the short lived Champions of the West campaign was a former PRIMUS engineer who (ab)used his position to crib designs from various Power Armor suites and eventually built his own; Makeshift ************************ In the "Through a Mirror Darkly" adventure I wrote for Digital HERO #38, the ZED organization is a dark reflection of PRIMUS as they are used in my campaign. The provided writeups for ZED Agents and Flying Cars are basically copies of the write-ups I use for PRIMUS with the name changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS the reptonfa has swung Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS I don't know honestly' date=' I am toying with the Bronze Being standard level (350), Silver being High power (450-500), Gold being very high (600)[/quote'] Well, Cyberline as written is a functional super-soldier treatment bordering on a superhuman soldier treatment. (See Champions Universe, p. 40, for the difference.) If you are going with those totals, then either A. the higher ranked Avengers have a lot more/better gear or B. Cyberline is a full-blown functioning superhuman soldier treatment (as per CU). Either works, but consider carefully the implications of option B. I've expounded at length elsewhere, so I'll say no more here.* That said, you'd boost PRIMUS's power tremendously by implementing the above. Not that I would consider that a bad thing; no, not at all... *OK; I'll say one thing, but it's new. If you are looking for additional abilities for the Silver and Gold Avengers, check out Captain Patriot (CU, pp. 84-87); the character sheet reads like a prototype Avenger... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS Primus will primarily be the American answer to UNTIL, their first priority will be the apprehension of super humans Investigation, combat, super vision of super teams, that is what I can think of right now, just starting thinking about this honestly OK. Pick a real-world organization as an approximation. Here are some choices: U.S. Marine Corps - The authorized strength was about 178,000 in 2004; if anybody else has better (unclassified) numbers, chime in. This is about the top end for any organization like PRIMUS or UNTIL, as this is a full-blown warfighting force, albeit with most of it's logistical needs provided for by an external organization (the U.S. Navy, here). Another possibility would be a Marine Expeditionary Unit, a 2500-man combat unit; although that group is intended to operate together rather than distributed across the whole of the U.S., it still gives an idea of scale. 75th Infantry Regiment (Ranger), U.S. Army - the Rangers, yup. As I recall, three light infantry battalions, each numbering about 530 men or so by rough estimate, so call it 1600 men. Each battalion usually operates independently; sometimes Rangers are deployed in even smaller increments. Logistics are provided by the U.S. Army (generally) by way of the Special Operations Command. Note: other military special operations units are smaller than the Rangers, usually by at least an order of magnitude, and have correspondingly higher external logistics needs. While the question of logisitcal support is not usually the stuff of adventure fiction, having some idea of the kind of support the field agents will need, and where they get it, can help maintain some versimilitude. The FBI - to my knowledge, the largest of the Federal law enforcement agencies. The FBI's authorized strength back in 2002 was 11,000 Special Agents (field agents) and 15,000 support personnel. That should give you an idea of some real-world groups that you could scale PRIMUS against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS PRIMUS Silver Avengers... Underpowered? (by TheQuestionMan) http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52884&highlight=PRIMUS Fallen Avenger (by Peregrine) http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71869&highlight=PRIMUS Hmmm... QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted April 28, 2009 Report Share Posted April 28, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS PRIMUS Silver Avengers... Underpowered? (by TheQuestionMan) http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52884&highlight=PRIMUS Fallen Avenger (by Peregrine) http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71869&highlight=PRIMUS Hmmm... QM Yeah. I expounded at length in that first thread. Especially here. And the second one was exploring an NPC idea that I still have kicking around. I'm a huge PRIMUS fanboy. Does it show, much? Edit: On review, I was in error here. The Perseus treatment (the All-American, 1969 and following; six persons have borne the mantle of the All-American between 1969 and 2002; CU pp.37-39) is routinely repeatable and relatively predictable, the latter at least as regards the minimum results. And the Yeoman treatment (the original Ameriforce One, CU p. 40) actually produced low-level superhuman soldiers. Nothing is said about that treatment being either non-predictable or non-repeatable; as six Navy SEALs were the canonical recipients, neither predictability nor repeatability appear to be at issue there, either. Finally, CU (p. 43) also states specifically that Cyberline was developed by a PRIMUS researcher; given that (and the above), a PRIMUS monopoly on Cyberline is less objectionable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS JmOz, I like the idea a whole lot. I think having Gold, Silver and Bronze level Avengers makes a whole lot of sense. You might even have a super secret Platinum Avenger that gets activated only for Dr. Destoyer Level. I have used the Platinum avenger option as well. It is used for Players who: 1) are patriotic thru and thru. 2)like the idea of being a member of Primus They are off the normal grid of the chain of command, and answer to 2 people, the Leader of Primus( name slips my mind ATM), And directly to the POTUS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS I've used Primus quite a bit when I was running the 4th ed CU and did away with the treatment almost entirely (with Golden Avenger being the only recipient). Instead, the Silver Avengers were people specially trained by the GA to serve as his back-up team in hot situations, as well as Primus' elite guard. Each member of the SAs had a specialty and had higher rank than the average Primus shmoe. In addition, the Iron Guard were streamlined and eventually came to look more like The Guardsmen Armor than the clunkier armor that had been used before (patterned after one of the Defender armors). There were a few other branches opened as well, including a Psi Guard (to battle the threat of PSI), Eldrich Guard (against magic threats) and Star Guard (against alien threats). When C:NM came out, I took much of what they used as The Guard and incorporated the look and feel into what I'd done with Primus, evolving the group a bit into what became the agency known as "The Guard" and "Primus" which were elite and super agents of said organization ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Ops Posted April 29, 2009 Report Share Posted April 29, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS There is a E-Book about Primus (a bit dated now) and several Articles in Digital Hero. (Worth every buck in both cases...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS I have used the Platinum avenger option as well. It is used for Players who: 1) are patriotic thru and thru. 2)like the idea of being a member of Primus They are off the normal grid of the chain of command, and answer to 2 people, the Leader of Primus( name slips my mind ATM), And directly to the POTUS. For that type of agent, I prefer Grey Lens-, er, Avenger. And all Avengers officially report to the Golden Avenger, who reports to the Director of PRIMUS; taking the current GA out of that chain doesn't do all that much. Adding in direct report to POTUS, OTOH... Edit: Which reminds me that I had recently considered moving PRIMUS from DOJ to the Office of the President and having them absorb some of DOSPA's purview, specifically by having them act as coordinating agency (and test bed of choice) for all super-soldier and superhuman soldier projects in or participated in by the U.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS For that type of agent, I prefer Grey Lens-, er, Avenger. And all Avengers officially report to the Golden Avenger, who reports to the Director of PRIMUS; taking the current GA out of that chain doesn't do all that much. Adding in direct report to POTUS, OTOH... Edit: Which reminds me that I had recently considered moving PRIMUS from DOJ to the Office of the President and having them absorb some of DOSPA's purview, specifically by having them act as coordinating agency (and test bed of choice) for all super-soldier and superhuman soldier projects in or participated in by the U.S. that sounds like a good idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 Re: About PRIMUS So, JmOz, any help for you here? Want to share more of your ideas? fanboy> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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