TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

[GoldenAge]

Hi all!!!

 

I have a climactic battle against my PC's coming up...

 

The villain (Solbreaker) is a galactic despot of great power (a real team beater in my campaign). His primary powers are pretty simple:

 

-50 STR

-29 DEX

-6 SPEED

-40 PD/38ED - 18rPD/18rED (10/10 Hardened)

-80 STR TK (Fine Manipulation - manifests as classic Force manipulation)

- Force Wall 10PD/10ED; +12" Height or Length

-16d6 EB v. PD

- 30" Flight (Position Shift & Variable Advantage, No Visible Trail,

Underwater, Improved Accelerate, Zero End)

-Radar Sence, Telescopic Sight, Mental/Power/Flash Defense, KB/Damage

Resistance. Life Support. etc, etc, etc.

 

Now, I'm asking for some combat ideas. Despite Solbreaker's relative dominance compared to his opponents he'll be fighting 6 PC's each with attacks in the 10-14 DC range. Solbreaker will give a good showing, but wont be able to withstand the combined rush of the entire Epic Alliance (even though they're slightly injured from fighting his minions)

 

The diversity of TK is the real key here; Sweeps, Multiple Grabs, holding an enemy in reserve for abortive interposes/blocks, TK is Indirect (will work through Force Walls), whatever...

 

How would YOU utilize Solbreaker in a 6 on 1 fight???

 

Endurance is of no real concern (he has plenty) so I've considered Multiple Power Attacks as well as Spreading his EB, Bouncing his EB, Rapid Fire (can you do that with TK or is that just a ranged sweep???), Called Shots to Impaire and/or Disable...

 

This is supposed to be a very lethal battle (despite Solbreaker's lack of a dedicated KA - His EB does an average of 16 BODY anywho). The health of Epic Alliance ranges from "completely healthy" to "been beat to hell" but there is a healer within their ranks and I suspect that his first action will be to restore his heavy hitting associates.

 

 

Any Ideas? I'd like this to be an incredibly challenging battle for Epic Alliance!

 

 

I've attached a few pics of the battle map below.

 

The final clash takes place in the hull of Solbreaker's starship. In the middle of the map is a teleportation device. Surrounding the teleportation device are 4 large transmogrification generators that are dedicated to the conversion of Human bodies into a soupy DNA slurry (its a long story). Attached to the generators are pods for victims (think Matrix battery pods, but lethal) and along the hull walls are heroes held in stasis. The captured heroes are global victims of the Invasion and are completely unconscious (they can't help our heroes).

 

Thanks all!

[GoldenAge]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

A few more Map details and a pic of Solbreaker.

 

(NOTE: The ship is comprised of a red crystal-like core and stolen technology, thus the dominant and strange red floor surrounded by grey technology.

 

Detail 2 shows the stations where the invasion forces have been studying Earth paranormals.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

Grabbing a hero and then using him as a shield to block or slamming him into another hero would be good of course, but if he is facing a team of heroes, I would make sure that he has some large heavy objects about that he can grab and use as an area affect attack so that he can nail multiple heroes at once.

 

The other classic use of TK in combat is to throw a non-flying character way, way up, but that isn't an option here. But on a starship he might open up an airlock (since he has LS himself) and then use the TK to help the resulting vacuum suck the heroes into space. If that isn't an option, throwing the heroes into the transmogrification generators might work well, especially if they are stunned by being slammed in there and someone else has to pull them out before they are reduced to soup.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

Well, if END is not a concern, per the FAQ*, a character with TK can grab 1 opponent on one Phase, and on his next Phase he can maintain the 1st grab and also grab another opponent, rinse and repeat. He just has to be able to pay the END cost of each individual use of TK. So, even without any form of AOE or Multiple Limbs, TK has a built in 'one at a time multiple limb' aspect that just happens to be very END intensive.

 

That would probably be the most direct and brute force method he could use.

 

*

If a character uses his Telekinesis against multiple targets in successive Phases — in his first Phase he picks up Foxbat, in his next Phase a car (while continuing to hold Foxbat), in his next Phase an innocent bystander (while continuing to hold Foxbat and the car), and so on — does he get his standard maximum lifting capacity for each use of TK, or must he divide his maximum lift up among the multiple “liftees”?

 

Each separate use of TK allows for the exertion of up to the full STR of the TK on a separate target (though that also means paying the END, of course).

[matrix3]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

Well' date=' [u']if END is not a concern[/u], per the FAQ*, a character with TK can grab 1 opponent on one Phase, and on his next Phase he can maintain the 1st grab and also grab another opponent, rinse and repeat. He just has to be able to pay the END cost of each individual use of TK. So, even without any form of AOE or Multiple Limbs, TK has a built in 'one at a time multiple limb' aspect that just happens to be very END intensive.

 

That would probably be the most direct and brute force method he could use.

 

*

Wow...that could be really devastating...

 

I'm gonna have to use that...

 

It reminds me of an attack I was trying to work out once, but I ended up scrapping the NPC so I never got to try it out. A combo of Entangle and Flight UAA, which would leave the subject restrained in what appeared to be a soap bubble, floating in the breeze.

 

It looks like a great final battle, GoldenAge! Tell us how it goes.

[GoldenAge]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

Grabbing a hero and then using him as a shield to block or slamming him into another hero would be good of course, but if he is facing a team of heroes, I would make sure that he has some large heavy objects about that he can grab and use as an area affect attack so that he can nail multiple heroes at once.

 

The other classic use of TK in combat is to throw a non-flying character way, way up, but that isn't an option here. But on a starship he might open up an airlock (since he has LS himself) and then use the TK to help the resulting vacuum suck the heroes into space. If that isn't an option, throwing the heroes into the transmogrification generators might work well, especially if they are stunned by being slammed in there and someone else has to pull them out before they are reduced to soup.

 

Yah, trowing them into a blender IS tempting.

 

Unfortunately, the emulsification process takes time and a conscious character would probably be able to break free of the pods (which have 7 DEF and 7 BOD)

 

Thanks!

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

The aforementioned "grab one hero and use him to hit another" is always good, as you're causing damage to two heroes at once.

 

If there are any large, heavy objects that some of the heroes cannot lift or destroy or otherwise escape from quickly, he can drop those objects onto those individual heroes as AOE attacks. Drop a huge piece of machinery onto a martial artist, and (1) I'd think that hero would take continued damage from the weight of the thing pinning him to the ground, (2) he's at least temporarily out of the fight, and (3) it might require another hero to free the first one, therefore also taking that hero temporarily out of the fight.

 

The key, to me, is reducing it from 6-to-1 odds as often as you can and whittle down the heroes one by one.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

Yah, trowing them into a blender IS tempting.

 

Unfortunately, the emulsification process takes time and a conscious character would probably be able to break free of the pods (which have 7 DEF and 7 BOD)

 

Thanks!

 

But an unconscious character -- say, one of the NPC heroes -- getting thrown in would require a hero to save him.

 

Depending on how fast and how far the teleporter works, you could grab a hero, move him to the teleporter, and send him outside the ship. Until he makes his way back in (maybe having to fight his way back in AGAIN!), the odds are down to 5-to-1.

 

BTW, I love the maps. Way cool setup you have there.

[GoldenAge]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

But an unconscious character -- say, one of the NPC heroes -- getting thrown in would require a hero to save him.

 

Depending on how fast and how far the teleporter works, you could grab a hero, move him to the teleporter, and send him outside the ship. Until he makes his way back in (maybe having to fight his way back in AGAIN!), the odds are down to 5-to-1.

 

BTW, I love the maps. Way cool setup you have there.

Too true! An unconscious victim would work well on many levels (especially since the heroes already know how gruesome the emulsification process is...

 

The teleporter leads to specific locations on Earth where the invasion force has erected crystal towers complete with their own transmogrification generators. The tubes that lead from the teleporter to the ship's transmogrification generators feed pre-gooed humans from those Earthbound execution towers directly to the ships holding tanks.

 

And, in anticipation of just such a ploy by Solbreaker's minions the leader of Epic Alliance (Stardiver - there's a good reason his name sounds allot like Solbreaker) accessed the teleporter controls and shut it down. Pretty smart!

 

Good idea though!

[GoldenAge]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

Well' date=' [u']if END is not a concern[/u], per the FAQ*, a character with TK can grab 1 opponent on one Phase, and on his next Phase he can maintain the 1st grab and also grab another opponent, rinse and repeat. He just has to be able to pay the END cost of each individual use of TK. So, even without any form of AOE or Multiple Limbs, TK has a built in 'one at a time multiple limb' aspect that just happens to be very END intensive.

 

That would probably be the most direct and brute force method he could use.

 

*

Grabbing and holding is my fallback position for Solbreaker. Unfortunately for him (and he does NOT know this) Epic Alliance has a sorcerer who can teleport himself and others. We'll see what happens!

 

The grabbing of limbs to first impair and then disable sounds FUN!!!

[GoldenAge]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

The aforementioned "grab one hero and use him to hit another" is always good, as you're causing damage to two heroes at once.

 

If there are any large, heavy objects that some of the heroes cannot lift or destroy or otherwise escape from quickly, he can drop those objects onto those individual heroes as AOE attacks. Drop a huge piece of machinery onto a martial artist, and (1) I'd think that hero would take continued damage from the weight of the thing pinning him to the ground, (2) he's at least temporarily out of the fight, and (3) it might require another hero to free the first one, therefore also taking that hero temporarily out of the fight.

 

The key, to me, is reducing it from 6-to-1 odds as often as you can and whittle down the heroes one by one.

Yah, it'd be fun to grab their fliers or ranged attackers and slam them into Epic Alliance's earthbound armored character. I don't think it'd do enough damage to Mr. Steel to matter, but watching his compatriots being smashed to pulp against himself would cause untold amounts of psychological damage.

[DusterBoy]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

I had in mind using TK to disrupt the body's electrical and cardiovascular system, causing fits, heart attacks, an inability to breathe, etc.

 

O'course, using TK to slam people about and into things is good too.

[mattingly]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

Force Wall around Solbreaker and PC1. Bash PC1 until done.

[Balabanto]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

1) Solbreaker is well aware of this battlefield and knows it's advantages and disadvantages. The teleportation device can be used to his advantage as follows.

 

Pre: 12. Solbreaker has set the teleportation device to teleport the first PC into one of the transmogrification capsules. This shuts down the action of one PC and forces him to save PC 2, who is now helpless. That leaves four.

 

Combat starts, 1 PC is being transmogrified and someone will probably have to get them out, since the Martial Artist or Speedster probably lacks the strength necessary to escape.

 

Solbreaker promptly activates security protocols for the starship (Free, It's a computer with it's own INT), and deactivates one of the 4 transmogrifiers that the PC is not in. Now he has a transmogrifier device the size of a house in his telekinetic grip and it's got INNOCENTS inside it. He begins smashing the PC's with that. Don't let up with this. Force the PC's to rescue the people while he beats them down. This will cause at least two more people to either try to save the innocents or dive for cover.

 

The Computer resets the teleportation device for the center of the nearest star.

 

Phase 2: The teleportation device is now reset for the center of the nearest star. Solbreaker will pick up a transmogrifier capsule and try and sweep as many PC's into the teleportation device as possible. Remember, he needs to hit a hex. Just make sure he tells them that they'll be teleported into the sun.

 

The teleportation device now resets to the nearest totally uninhabitable planet.

 

Phase 4: Whoever is standing, and there shouldn't be many of them, gets to witness Solbreaker tossing the nearest hero without life support towards the teleportation device. Remember, this is a one-way ride, so once they're through, they're through. Someone will probably try to save this person, but someone is likely going to wind up on another planet, far from combat. He should pick the slowest hero possible.

 

Phase 6: This is the last transmogrifier device. Solbreaker gleefully throws it into the teleportation device and sends it on, full speed. 16d6 of physical damage from the hurled device plus teleportation scatter chart damage to anyone in the area of the transmogrifier device when it arrives.

 

The teleporter resets to teleport only Solbreaker out of the ship. As long as he's about a kilometer away, he should survive.

 

Phase 8: If there's anyone left standing by phase 8, congratulations, that's quite a lucky group of players you have there. Solbreaker flies to the teleporter and leaves. Activate Self Destruct.

 

Good luck.

 

Even if Solbreaker (For whatever reason) has the Teleportation Device shut down, he can still make use of it as long as he's only willing to teleport the heroes right outside the ship in front of the engines. Activate Thrusters! Oooh. Messy.

 

Remember, if one guy can shut it off, another guy can rewire it. And unless this guy's a total idiot, he's got dozens of goons trying to restart this system. What's this guy's INT, anyway?

[Zed-F]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

Remember' date=' if one guy can shut it off, another guy can rewire it. And unless this guy's a total idiot, he's got dozens of goons trying to restart this system. What's this guy's INT, anyway?[/quote']

No. This is not in-genre. You're taking away a Good Idea by the PC and saying 'sorry, won't work because I the GM say so!' Bad GM, no biscuit.

[Vox]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

This may go without saying, but having Fine Manipulation on his TK opens up a can of very nasty worms in the form of grabbing particular pieces of a hero's equipment/armor. The heroes who need foci are often the ones who can't resist an 80 STR grab. Does the aforementioned sorcerer have a staff? A crystal?

 

Depending on how smart Solbreaker is, very nasty things can happen without his even doing any damage to the heroes.

 

~Gabriel

[GoldenAge]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

Force Wall around Solbreaker and PC1. Bash PC1 until done.

 

Not only that but (END permitting) Solbreaker could Force Wall himself (which would move with him as he flew AND Force Wall an opponent. Then use his TK to bash the walled in hero (since TK is inherently indirect). Very dangerous!

[GoldenAge]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

This may go without saying, but having Fine Manipulation on his TK opens up a can of very nasty worms in the form of grabbing particular pieces of a hero's equipment/armor. The heroes who need foci are often the ones who can't resist an 80 STR grab. Does the aforementioned sorcerer have a staff? A crystal?

 

Depending on how smart Solbreaker is, very nasty things can happen without his even doing any damage to the heroes.

 

~Gabriel

 

I'll have to make a note to remember to take away foci! Thanks!!!

[GoldenAge]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

No. This is not in-genre. You're taking away a Good Idea by the PC and saying 'sorry' date=' won't work because I the GM say so!' Bad GM, no biscuit. [/quote']

 

Balabanto, That's a good script for kickin' som PC butt... But like Zed says, the heroes have already taken care of the teleportation device. Fortunately for the heroes, they used an AI to do it and it's more than smart enough to counter any ECCM that the ship's standard computer may attempt.

 

THANKS to both of you!!!

[GoldenAge]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

1) Remember' date=' if one guy can shut it off, another guy can rewire it. And unless this guy's a total idiot, he's got dozens of goons trying to restart this system. What's this guy's INT, anyway?[/quote']

 

This brings up an interesting aspect of this Invasion scenario... Solbreaker (as the PCs have discovered) is actually a synthezoid created from the DNA slurry of a dozen other conquered races. The real threat is the AI that resides in his bracers. It's the AI, working on it's last programmed orders, that has rebuilt a dead race of galactic conquerers. The AI is running the show and the physical manifestation of a long dead Solbreaker is really just something of a Frankenstein puppet. The AI, though highly intelligent, is not that creative (though this combat will be devastating and... THERE WILL BE BLOOD!).

 

The AI that the players used to shut down the teleporter is actually the benign doppleganger of Solbreaker's AI from another dimension, currently in possession of one of Epic City's greatest heroes Stardiver.

 

My games can get quite "Chris Claremont" convoluted at times.

 

Oh, and you can be certain that Balabanto's Phase 8 maneuver WILL happen as the evil AI seeks out a new host. Stardiver will then have a TRUE arch enemy!!!

 

Here's a pic of Stardiver to compare to the pic of Solbreaker above.

[GoldenAge]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

Y'know... Here is a PDF that describes the beginning of the Epic City: INVASION scenario, just in case anyone wants to read it.

 

...The ending has yet to be written.

[Balabanto]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

Uh, Zed, if I tell my PC's: This Starship is filled with hundreds of my minions and they don't have a good plan for dealing with the minions, then the minions shouldn't just sit there while they fight this guy and do whatever it is that minions do.

 

This is the difference between Drama and Melodrama. Superheroes do not have to have melodrama.

 

You're assuming that the villain

 

A) Does not possess an obscenely high intelligence to put in backup systems

 

Has no ordinary backup supply for his starship.

 

C) Has absolutely no information about the PC's whatsoever. The problem here is that clearly, he knows about their leader and what he might do! (See Golden Age's comment about how similar they are) I could understand it if some guy who WASN'T his hunted completely screwed the pooch on this, but not the guy who is OBVIOUSLY meant to be his archenemy. That's like having radiation powers and your evil Scientist archenemy not thinking of sending a guy in a cadmium coated suit after you.

 

D) He DOESN'T know that the PC's have a guy who can teleport on his own. So he's NOT going to pull that tactic on their teleporter because he can automatically resist it. (Once he sees it) This is not my NPC, but Golden said he wanted the MEANEST, NASTIEST THINGS you can do with this character. That means he's going to use every dirty trick in the book to win.

 

E) Yes, the PC's CAN outsmart a villain, but if I knew I was going to be attacking the villain on his starship, I would think of a creative way of getting the minions into escape pods and forcing the villain to abandon ship, and teleport himself to Earth, where MY SIDE has the advantage and he DOESN'T have galactic level weaponry. Unless the PCs have beaten EVERY thug on that ship, unless the PC's have gotten them all to surrender, there's no way that this Solbreaker guy is going to be less fearful to his own goons that he paid points for.

 

Villain: I'm on Earth? NO!

 

Hero: Yes, you are....KA-POW! (fighting ensues)

[Zed-F]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

I'm not assuming any of that.

 

Since The PC has had a Good Idea, and the GM has already said he could do it (and in fact has done it,) I'm giving the PC credit for taking obvious things like backup systems into account with his initial success. It's no harder to sabotage backup systems than it is to sabotage the primary system. I'm not going to take away his success by saying 'you prepared for the fight... but no you didn't really... and now you have to fight him without the preparations you already made! Mwahaha!'

 

Dealing with agents, if there are any, is a separate matter. They are one Complication, the teleporters are a separate Complication. If you want to invoke a sub-complication of 'backup systems', the appropriate time to introduce that sub-complication is when dealing with the Complication it relates to. It's not appropriate to bring it up after the Complication has already been declared successfully resolved. If you did bring it up and the PCs ignored it, then that's one thing, but if you didn't bring it up then you've given them their success; it's time to move on to other Complications.

 

There are plenty of mean and nasty things this guy can do without breaking a cardinal rule of GMing. The players are there to feel good about their PCs successes, not to have those successes stomped on by an overbearing GM.

[Balabanto]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

Who said that was a cardinal rule of GMing? YOU did. That's right. YOU. Not anyone else, for that matter. When I GM, I play the villain's intelligence score and his ability to come up with backup plans. If you're facing a guy with a 18 INT, you had better believe that the PC's will have to deal with a plan with multiple redundancies, backups, etc.

 

If you're facing a guy with an INT of 30, you had better hold on to your seat, because that guy will have so many backup plans and plans within plans that you will need a good one just to get in the door.

 

You are a Cinematic, Melodramatic GM, but that does not mean that everyone else always GM's the same way. There's a lot that goes on in my game that does work that way, but stating that there are rules of GMing that should never be broken? Well, you've got a lot of learning to do. I run 5-7 games a week, and I've done so for close to 25 years.

 

Do not EVER insult another GM and their GMing style, because obviously, mine works well enough to continuously retain my players. What you're doing creates a continuous, predictable trope, and eventually, your players will realize that the scenarios are always beatable the same way.

 

You also suffer from what I believe is known as "Full of Win Disease." People have forgotten this cardinal rule of comic books, because it's a superhero game.

 

Here it is. Ready?

 

Superhero games are NOT about wish fulfillment. Faithfully reproducing the superhero genre requires a lot of sportsmanship and understanding, because everyone in roleplaying, for about the past fifteen years or so, seems to have forgotten this key principle as far as superhero games are concerned.

 

It's okay to lose.

 

That's right. It's okay to lose. Unless everything is going to be totally obliterated if the PC's fail, and I do mean EVERYTHING, you have to be willing to take the good with the bad.

 

You want to run the kind of game you want to run, that's fine. But you have to have a little faith in your GM that they can faithfully reproduce the genre that you want.

 

It's okay to lose.

 

You have to CHALLENGE your players. You have to put them in the crucible and set their bloody ***es on fire. You have to make sure that things get desperate, that the clock is ticking, that everything actually depends on what they do....

 

BUT...

 

It's okay to lose.

 

As a player, you have to be a good sport. It's not all about a player having a good idea. If the idea is good, you have to ask yourself this question. Would the NPC have found a way to plug this hole? "Unfortunately, I already thought of that..." is just as much of a part of the genre as beating the villain up. And when that happens, the hero gets captured, the hero gets placed in a deathtrap, the hero gets replaced by his own clone for a few sessions.

 

It's okay to lose.

 

A hero is not about what happens when they win and look all bright and shiny. You can get that out of sports events.

 

A hero is about what happens when they get knocked down really hard and get back up.

 

That's when they shine the brightest.

[Zed-F]

Re: TK Techniques for a BIG FIGHT???

 

You are a Cinematic, Melodramatic GM, but that does not mean that everyone else always GM's the same way. There's a lot that goes on in my game that does work that way, but stating that there are rules of GMing that should never be broken? Well, you've got a lot of learning to do. I run 5-7 games a week, and I've done so for close to 25 years.

 

Do not EVER insult another GM and their GMing style, because obviously, mine works well enough to continuously retain my players. What you're doing creates a continuous, predictable trope, and eventually, your players will realize that the scenarios are always beatable the same way.

 

You also suffer from what I believe is known as "Full of Win Disease." People have forgotten this cardinal rule of comic books, because it's a superhero game.

It's rather amusing that you come to this conclusion, since nothing could be further from the truth. If you knew anything about my posting history on the boards, you would have realized this already.

 

 

That said, in your haste to assume and to use ad hominems, you've managed (again) to completely miss the point.

 

Yes, it's ok for the PCs to lose. Yes, it's ok for a smart badguy to have smart plans. I've had PCs lose because they didn't react intelligently to an opponent who had smart plans before. It will doubtless happen again. The PCs don't get an automatic free ride in my games, and I have been in games where that happens so I know the difference.

 

The point that seems to escape your attention is that you shouldn't invalidate the PCs' cleverness by assuming that the bad guy is cleverer than them. If the bad guy is clever, fine. Make up your bad guy's plans to whatever degree you feel is needed. Throw in whatever contingency plans he might reasonably come up with. And then let the PCs try to dismantle that structure in whatever way makes for a good story.

 

But when they succeed at taking a piece out of the structure of the bad guy's plans, that piece should stay out. If it's complicated to take said piece out, for instance because of backups or contingency plans, that's ok. You can give the PCs hints to that effect, letting them know their actions may have only been partly successful. If the bad guy is good at adapting on the fly, that's fine too -- so long as you give the PCs the opportunity to adapt to the bad guy's adaptations and ultimately have the potential to outmaneuver him. If the PCs can think of a way to further hamper the villain, great. If they can't, that's ok too... but the opportunity needs to have been there and not so thoroughly hidden by lack of GM exposition that it will come as a complete surprise later.

 

The point is not to make the bad guys dumb. The point is to reward the players for being smart, whether the GM thought of that particular way of being smart or not. There is a big difference.

 

If the players are smart, and you give them what they think is a reward, only to turn around and take it away from them when they need that reward, saying they weren't really smart after all... they will soon start to wonder why they bother trying to be smart in the first place. If you don't get that, then no amount of argument will convince you otherwise.