archermoo Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD My point is' date=' there was never a way to do 'AVLD vs life support', and since AVAD is supposed to replace NND, there needs to be a way of doing that (unless, for example, a typical NND becomes 'AVAD vs Power Defense, Not Vs Life Support')[/quote'] Do you think that this part of the OP: “No Normal Defense” is an additional Limitation defined basically as “all or nothing” (i.e.' date=' if you have the defense, you take no damage at all, rather than applying the defense to reduce the damage as usual).[/quote'] doesn't cover it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netzilla Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD The AVAD idea is certainly something I've thought about before' date=' it never made sense that NND was a +1 on a flash attack, for example. However, this suggests something has changed with life support, since life support was not a 'defense' before -- an attack which would be NND (LS) before now seems to be AVAD (???), all or nothing.[/quote'] As an equivalent to NND (LS), you'd be looking at AVAD (LS), All or Nothing. It would basically be required (by implication at least) that you put All or Nothing on any 'defense' that doesn't have a numeric value. All-in-all it makes for a much more flexible structure. It's one of the things I was hoping would be done back in the old 6E discussion threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted July 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Did Mr. Long actually come up with a "bulletproof idea?" No such thing in gaming. One of the great things about RPGing, and one that often makes it tough to market RPG products, is that there are a million different views out there about what's good or bad, what style of play is preferable, etc. Somewhere along the minutely-gradated spectrum there'll be someone who loves any idea, and someone who hates it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the Bruins Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Looks like an excellent new treatment to me. Is there going to be an automatic "Does No BODY" aspect to the AVAD advantage as currently applies to NNDs and AVLDs? Or will the advantage cost reflect a default inclusion of "Does BODY," with the option to only do STUN damage as a limitation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Do the limitations and advantages cancel each other out, or are they both applied separately? Example: Let's say you want a transform using MCV but with PD as defense. Let's say that using MCV instead of OCV is a 1/2 Advantage, and using PD instead of Power Defense is a -1 Limitation. Is it a net -1/2 limitation (1d6 Transform is still 15 Active but only 10 Real points) or are both applied separately (1d6 transform becomes 22 Active and 11 Real points)? This makes a big difference in the impact to the game system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Steve lists changing Combat Value and Changing Defenses as two separate Advantages, so they wouldn't add up and cancel out in that case, they would apply separately like any two different advantages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD On the whole I really like the idea. I'm a tiny bit worried that something might be lost from NND though. It sounds a bit like it must be defined as an existing form of defense now, whereas in Fifth Edition I could define a NND defense as, "Being insulated from the ground," or, "Having resistant defenses that cover the throat," or something to that effect. Is that now truly going to be limited to, "Having at least 1 point of such-and-such Defense?" Can every character become immune to all NND attacks by simply purchasing 1 point of each defense? I guess I'll have to wait and see, but I have a bad feeling about NND being restricted to a Limitation alone. :-S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtFool Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD She was a striking woman Energy Blast 10d6 ACV (Comeliness Combat Value) , AVAD (Comeliness Defesne) … Oh wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Steve lists changing Combat Value and Changing Defenses as two separate Advantages' date=' so they wouldn't add up and cancel out in that case, they would apply separately like any two different advantages.[/quote'] How about NND? Let's say it's AVAD Sight Flash Defense All or Nothing. Let's say Sight FD is +1 and All or Nothing is -1/2. Is 2d6 NND 20 active and 13 real, or 15 active and 15 real? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD On the whole I really like the idea. I'm a tiny bit worried that something might be lost from NND though. It sounds a bit like it must be defined as an existing form of defense now, whereas in Fifth Edition I could define a NND defense as, "Being insulated from the ground," or, "Having resistant defenses that cover the throat," or something to that effect. Is that now truly going to be limited to, "Having at least 1 point of such-and-such Defense?" Can every character become immune to all NND attacks by simply purchasing 1 point of each defense? I guess I'll have to wait and see, but I have a bad feeling about NND being restricted to a Limitation alone. :-S I don't see anything in what Steve wrote to indicate that the defenses for NND style AVADs will be anymore restricted than they currently are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamePhil Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Can every character become immune to all NND attacks by simply purchasing 1 point of each defense? I may be reading too much into the exact phrasing (then again, Steve is a lawyer), but notice this: "if you have the defense, you take no damage at all, rather than applying the defense to reduce the damage as usual" It's "defense", not "Defense" and by the rules Steve normally uses that means it's not a game mechanical term, such as "Defense Power". That, combined with the fact that I doubt seriously that Steve would make a rule that disallowed NND (defense is LS: Self-Contained Breathing) makes me think that this won't be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD On the whole I really like the idea. I'm a tiny bit worried that something might be lost from NND though. It sounds a bit like it must be defined as an existing form of defense now' date=' whereas in Fifth Edition I could define a NND defense as, "Being insulated from the ground," or, "Having resistant defenses that cover the throat," or something to that effect. Is that now truly going to be limited to, "Having at least 1 point of such-and-such Defense?" Can every character become immune to all NND attacks by simply purchasing 1 point of each defense?[/quote'] I'm pretty sure NND defenses will still be able to be defined the way they are currently. I think the commonality of defense refers to the condition rather than the specific Power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Interesting stuff Similar to some house rule I had in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Okay, this is more like it. I was starting to fear this would turn into a 6E rules thread without controversy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD The AVAD idea is certainly something I've thought about before' date=' it never made sense that NND was a +1 on a flash attack, for example. However, this suggests something has changed with life support, since life support was not a 'defense' before -- an attack which would be NND (LS) before now seems to be AVAD (???), all or nothing.[/quote'] I would expect the concept is that you can have Life Support as the defense, but would then make it "all or nothing" and would not be able to have, say, points in life support reduce the damage. This would also mean that the GM can look to his own campaign and decide that, for example, "need not breathe" is an uncommon defense, "immune to extreme heat" is rare and "immortality" is extremely rare, pricing NND's against each of these three defenses differently rather than having the binary choice of "it's +1" or "I reject this power". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD How about NND? Let's say it's AVAD Sight Flash Defense All or Nothing. Let's say Sight FD is +1 and All or Nothing is -1/2. Is 2d6 NND 20 active and 13 real, or 15 active and 15 real? I think All Or Nothing is Addative with AVAD, if I read Steve right since those are part of the same Advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I don't know. Like I said, I will wait and see. I just have a hard time believing that situational "defenses" will fit well into the scale with system-defined Defenses where NND is concerned. How common is, "Not touching the ground?" Seems pretty easy to achieve to me. Just about anyone can fly, climb on something, or even maybe jump at the right moment. Catch someone by surprise with the attack, however, or in a circumstance they can't protect themselves, and you can absolutely obliterate them with such an attack. And that's worth a Limitation? Maybe I'm just suffering new-concept shock. It's certainly Not What I am Used To. Heh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I don't know. Like I said' date=' I will wait and see. I just have a hard time believing that situational "defenses" will fit well into the scale with system-defined Defenses where NND is concerned. How common is, "Not touching the ground?" Seems pretty easy to achieve to me. Just about anyone can fly, climb on something, or even maybe jump at the right moment. Catch someone by surprise with the attack, however, or in a circumstance they can't protect themselves, and you can absolutely [i']obliterate[/i] them with such an attack. And that's worth a Limitation? Maybe I'm just suffering new-concept shock. It's certainly Not What I am Used To. Heh. Seems to me that it's less common than having PD and ED, so I'd call it at least "Uncommon". If the result is that an all or nothing power now has a +0 advantage and is easily avoided by anyone who knows the trick, I don't think that will devastate the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajackson Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I don't know. Like I said' date=' I will wait and see. I just have a hard time believing that situational "defenses" will fit well into the scale with system-defined Defenses where NND is concerned. How common is, "Not touching the ground?" Seems pretty easy to achieve to me.[/quote'] True, but it's not clear that's a legal NND even in 5e, so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I think there was some thought put into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I welcome the changes as they streamline the system that little bit more, asper the system design goals. You wanna know what's a big sigh of relief for me too? "Mental" Combat Value replacing "Ego" Combat Value, since it's no longer derived from EGO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GestaltBennie Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Looking over Prestidigator's examples, I suppose you could kluge it by defning the defense as "rED when not insulated" or "rPD when throat is protected", I do hope. however, that the solution Steve presents will be more elegant than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I welcome the changes as they streamline the system that little bit more, asper the system design goals. You wanna know what's a big sigh of relief for me too? "Mental" Combat Value replacing "Ego" Combat Value, since it's no longer derived from EGO. I don't remember Steve (or anyone else at Hero) mentioning streamlining the system as being a design goal. Could you provide a link to where he said that? Certainly his post on "Why We're Creating The 6th Edition" in the 6e forums doesn't mention it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD I don't remember Steve (or anyone else at Hero) mentioning streamlining the system as being a design goal. Could you provide a link to where he said that? Certainly his post on "Why We're Creating The 6th Edition" in the 6e forums doesn't mention it. This sounds a little along those lines: One of the things I’ve tried to do in 6E (and I think I succeeded ) is identify game elements that are largely similar, break them down into “pieces parts,” and rebuild them for greater flexibility and ease of use. You’ll see examples of this in several Showcases I expect, including this one. A couple such elements in 5E (and previous editions) are AVLD and NND.... ...but then again I guess reasonable people might differ in how they define, "streamline," so.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted July 2, 2009 Report Share Posted July 2, 2009 Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #1: ACV And AVAD Looking over Prestidigator's examples' date=' I suppose you could kluge it by defning the defense as "rED when not insulated" or "rPD when throat is protected", I do hope. however, that the solution Steve presents will be more elegant than that.[/quote'] As I mentioned before, I don't see anything in Steve's announcement that would lead me to believe that AVAD's will be any more limited in what can be a defense than NNDs are currently. If you define a defense for your AVAD that is an all or nothing kind of defense you just need to take the "All or nothing" Limitation on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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