Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

[Steve Long]

A Statement Of Purpose: As we build up to the release of 6E, I thought it would be fun to showcase something in the 6E rules that I think HERO fans will particularly like or find useful. The Sixth Edition Showcases won’t be lengthy or detail-filled, but hopefully they’ll whet your appetite for 6E. I plan to post one a week, though not necessarily on the same day each week.

 

Naturally, you’re welcome to discuss each Showcase to your heart’s content — praise it, complain about it, whatever you like. However, generally speaking, I’m not going to participate in the conversation or answer any questions. I’ll say pretty much all I want to say in each Showcase post.

 

So, on to this week’s showcase! The subject:

 

New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

Kids love different ways to hit other kids, so let’s take a look at new and interesting ways you can hit the other kids in 6E. Generally speaking, I’ve done a bit of re-arranging, and then added a few Combat Maneuvers that I think will make your games even better.

 

First, I’ve moved Blazing Away and Hurry to the Advanced Player’s Guide. They’re fun, but not crucial enough to leave in the core rules.

 

Second, in the interest of consistency and ease of learning, I’ve taken Rapid Fire, Sweep, and Multiple-Power Attack, broken ’em down into pieces parts, and recombined ’em into a single Standard Combat Maneuver, Multiple Attack. For the most part the basics are similar to Rapid Fire/Sweep — takes a Full Phase, halves DCV, -2 OCV per attack after the first — but it’s more open and flexible. It allows a character to, for example, use a HTH and Ranged attack as a Multiple Attack (“I stab him with my knife and then throw the knife at that other guy”, “I’m going to shoot that ninja with my flintlock pistol while slashing this one next to me with my cutlass”), or to use a Mental and non-Mental attack as one (“The psi-panther is clawing at you while simultaneously assaulting your mind”). Overall I think it will make combat more dynamic, flexible, and fun.

 

As for actual new Combat Maneuvers, 6E has: Choke, which allows one character to choke another (but isn’t as effective as Choke Hold); Shove, which allows one character to shove another one backward several meters; Strafe, which lets a character make a Ranged attack while moving (think of this as sorta-kinda like Move By for Ranged attacks); Throw, which takes all the rules for throwing objects and characters, puts them in one place, and harmonizes them; and Trip, which allows a character to knock another one down without having to Grab him (but doesn’t get damage bonuses from velocity like Martial Throw does).

 

On top of all that fun, a related thing I did was to examine and revise the rules for using objects as weapons, which are in the Environment chapter. First, the rules for the effects of the weight, balance, and size/shape of the object have been expanded and improved. Second, the way objects work as impromptu weapons has been updated. For the first time in HERO, it’s possible in some circumstances to do a little extra damage with an impromptu weapon, rather than just using it to exert STR damage.

 

(In a related note, objects now have PD and ED, rather than just DEF, which I think improves the verisimilitude of the game. This also applies to things like Entangles and Vehicles.)

 

Stay tuned, and next week I’ll talk about something else fun — maybe some more information on Advantages, or a new Power or two, or something else I think you’ll enjoy.

[Gary]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

Sounds good! I'm still a little concerned about rapid fire when using a NND or other nonstandard attack.

[Peregrine]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

Overall, nice.

 

1. Blazing Away/Hurry - no opinion. Them what wants to use 'em can; them what doesn't can ignore them more robustly.

 

2. Multiple Attack - Another case of consolidating different ways of doing similar things. This is a good thing to do in general, and I see no exception here.

 

3. New Combat Maneuvers - Nice. Very nice. Explicitly expands combat options for those who choose not to use Martial Maneuvers (campaign rule or character generation choice).

 

4. Revised Objects as Weapons - I hope this does not add significant complexity.

 

5. Objects have PD and ED - Given how a lot of folks prefer DEF to PD/ED, I anticipate a lot of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[Vondy]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

5. Objects have PD and ED - Given how a lot of folks prefer DEF to PD/ED' date=' I anticipate a lot of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.[/quote']

 

Its easy enough to house rule.

[Vondy]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

 

Second, in the interest of consistency and ease of learning, I’ve taken Rapid Fire, Sweep, and Multiple-Power Attack, broken ’em down into pieces parts, and recombined ’em into a single Standard Combat Maneuver, Multiple Attack. For the most part the basics are similar to Rapid Fire/Sweep — takes a Full Phase, halves DCV, -2 OCV per attack after the first — but it’s more open and flexible. It allows a character to, for example, use a HTH and Ranged attack as a Multiple Attack (“I stab him with my knife and then throw the knife at that other guy”, “I’m going to shoot that ninja with my flintlock pistol while slashing this one next to me with my cutlass”), or to use a Mental and non-Mental attack as one (“The psi-panther is clawing at you while simultaneously assaulting your mind”). Overall I think it will make combat more dynamic, flexible, and fun.

 

As for actual new Combat Maneuvers, 6E has: Choke, which allows one character to choke another (but isn’t as effective as Choke Hold); Shove, which allows one character to shove another one backward several meters; Strafe, which lets a character make a Ranged attack while moving (think of this as sorta-kinda like Move By for Ranged attacks); Throw, which takes all the rules for throwing objects and characters, puts them in one place, and harmonizes them; and Trip, which allows a character to knock another one down without having to Grab him (but doesn’t get damage bonuses from velocity like Martial Throw does).

 

Happiness.

[Peregrine]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

Its easy enough to house rule.

 

Always has been, actually. And I generally fall into the DEF camp, myself, since I usually set PD equal to ED unless a specific character concept indicates otherwise. But I'm not so married to pre-6e that I'm going to raise the kind of ruckus about changes that others have chosen to do. Their right; opinions and expressions thereof, de gustibus non est disputandum, etc. I'm just gonna roll with it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

4. Revised Objects as Weapons - I hope this does not add significant complexity.

 

5. Objects have PD and ED - Given how a lot of folks prefer DEF to PD/ED, I anticipate a lot of weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

4. Where SETAC could, we attempted to beat complexity out of the damage rules as much as possible. I'll leave judgement on whether the new rules are more, less, or equal complexity than the old - just to state that I think they're good solid rules to use.

 

5. Since DEF was really just rPD+rED, making them separate opens up options (now you can have a tough, but flammable object with high PD low ED), to keep "DEF" you just need to make them equal and label it DEF now. I don't think those that prefer DEF will see service interruption in this case.

[Jhamin]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

Second, in the interest of consistency and ease of learning, I’ve taken Rapid Fire, Sweep, and Multiple-Power Attack, broken ’em down into pieces parts, and recombined ’em into a single Standard Combat Maneuver, Multiple Attack.

 

Combining Rapid Fire & Sweep in a more flexible way is a great thing, but I'm a bit surprised that Multi-Power Attack was also included.

 

When 5th edition ended the great Linked debate by defining multi-power attacks explicitly it was (for some people) one of the biggest changes 5th had to offer.

 

I think it is probably a good idea to roll Multi-Power attacks into this new rule, but it will create a new wrinkle to consider when building multi-power attack based characters (and here I had just gotten used to them even existing) I know my players had really gotten used to buying multiple attack powers & blasting away.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

I like this so far... but a question: are PD and ED for objects, Entangles, and Vehicles resistant by default?

[Vondy]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

Always has been' date=' actually. And I generally fall into the DEF camp, myself, since I usually set PD equal to ED unless a specific character concept indicates otherwise. But I'm not so married to pre-6e that I'm going to raise the kind of ruckus about changes that others have chosen to do. Their right; opinions and expressions thereof, [i']de gustibus non est disputandum[/i], etc. I'm just gonna roll with it.

 

I've been doing DEF at a cost of 2:1 for some time now. I only parse them out where the concept requires it.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

I like the new combat maneuvers, and I am hoepful about the new multiple attack stuff.

 

Most of the maneuvers that are listed, we have been using houseruled versions of for years - built them as "0 point" martial arts maneuvers and made them everyman stuff.

[tarragon]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

It's not directly addressed in either direction so I could be worrying for naught, but...

 

If MPA's are now part of this process and become a full phase and 1/2 DCV has that just made the classic lighting bolt plus linked hearing flash slow and painful to use?

 

Perhaps linked becomes an exception, perhaps this all shakes out in the details we don't have.

 

LOOOOOONG!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

It's not directly addressed in either direction so I could be worrying for naught, but...

 

If MPA's are now part of this process and become a full phase and 1/2 DCV has that just made the classic lighting bolt plus linked hearing flash slow and painful to use?

 

Perhaps linked becomes an exception, perhaps this all shakes out in the details we don't have.

 

LOOOOOONG!

 

I would imagine that Rapid Attack could be applied to offset part of those penalties as it already does for Sweep and Rapid Fire.

 

Rapid Attack (Ranged)

(Hero System Fifth Edition Rule Book, page 47; Revised, page 68)

 

A character with this Combat Skill has a heightened ability to move in combat. Rapid Attack allows a character to make an attack with the Rapid Fire Combat Maneuver, or Autofire Skills as a Half Phase Action.

[Alibear]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

 

Second, in the interest of consistency and ease of learning, I’ve taken Rapid Fire, Sweep, and Multiple-Power Attack, broken ’em down into pieces parts, and recombined ’em into a single Standard Combat Maneuver, Multiple Attack. For the most part the basics are similar to Rapid Fire/Sweep — takes a Full Phase, halves DCV, -2 OCV per attack after the first — but it’s more open and flexible. It allows a character to, for example, use a HTH and Ranged attack as a Multiple Attack

 

And the Dark Force Dragon is born. Force attack, Breath Weapon, claw and bite. It's a phase 12 TPK just waiting to happen.

[archermoo]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

I would imagine that Rapid Attack could be applied to offset part of those penalties as it already does for Sweep and Rapid Fire.

 

Rapid Attack (Ranged)

(Hero System Fifth Edition Rule Book, page 47; Revised, page 68)

 

Though it doesn't get rid of the DCV penalty.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

Though it doesn't get rid of the DCV penalty.

 

First off, I don't like the idea of MPA's taking the same penalties as Rapid Fire and Sweep. I would prefer to differentiate between "Attack using Multiple Powers" and "Making Multiple Attacks".

 

However, Rapid Attack can presumably offset the full phase requirement. To the DCV issue, one could always buy +X DCV, only when using Rapid Fire. If X = your DCV, the halving becomes irrelevant.

 

Hopefully, it will be possible to buy PSL's that offset DCV penalties. That would make for a nice neat package.

[archermoo]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

First off' date=' I don't like the idea of MPA's taking the same penalties as Rapid Fire and Sweep. I would prefer to differentiate between "Attack using Multiple Powers" and "Making Multiple Attacks".[/quote']

 

Agreed. But then again I am also one of those people that saw the rules about MPAs in 5e as putting limitations on MPAs, rather than as adding them.

 

However' date=' Rapid Attack can presumably offset the full phase requirement. To the DCV issue, one could always buy +X DCV, only when using Rapid Fire. If X = your DCV, the halving becomes irrelevant.[/quote']

 

Yup. I was just noting that in and of itself Rapid Attack doesn't do anything for the DCV reduction.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

I agree with Archermoo and Hugh - MPA shouldn't be part of Rapid Fire/Sweep.

 

The 5E Rules put Limits on a maneuver that I could do better at a cost break and it annoyed me beyond all belief.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

I'm wondering about Multiple-Power Attack. If it is going to be a part of a Standard Maneuver that has to be performed, how does that affect all of the power constructs that are currently used with any relevant Maneuver? I mean, Linked Powers are just an example of a Multiple-Power Attack (you just can't use the limited Power in any other fashion), right? So can you still combine Powers in a normal Strike, a Haymaker, a Move By, etc.? I never viewed Multiple-Power Attack as a Maneuver, but as a basic rule for combining attack powers for use with any actual Maneuver.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

I see no reason why the rules for Sweep/Rapid Fire regarding multiple combat maneuvers/powers under 5E would change, and I see no reason why it wouldn't apply to Multiple Attacks under 6E as well if it is combined with them into a single Maneuver.

[Ice9]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

If MPA's are now part of this process and become a full phase and 1/2 DCV has that just made the classic lighting bolt plus linked hearing flash slow and painful to use?

Well, if Trigger works the same way in 6E, you could just put a Set Trigger, Resets as a Zero-Phase Action on the linked attack. Does cost more, though.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

I like the new maneuvers and really really like the pd/ed for objects. Maybe easy to house rule but I never have gotten around to sitting down and charting out objects PD/ED. Extra damage over STR with improvised weapons gets thumbs up. Good stuff.

[Edsel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

1. Blazing Away & Hurry. We rarely if ever use Blazing Away but Hurry is used with amazing frequency. It is a shame to see it move to another book, it should have stayed with the core. Rats.

 

2. Things like Rapid Fire and Sweep are actually used with much less frequency in our games than Hurry is. I hope that there is a penalty for trying two different sorts of attacks at once. For instance it just makes more sense for two melee attacks in a single phase to be less difficult than trying melee and ranged attacks at the same time. Actually I really don’t care too much for allowing that sort of mixing. I guess that comes from trying to maintain a certain level of verisimilitude in our heroic level games. Leaning against this change.

 

3. We make custom maneuvers all of the time using the current rules from Ultimate Martial Artist so this does not seem to be that much of a change. Indifferent.

 

4. Improvised weapons are easier handled, in my experience, on the fly without bothering to resort to finding rules for their use. This sounds like an added complication. No need to mess with the 5ER RAW in this case.

 

5. In almost all cases I would prefer to simply keep DEF for objects and not bother with it further. In odd circumstances where an unusual item is supposed to be better vs. Energy or Physical attacks I just slap a few points of armor on. I would have preferred to keep DEF.

 

Sadly another preview that leaves me underwhelmed.

[Sketchpad]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

Flexibility in combat is great ... can't wait to see the rules Steve

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #2: New Combat Maneuvers; Objects As Weapons

 

I see no reason why the rules for Sweep/Rapid Fire regarding multiple combat maneuvers/powers under 5E would change' date=' and I see no reason why it wouldn't apply to Multiple Attacks under 6E as well if it is combined with them into a single Maneuver.[/quote']

 

How about the fact that many, many, many power builds out there are built with multiple Powers, and thus using them is an example of a Multiple-Power Attack? If using any of those powers requires a Full Phase and puts you at 1/2 DCV and all of that, I see it as a very, very BAD THING, and a TERRIBLE idea for the system.