Superpowers in the Courthouse

[BobGreenwade]

In my supers world, I try to keep the laws as close to real-world laws as I can imagine. For example, assaulting someone with a superpower is the same as assaulting someone with your fists; the "martial artist's bare hands are legally deadly weapons" trope is (so I understand) fictional, so the same rule would hold true for a superpower that's natural to a person's body.

 

Similarly, any proposed "Superpowers Registration Act" would either die in committee, or be quickly ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court under the Equal Protection Clause.

 

This doesn't mean that someone with inherently dangerous powers, especially those "always on" or that create a non-deliberate danger to others, could roam free; the CDC and other agencies has the right and responsibility to restrict, restrain, and in other ways limit the damage such a person could do. But there are no limitations, in and of themselves, to someone having superhuman abilities. (At least, in the United States; elsewhere the laws may be, and probably are, rather different.)

 

That's not the part I'm seeking opinions on; consider it a given for the world, and regardless of your own opinions assume that it's the wisest course of action for purposes of discussion.

 

In the real world, it's illegal in Oregon to bring a weapon into any government-owned building. This includes the utilities office, the county health department, City Hall, the Courthouse, police headquarters, and the public library. I'm assuming the laws are similar in other jurisdictions, so this is a more or less global potential problem.

 

The result: technically, given only the above, it's completely legal for a person with a highly destructive superpower to enter a courthouse. Given how emotionally charged many proceedings can be even for people who aren't firsthand participants, what steps would the local authorites likely take to ensure the safety of people in the building?

 

I'd assume that no special steps would be taken in places like the library, utilities office, or health building, but probably some measures should be in place at City Hall, the County Courthouse, Police headquarters, and similar places where security would be a concern.

[Clonus]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

Well there's not much they can do, except have an increasing tendency to have the accused only there via telepresence if superpowers are involved in the case.

[sinanju]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

I agree with Clonus--you can reasonably* prohibit people bringing weapons into the courthouse. But you can't take away someone's martial arts skills, or his ability to generate blasts of flame or to lift railroad locomotives overhead.

 

So, in the absence of some kind of power-nullifying technology (the "drainers" in POWERS, for instance, that neutralize superpowers in interrogation rooms and so forth), either you hope for the best...or you bar people with superpowers from the courthouse. This becomes problematic when secret identities are involved. If getting into the courthouse involves an implicit or explicit statement (under penalty of perjury) that you do not possess such powers, it gets harder. Will law-abiding heroes with secret identities and innate superpowers (Iron Man can leave his armor at home) perjure themselves--or refuse to do so, possibly giving away their secret?

 

*I think the courthouse should be required to provide a weapons check ON SITE for people carrying legally, so you aren't forced to go unarmed on your way to/from the courthouse, or to leave your weapon in your vehicle.

[Tasha]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

I agree with Clonus--you can reasonably* prohibit people bringing weapons into the courthouse. But you can't take away someone's martial arts skills, or his ability to generate blasts of flame or to lift railroad locomotives overhead.

 

So, in the absence of some kind of power-nullifying technology (the "drainers" in POWERS, for instance, that neutralize superpowers in interrogation rooms and so forth), either you hope for the best...or you bar people with superpowers from the courthouse. This becomes problematic when secret identities are involved. If getting into the courthouse involves an implicit or explicit statement (under penalty of perjury) that you do not possess such powers, it gets harder. Will law-abiding heroes with secret identities and innate superpowers (Iron Man can leave his armor at home) perjure themselves--or refuse to do so, possibly giving away their secret?

 

*I think the courthouse should be required to provide a weapons check ON SITE for people carrying legally, so you aren't forced to go unarmed on your way to/from the courthouse, or to leave your weapon in your vehicle.

 

Perhaps you hit on something. Power Nullifers installed into each courtroom or perhaps the whole courthouse. It won't stop folk who have "Supertraining" as their power (or perhaps it could also dampen down Ki to tone down super martial artists). It would be akin to having the metal detectors at the doors. Justified by the chance of supercriminals busting into the courthouse to help others escape.

[OddHat]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

My own games have some of the same assumptions as yours, Bob, and I don't use Power Dampers as such as the SFX only really make any sense in a single-source setting (which I don't use).

 

As part of the back story of my campaign, a number of very public attacks were launched by Pulp era Masked Criminals in the 1920s & 30s to disrupt trials and intimidate judges and juries. This pattern was repeated again in the 50s as increasing numbers of Supers both came to trial and became publicly active.

 

So, court rooms in my setting don't look much at all like they look in the real world.

 

Many functions of the Court House have been moved to Municipal Services Buildings. These buildings hold the offices of Judges, meeting rooms, Jury selection areas, and all the other high-traffic areas of a standard court house. Actual trials, however, do not take place here.

 

Security entering the Court House proper is tight. You must be a judge, lawyer, police officer, witness, Court House employee, or have already been selected to sit on a jury or otherwise have been officially invited to enter. There is no right to observe a trial in which you are not directly involved within the Court House, but since the 1980s all trials may be observed via CCTV from rooms in the Municipal Services Building.

 

If anyone involved in the case is known to have Superpowers, the case may be moved to a Security Court; usually only one major city in each state houses these court houses, and security entering or moving within these places is similar to that encountered in a secure military facility, with multiple check points and heavily armed response teams.

 

If the Accused is believed to have Super abilities, he will be restrained and those abilities countered as much as possible. Sometimes this will involve asking Supers associated with Law Enforcement agencies to serve as extra security. Accused Super Criminals with powers that can not be countered even in a Security Court will be tried in absentia.

 

All of the above is incredibly expensive, and most of it was a source of political conflict when introduced, but the amount of damage caused by Super Criminals has caused the public at large to have little concern for the legal rights of Accused Supers.

[Yansuf]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

In my supers world' date=' I try to keep the laws as close to real-world laws as I can imagine. For example, assaulting someone with a superpower is the same as assaulting someone with your fists; the "martial artist's bare hands are legally deadly weapons" trope is (so I understand) fictional, [/quote']

 

Not exactly true. The "required to register their hands as deadly weapons" does not exist (in the US), but if a martial artist, professional boxer, etc. does assault someone they CAN be charged with assault with a deadly weapon, depending on the circumstances, and local laws. And anyone can be charged with attempted murder, even without a weapon, if the court (jury) can be convinced that the defendant was trying to kill.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

Not exactly true. The "required to register their hands as deadly weapons" does not exist (in the US)' date=' but if a martial artist, professional boxer, etc. does assault someone they CAN be charged with assault with a deadly weapon, depending on the circumstances, and local laws. And anyone can be charged with attempted murder, even without a weapon, if the court (jury) can be convinced that the defendant was trying to kill.[/quote']Thanks for the clarification on my poorly-worded statement. (I actually knew all that; I just expressed it badly.)

[poptoad]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

Perhaps you hit on something. Power Nullifers installed into each courtroom or perhaps the whole courthouse. It won't stop folk who have "Supertraining" as their power (or perhaps it could also dampen down Ki to tone down super martial artists). It would be akin to having the metal detectors at the doors. Justified by the chance of supercriminals busting into the courthouse to help others escape.

 

 

I've always hated this particular gimmick, because it implies that superpowers are somehow different from the "powers" we've all developed through evolution, like eyesight, hearing, or prehensile grip. To a jellyfish or a trilobite, these are superpowers. There's no "power nullifier" that going to be able to distinguish between natural abilities and superpowers, because the only differences are relative.

 

Guh. I hate that moment. "I've lost my powers!" And yet, miraculously, these people who've lost their powers are still able to run, scream, spit, scratch, and identify friends and foes at range by nothing but light.

[Ice9]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

Yeah, it works for settings where all superpowers have the same distinct source (psychic abilities, cosmic energy manipulation, magic), but in a setting where people are getting their powers from things like "extensive training", or "being an alien", or "made of living metal", it just doesn't work.

 

However, you could just conduct trials remotely, with the jury, judge, and accused all in separate facilities. Then the only thing you have to worry about is people with electric/radio powers screwing with the transmission, which is a specific effect that can be detected and blocked.

[Tasha]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

I've always hated this particular gimmick, because it implies that superpowers are somehow different from the "powers" we've all developed through evolution, like eyesight, hearing, or prehensile grip. To a jellyfish or a trilobite, these are superpowers. There's no "power nullifier" that going to be able to distinguish between natural abilities and superpowers, because the only differences are relative.

 

Guh. I hate that moment. "I've lost my powers!" And yet, miraculously, these people who've lost their powers are still able to run, scream, spit, scratch, and identify friends and foes at range by nothing but light.

 

It is a genre trope that Superpowers ARE suppressible. It seems to make sense that a device could be developed that disrupts what ever it is that triggers the super ability phenomena. I mentioned Ki disrupters that could somehow disrupt Martial Artist Ki abilities as well. It seems that with super gadgeteers and super mystics, those folk could help create devices that could weaken or out and out suppress all superhuman ability.

 

The big problem is that IF super powers aren't suppressible then Law Enforcement has BIG problems keeping Supercriminals contained. How do you keep criminals like Grond or the other extremely powerful non-focus users incarcerated when they finally are convicted for their crimes? You can't keep criminals sedated as many of them are immune to the sedatives and also some of them aren't even human. Having a "SuperMax"ish facility like Stronghold only works if you can keep the supers from breaking out. If Villians keep breaking out eventually the heroes are going to get sick of having to defend their family from the villain that they placed in jail a dozen times and do something unfortunately unheroic and tragic to said villain.

 

just what I think,

Tasha

[Yansuf]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

The big problem is that IF super powers aren't suppressible then Law Enforcement has BIG problems keeping Supercriminals contained. How do you keep criminals like Grond or the other extremely powerful non-focus users incarcerated when they finally are convicted for their crimes? You can't keep criminals sedated as many of them are immune to the sedatives and also some of them aren't even human. Having a "SuperMax"ish facility like Stronghold only works if you can keep the supers from breaking out. If Villians keep breaking out eventually the heroes are going to get sick of having to defend their family from the villain that they placed in jail a dozen times and do something unfortunately unheroic and tragic to said villain.

 

Well, there are very few powers that you cannot make a "supermax" prison hold (with Champions technology, such as FF that stops desolidified and teleportation); the problem is getting the prisoner to the prison.

But the problems are solvable for almost all supers. Assuming that you know what their powers are of course.

[OddHat]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

The big problem is that IF super powers aren't suppressible then Law Enforcement has BIG problems keeping Supercriminals contained. How do you keep criminals like Grond or the other extremely powerful non-focus users incarcerated when they finally are convicted for their crimes? You can't keep criminals sedated as many of them are immune to the sedatives and also some of them aren't even human. Having a "SuperMax"ish facility like Stronghold only works if you can keep the supers from breaking out.

 

Depends on the villain, and the setting.

 

In my own setting, many Supers can be held in a high security facility with special precautions taken to deal with their specific powers. Most Supers can be kept under control to some extent with drugs, once you find the right combination. In more extreme cases, Supers immune to the best combinations of drugs and cell design that can be come up with can sometimes be kept under control with surgically implanted gadgets, or through the intervention of government Supers with Mind Control and Psychic Surgery of one sort or another. Cryogenic containment is sometimes an option if all else fails.

 

As to how to deal with the rare Nigh-Omnipotent Writers/GMs Darlings, if you can catch them in the first place, time for a Government Mad Scientist or PC to take a crack at it.

 

I agree that revolving door prisons are a comic trope (and occasional real world problem) that can drive PCs to just kill defeated bad guys in some campaigns. So, I come up with ways for my own settings prison system to deal with Super inmates.

[sinanju]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

I've always hated this particular gimmick, because it implies that superpowers are somehow different from the "powers" we've all developed through evolution, like eyesight, hearing, or prehensile grip. To a jellyfish or a trilobite, these are superpowers. There's no "power nullifier" that going to be able to distinguish between natural abilities and superpowers, because the only differences are relative.

 

Guh. I hate that moment. "I've lost my powers!" And yet, miraculously, these people who've lost their powers are still able to run, scream, spit, scratch, and identify friends and foes at range by nothing but light.

 

Yeah. I mentioned the power nullifiers in the POWERS comic, but I agree with you. I hate that concept. I especially hate it when powers are presented as if they were a liquid you can quickly and easily transfer from one container (person) to another--and back again.

 

"He's stolen my powers!" ought to be as nonsensical as "He's stolen my sense of balance!" or "He's stolen my eyes!" The latter, admittedly, is technically possible--but neither painless, quick or easily reversed (if ever) and sure as heck doesn't give the thief the ability to use them....

[Naanomi]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

I agree, unless 'magic' is involved. 'Magic' can happily steal someone's sense of balance or what have you... powers included.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

I, too really hate the "Universal Power Nullifier" idea. Specific powers can be nullified in my world, or based on a narrow set of Special Effects, but magic would be required to just broadly nullify "all superpowers" (and even then only because there's a sort of "unified theory" about how and why they work).

 

The real issue, though, isn't with the supervillains being tried. It's easy enough, when a superpowered defendant is on trial, to hike security to the max. The problem is when someone's in the peanut gallery who might have a grudge against the defendant, or the prosecutor, or a witness, or the court recorder, or someone else on hand. That is scary time, in my mind.

[OddHat]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

I, too really hate the "Universal Power Nullifier" idea. Specific powers can be nullified in my world, or based on a narrow set of Special Effects, but magic would be required to just broadly nullify "all superpowers" (and even then only because there's a sort of "unified theory" about how and why they work).

 

The real issue, though, isn't with the supervillains being tried. It's easy enough, when a superpowered defendant is on trial, to hike security to the max. The problem is when someone's in the peanut gallery who might have a grudge against the defendant, or the prosecutor, or a witness, or the court recorder, or someone else on hand. That is scary time, in my mind.

 

Yup. That's why I went with CCTV for trials. The public still gets their right to observe the trial, but that observation takes place in a different building. It's still possible for someone to attack the trial as it happens, but it becomes that much harder.

[incrdbil]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

There's so much fun if one wanted to do a courtroom based hero game.

 

For example, we have The Citizen Informer. He has a natural telepathic ability, always on, area effect. When he goes out, he often comes into contact with citizens thinking about the crimes they have done. He then gives incredibly accurate tips to the local police. One day, he is 'outed' and is challenged in court. His response is that his ability is a natural sense to him--as much as a normal officers eyesight and hearing, or a police dogs sense of smell. To him, thoughts are in 'plain sight'--and he further counters that, as a private citizen, he isnt hindered by law enforcement limitations on obtaining evidence.

 

Just to up the ante, the Informer now starts attending public trials during testimony. He starts relaying to the defense and prosecution information about whenever any witness is lying. Shoud he be barred from the courtroom?

 

 

So, what is the Citzen Informer? Duitful citizen, or menance to the liberties of the public?

[pinecone]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

There's so much fun if one wanted to do a courtroom based hero game.

 

For example, we have The Citizen Informer. He has a natural telepathic ability, always on, area effect. When he goes out, he often comes into contact with citizens thinking about the crimes they have done. He then gives incredibly accurate tips to the local police. One day, he is 'outed' and is challenged in court. His response is that his ability is a natural sense to him--as much as a normal officers eyesight and hearing, or a police dogs sense of smell. To him, thoughts are in 'plain sight'--and he further counters that, as a private citizen, he isnt hindered by law enforcement limitations on obtaining evidence.

 

Just to up the ante, the Informer now starts attending public trials during testimony. He starts relaying to the defense and prosecution information about whenever any witness is lying. Shoud he be barred from the courtroom?

 

 

So, what is the Citzen Informer? Duitful citizen, or menance to the liberties of the public?

 

I wouldn't worry, he'll be dead within a week tops.....Cheney will do it if not someone else....

[pinecone]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

Yup. That's why I went with CCTV for trials. The public still gets their right to observe the trial' date=' but that observation takes place in a different building. It's still possible for someone to attack the trial as it happens, but it becomes that much harder.[/quote']

 

Some states already do hearings by CCTV to save on the cost of transportation...so it's established practice.

[NanDispute]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

*I think the courthouse should be required to provide a weapons check ON SITE for people carrying legally' date=' so you aren't forced to go unarmed on your way to/from the courthouse, or to leave your weapon in your vehicle.[/quote']

Every where I have lived, the law is "no weapons* in the building," but they don't check until you're inside the building. Which means they can confiscate it, and you can not ever, ever, ever get it back, and don't bother suing because the Federal Court of Appeals will agree with you losing it and the SCOTUSA won't hear the case; or they throw you in jail on a major felony charge. It's the same for city hall, the Federal Building (where all the Fed. agencies have their offices, etc.)

 

So you choices are: leave it at home, leave it in the car**, lose it, or go to jail.

 

 

 

 

 

*Defined as "you might possibly, theoretically hurt someone with that, if the officer who sees it can describe how it might happen and s/he says it's a weapon."

 

**In some jurisdictions, the "no weapon*" rule extends to the grounds of the courthouse/city hall/Federal Building/whatever. So leaving it in your car only works if the cops don't spot it.

[bubba smith]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

There's so much fun if one wanted to do a courtroom based hero game.

 

For example, we have The Citizen Informer. He has a natural telepathic ability, always on, area effect. When he goes out, he often comes into contact with citizens thinking about the crimes they have done. He then gives incredibly accurate tips to the local police. One day, he is 'outed' and is challenged in court. His response is that his ability is a natural sense to him--as much as a normal officers eyesight and hearing, or a police dogs sense of smell. To him, thoughts are in 'plain sight'--and he further counters that, as a private citizen, he isnt hindered by law enforcement limitations on obtaining evidence.

 

Just to up the ante, the Informer now starts attending public trials during testimony. He starts relaying to the defense and prosecution information about whenever any witness is lying. Shoud he be barred from the courtroom?

 

 

So, what is the Citzen Informer? Duitful citizen, or menance to the liberties of the public?

wel intentiond citizen i think also isn't pshycic phenomena considered hearsay threrefore inadmissible evidence

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

Some states already do hearings by CCTV to save on the cost of transportation...so it's established practice.

A very good point, that. It certainly would cut down on some of the potential problem I brought up.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

wel intentiond citizen i think also isn't pshycic phenomena considered hearsay threrefore inadmissible evidence

 

A tip from CI would still probably qualify as probable cause for a search.

[Yansuf]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

A tip from CI would still probably qualify as probable cause for a search.

 

It is, as long as that CI has proven reliable in the past.

[incrdbil]

Re: Superpowers in the Courthouse

 

wel intentiond citizen i think also isn't pshycic phenomena considered hearsay threrefore inadmissible evidence

 

I see no reason it would be hearsay evidence--its something directly observed by the witness, using a natural sense. It's not repeating somethign he ws told by another observer that he didnt see himself, so the hearsay exclusion wouldn't apply.