Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

I see this change as a logical expansion of the rule that allows strong characters to occasionally throw objects of opportunity at opponents.

 

Under the new rule it seems likely that when Strong-Dude picks up a car and hurls it at Ultragirl (without having paid points for a 'ranged' attack) she can now attempt to catch the thrown car or bat it away with another object like a car or lightpost (also without having paid points for the Deflection power).

 

I am sure there are more nuances to it than that but it seems like a balanced idea.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

yes I missed 1 thing about it being an every man skill and needing a focus

 

There is NO NEED for a "focus" - Where are you getting that from?!!?

[nexus]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

I see this change as a logical expansion of the rule that allows strong characters to occasionally throw objects of opportunity at opponents.

 

Under the new rule it seems likely that when Strong-Dude picks up a car and hurls it at Ultragirl (without having paid points for a 'ranged' attack) she can now attempt to catch the thrown car or bat it away with another object like a car or lightpost (also without having paid points for the Deflection power).

 

I am sure there are more nuances to it than that but it seems like a balanced idea.

 

It also means that Ultragirl and Strong Dude can attempt to bat aside Electro boy's Bolter Blast and all of them attempt to knock aside Lazaar's Death Beam if he has an object (or something appropriate).

 

I'd have to see how it all fits together (including the new weapons of opportunity rules and modifiers).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

I like the idea of Range based on Base Points. So Steve, before you go to press, you should change the second paragraph of the sample page:

 

"do not include these points in the Active Point calculation when determining the Power’s Range"

 

That should be "Base Points," not "Active Points".

 

The rest of the stuff I'll have to see the details on. It sounds OK, but I have to wonder, what's the utility difference between Blocking and Deflecting?

 

If a guy is shooting an arrow at me from 20 m away, I can either Deflect it at, say, the 10 m mark, or I can Block it when it comes within arm's reach. What's the real difference? Either way, I don't get hit by the arrow. But Deflection I have to pay points for, and Block I don't.

 

I trust that this will all be spelled out in the book.

[nexus]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

I like the idea of Range based on Base Points. So Steve, before you go to press, you should change the second paragraph of the sample page:

 

"do not include these points in the Active Point calculation when determining the Power’s Range"

 

That should be "Base Points," not "Active Points".

 

The rest of the stuff I'll have to see the details on. It sounds OK, but I have to wonder, what's the utility difference between Blocking and Deflecting?

 

If a guy is shooting an arrow at me from 20 m away, I can either Deflect it at, say, the 10 m mark, or I can Block it when it comes within arm's reach. What's the real difference? Either way, I don't get hit by the arrow. But Deflection I have to pay points for, and Block I don't.

 

I trust that this will all be spelled out in the book.

 

Maybe Deflect lets you protect other targets? That what I was assuming.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

Alright, finally got to check the sample page....

 

That's a sweet depiction of Clairsentience... best I've seen in any of the books IMO.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

There is NO NEED for a "focus" - Where are you getting that from?!!?

 

Probably from here:

 

.... by making one change to the combat rules: allow characters to Block Ranged attacks made against them. So' date=' now characters can do that, [b']though usually it requires a shield or some other implement[/b] (as the rules note, trying to Block laser beams with your bare hands tends to be a Very Bad Idea )....

[Vondy]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

I like the idea of missile deflection being a maneuver akin to block. I do not like the idea of it being an "everyman maneuver." In some cases it could be appropriate (grabbing a mirror to deflect lasers, a roman legionairres shield for arrows), but not every character can snatch arrows and spears from the air. For some characters that's not conceptually apropos. For others it is. Good and bad. I can roll with it. I may create a martial version of it and restrict the other to appropriate improvised foci and the like.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

Yeah - note the word USUALLY.

 

USUALLY =/= NEED.

 

Look it up, I'll wait.

 

You know what that line says to me?

 

In a Superheroic Game, you will most likely not need anything to attempt a Block - because you're a Superhero.

 

In a Pulp Game you can use unlikely items to try and block things (Lucky I had my cigarette case on me. . . .)

 

In a "realistic" game, you're going to need something "believable"

 

I see no wording AT ALL that says "and you're going to need an appropriate Focus of opportunity to use this Manuever" ANYWHERE.

 

And seriously - it bugs me to absolutely no end when things like this manage to get interpreted in such a jack-booted fashion for no bloody reason at all.

[jtelson]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

There is NO NEED for a "focus" - Where are you getting that from?!!?

 

I'd guess from the sentence "...allow characters to Block Ranged attacks made against them. So, now characters can do that, though usually it requires a shield or some other implement (as the rules note, trying to Block laser beams with your bare hands tends to be a Very Bad Idea )."

 

There seems to be a translation error occuring around the word 'Usually' causing it to be read as 'Pretty much all of the Time' and the phrase 'shield or some other implement' causing it to be read as 'Focus'.

 

I'm curious if HtH block will now also usually require..., which I would be fine with - I'm just curious.

[nexus]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

I'm curious if HtH block will now also usually require...

 

I certainly hope not.

[Beast]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

so if a super heroic character has been hit by a laser/bullet/ spitball that did body to them once already

then just puffing up their chest and pointing at their chin and being ready for the attack to block it with their good looks, is not a block to me(maybe bracing for knock back)

 

a Block is when something is interposed between the target and the attack(could be a body part more likely some kind of shield or improvised shield)

putting your hands up in the way and yelling"not in the face,not in the face for a thrown rock I can see as a block as your arms can take more shock and show more of an angle to the attack compared to your face

 

you want to block that laser/bullet/spitball that has already harmed you or something with near your defenses, better grab a manhole cover

 

using cover where you use the def and body of a nearby object and force the attack to have to blow through it first to then harm you would be a better mechanic

of course the attacker could try to either attack a part of the body not covered or bounce the attack from a direction not covered

 

 

Yeah - note the word USUALLY.

 

USUALLY =/= NEED.

 

Look it up, I'll wait.

 

You know what that line says to me?

 

In a Superheroic Game, you will most likely not need anything to attempt a Block - because you're a Superhero.

 

In a Pulp Game you can use unlikely items to try and block things (Lucky I had my cigarette case on me. . . .)

 

In a "realistic" game, you're going to need something "believable"

 

I see no wording AT ALL that says "and you're going to need an appropriate Focus of opportunity to use this Manuever" ANYWHERE.

 

And seriously - it bugs me to absolutely no end when things like this manage to get interpreted in such a jack-booted fashion for no bloody reason at all.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

I don't care how YOU interpret the word "block" .... because the Mechanics of the Maneuver Block are not the same thing.

 

And I care even less for your forced interpretation of what Steve's actual sentence was. He did not once use the word "need" in that description.

[The Main Man]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

Regardless, I wonder if the Range Modifier will affect Blocking Ranged Attacks, Deflection, or Reflection.

 

 

I will also add that I have already been using "Block Ranged Attacks" in my Dragonball campaign for going on a year now.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

DBZ characters routinely swat incoming energy blasts out of the way using their bare hands. Sometimes comic book characters do perform the equivalent of a "chest block" against a big EB (which is presumably worth a big PRE attack bonus), though those characters generally are of the very tough/nigh invulnerable variety.

 

So I'd say it's genre and archetype/concept-specific vis a vis whether an object is needed to deflect.

I don't think it'd be appropriate for the Hulk to snatch a bullet out of the air, but Quicksilver might be able to pull it off. Certainly Supes has done that more than once.

[nexus]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

DBZ characters routinely swat incoming energy blasts out of the way using their bare hands. Sometimes comic book characters do perform the equivalent of a "chest block" against a big EB (which is presumably worth a big PRE attack bonus), though those characters generally are of the very tough/nigh invulnerable variety.

 

So I'd say it's genre and archetype/concept-specific vis a vis whether an object is needed to deflect.

I don't think it'd be appropriate for the Hulk to snatch a bullet out of the air, but Quicksilver might be able to pull it off. Certainly Supes has done that more than once.

 

I agree. That's why I think it should be an ability that you have to pay for instead of innate. Unless it is a setting like DBZ where it's almost literally an "Everyman (Saiyan)" Power.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

Guys, it is usually a bad idea to try to block a sword with your bare hands too. I see this as no real different from that. I usually handle it by assigning a (large) penalty to the Block (difficult but not impossible, since you can get close enough to block the hilt or the attacker's body if you are really careful). That, or if the defender is willing to get hit anyway, allow the Block with no penalty and the effect is to simply allow the defender to choose the Hit Location that is affected rather than negating the attack.

 

I foresee doing something similar in 6E against Ranged attacks (provided the attacker isn't in HTH range). Most likely I'll use a VERY large penalty unless the defender has "something appropriate" with which to block. Like perhaps in the -10 (Extraordinary) range. And if it happens, it'll be a very interesting scenario to explain away dramatically as the GM.

 

Anyway, I'm interested to see the new rules. Sounds like it's becoming a lot more consistent. Yeah!

 

Oh, and I really like the artwork so far!

[gojira]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

This piece is one of a series of pieces that Storn did for us that tell an Urban Fantasy story he came up with. As you progress through the book you see the main character investigating a murder and eventually confronting the killer in mystical combat. It’s Very Cool.

 

 

Niiiiiiice! I had planned to start with the basic rule book, rather than for full rules (mostly just to space things out and go easy on the pocket book). This is Not Helping.

[Alibear]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

Guys, it is usually a bad idea to try to block a sword with your bare hands too. I see this as no real different from that. I usually handle it by assigning a (large) penalty to the Block (difficult but not impossible, since you can get close enough to block the hilt or the attacker's body if you are really careful). That, or if the defender is willing to get hit anyway, allow the Block with no penalty and the effect is to simply allow the defender to choose the Hit Location that is affected rather than negating the attack.

 

 

 

Well if I wanted to penalise that I'd say that weapon length already gives you a negative 2 when blocking a medium weapon barehanded.

[Vondy]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

Well if I wanted to penalise that I'd say that weapon length already gives you a negative 2 when blocking a medium weapon barehanded.

 

Blocking a sword is a little different than blocking a missile because you can step inside your attacker's reach and block the arm rather than the blade. For that the -2 modifier is apropos. But catching the blade between your palms without being cut...? That's a cinematic shtick rooted in character concept. It would require greater penalties. A character who could do that should probably be required to purchase penalty skill levels with an assigned special effect to represent such ability. The closest approximation for missiles is that you can use some sort of apropos object for cover (shield, metal plate, mirror). But catching arrows and spears (or bullets) in flight? That, again, is cinematic shtick rooted in character concept. Not everyone should be able to do it off the cuff, which this rule essentially allows. As a GM I'd require the PSLs and a concept based explanation for feats beyond using an object to block incoming attacks.

[Alibear]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

In a realistic game I'd just disallow it outright bit in a cinematic game I'd encourage that sort of thing wso would not apply any extra penalties.

[nexus]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

Guys' date=' it is usually a bad idea to try to block a sword with your bare hands too. I see this as no real different from that. I usually handle it by assigning a (large) penalty to the Block (difficult but not impossible, since you can get close enough to block the hilt or the attacker's body if you are really careful). [/quote']

 

That's a fair gm call for you to make but there is no default penalty for Blocking anything (currently). What's a good idea or bad idea varies from setting to setting, genre to genre as well as character to character. A character might do the cinematic "blade clapping" trick, bat/kick the weapon aside by the flat or any other stunt that would probably cost you a limb in real life or be impossible (I briefly focus my chi and harden my palm to bounce the blade.")

 

One of the things I like about Hero currently is that, as a universal system, it makes as few assumptions as possible about how each game is going to to work. Assumption being to defined as "coded into the core rules." For me it really depends on how it's phrased. IIRC, there is some additional notation to Block that says in a more realistic game the GM might want to assign penalties Block against weapons, exceedingly powerful attacks, etc. But also Block does not necessarily mean "parry". It can have other special effects. A "Block" might be a type of aggressive feint/dodge combo that unbalances the attacker and lets the defender act before them while they recover.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

Blocking a sword is a little different than blocking a missile because you can step inside your attacker's reach and block the arm rather than the blade. For that the -2 modifier is apropos. But catching the blade between your palms without being cut...? That's a cinematic shtick rooted in character concept. It would require greater penalties. A character who could do that should probably be required to purchase penalty skill levels with an assigned special effect to represent such ability. The closest approximation for missiles is that you can use some sort of apropos object for cover (shield' date=' metal plate, mirror). But catching arrows and spears (or bullets) in flight? That, again, is cinematic shtick rooted in character concept. Not everyone should be able to do it off the cuff, which this rule essentially allows. As a GM I'd require the PSLs and a concept based explanation for feats beyond using an object to block incoming attacks.[/quote']Obviously we haven't seen the numbers yet, but I suspect blocking ranged attacks in 6E is going to be pretty much like blocking HtH attacks in 5ER: Sometimes it's the best maneuver you can do; other times you'd be better off Dodging or Diving for cover.

 

Whether it's possible or justifiable for an individual character is going to be largely dependent on the genre and the character concept. Even without a light saber Darth Vader seemed to block Han Solo's blaster bolts pretty well in The Empire Strikes Back.

[GamePhil]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

He said that Blocking Ranged Attacks would usually require an object. I see nowhere that he said Blocking HTH attacks would usually require such.

[Vondy]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #4: Deflection, Reflection, And Range

 

Whether it's possible or justifiable for an individual character is going to be largely dependent on the genre and the character concept. Even without a light saber Darth Vader seemed to block Han Solo's blaster bolts pretty well in The Empire Strikes Back.

 

This is my problem with having it be a system default rather than an option applied, and tweaked, as needed. As soon as character concept plays into it, but you don't have to pay points for it, you end up with questions of fairness coming into play, as well as questions of narrative playability when characters who really have no justification for doing something try to leverage the rule anyways. I'm all for letting GMs make judgement calls, but this rule puts the GM in the position of being responsible for a rule that appears to be a little bit slippery in the first place. I haven't read the rule, of course. Its just been described to us. Nonetheless, I think there should be some sort of buy in for the more cinematic uses of this "everyman maneuver." My initial thoughts are a martial version or PSLs.