Fastest man alive

[Bloodstone]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

I don't ever remember Supes winning any of their events and all of them had a deadly serious reason to not hold back but anyway....

 

Clark never won, but he tied twice back in the day. These days is that it's not even close

 

Barry Allen died heroically saving all realities and Wally West struggled to live up to his legacy and developed 100X as much personality as Barry ever had/has.

 

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

I think the Flashes and Green Lanterns stayed at about their pre-Crisis power levels' date=' while Superman and all the other "strong" characters got a significant reduction. It wouldn't have bothered me to have a Flash edge out the Earth-1 Kryptonians in reaction time and ground speed, so Bart outdoing Emoboy Prime seems right enough.[/quote']

 

Wally West experienced a massive speed-drop post-Crisis, explicitly stated. A few story lines had him repeatedly pushing his limits to discover he was faster than he thought, e.g. against Vandal Savage and Prof. Zoom.

 

Like Kryptonians, the Green Lanterns stopped being planet-pushers post-Crisis. A couple of times Superman withstood ring-wielding Guy Gardner.

[quozaxx]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

OK, it looks like the Flash wins...

 

But which one?

[fbdaury]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

OK, it looks like the Flash wins...

 

But which one?

 

Wally West, hands down...

[GoldenAge]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

After his stay in the Speed Force (and his Black Racer incident) we may see a palpable power increase for Barry.

[fbdaury]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

After his stay in the Speed Force (and his Black Racer incident) we may see a palpable power increase for Barry.

 

Yeah, but Wally has years of expeience on Barry now and he's also the most experienced currently with the Speed Force, at least until Max Mercury comes back out of the Speed Zone.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

Yeah' date=' but Wally has years of expeience on Barry now and he's also the most experienced currently with the Speed Force, at least until Max Mercury comes back out of the Speed Zone.[/quote']

 

Now see, I just don't buy this...

 

First, let me say I'm a HUGE fan of Wally's. I've followed his career (and own most [if not all] of his appearances since Teen Titans #1 in 1980)> I love this guy... (but love/hate the whole family gig he's bogged down in now). It's true that the Speed Force originated as a written concept in the mid 90's during Wally's reign as the Flash. As such, Wally became the prime Speed Force avatar (while all other speedsters were retrofitted with varying levels of Speed Force connection)...

 

But I didn't start reading comics in the 80's. I've been buying them since I was 7 (1974). And one of my very favorites has always been Barry Allen - The Flash! I own hundreds of Silver Age comics wherein the Flash (Barry) does astounding things. Sure, they're never attributed to the Speed Force but Pre-Crisis Barry's use of his speed powers was amazing!

 

By "Years of experience" I can only assume that you're referring to his use of the Speed Force (since Barry was the Flash from 1956 - 1985 giving him 29 years as the Flash vs. Wally's 22 years). True, Wally grew into the power, but most of that time he was just a kid. And even as an adult Wally's a dim bulb compared to Barry.

 

Now, no disrespect to Wally, but you can hardly discount Barry's "Speed Force" manipulation simply because it didn't exist when he was the Flash. He did more, more heroically than Wally ever has.

 

I'm really happy that Barry finally gets to be developed by modern writers in a comic culture of in-depth personal growth.

[fbdaury]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

Now see, I just don't buy this...

 

First, let me say I'm a HUGE fan of Wally's. I've followed his career (and own most [if not all] of his appearances since Teen Titans #1 in 1980)> I love this guy... (but love/hate the whole family gig he's bogged down in now). It's true that the Speed Force originated as a written concept in the mid 90's during Wally's reign as the Flash. As such, Wally became the prime Speed Force avatar (while all other speedsters were retrofitted with varying levels of Speed Force connection)...

 

But I didn't start reading comics in the 80's. I've been buying them since I was 7 (1974). And one of my very favorites has always been Barry Allen - The Flash! I own hundreds of Silver Age comics wherein the Flash (Barry) does astounding things. Sure, they're never attributed to the Speed Force but Pre-Crisis Barry's use of his speed powers was amazing!

 

By "Years of experience" I can only assume that you're referring to his use of the Speed Force (since Barry was the Flash from 1956 - 1985 giving him 29 years as the Flash vs. Wally's 22 years). True, Wally grew into the power, but most of that time he was just a kid. And even as an adult Wally's a dim bulb compared to Barry.

 

Now, no disrespect to Wally, but you can hardly discount Barry's "Speed Force" manipulation simply because it didn't exist when he was the Flash. He did more, more heroically than Wally ever has.

 

I'm really happy that Barry finally gets to be developed by modern writers in a comic culture of in-depth personal growth.

 

Yes, but keep in mind that those 29 years of Barry comics are actually only about 5 years of DC's timeline, which is about 15 years long or so, and the past 24 years of comics have taken up more actual time of that actual DC timeline- Wally has been a speedster since he was about 10 or 11 and is now in his mid to late 20s, which makes him more experienced than Barry, who has about 10 years of Flash experience, time which Wally was also active as the Kid Flash.

 

So yes, Wally would still have more experience than Barry- I'm not discounting all that Barry did, but Wally was around for some of it and has since gone on to do far more with his speed than Barry ever did. Wally has learned new tricks that Barry never even thought of trying, liking adding speed to others.

[OddHat]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

Yes, but keep in mind that those 29 years of Barry comics are actually only about 5 years of DC's timeline, which is about 15 years long or so, and the past 24 years of comics have taken up more actual time of that actual DC timeline- Wally has been a speedster since he was about 10 or 11 and is now in his mid to late 20s, which makes him more experienced than Barry, who has about 10 years of Flash experience, time which Wally was also active as the Kid Flash.

 

So yes, Wally would still have more experience than Barry- I'm not discounting all that Barry did, but Wally was around for some of it and has since gone on to do far more with his speed than Barry ever did. Wally has learned new tricks that Barry never even thought of trying, liking adding speed to others.

 

I'm never all that concerned about the DC or Marvel timelines. Both settings reboot, retcon, feature alternate universes and imaginary stories (cue "They're all imaginary stories"), screw up, and most importantly multiple writers who don't pay any more attention to continuity than they feel like at the moment.

 

Barry was My Flash. So, he's the fastest Flash, unless I really like a storyline that says otherwise.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

(cue "They're all imaginary stories")

 

WHAT!?!

 

 

[GoldenAge]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

Yes, but keep in mind that those 29 years of Barry comics are actually only about 5 years of DC's timeline, which is about 15 years long or so, and the past 24 years of comics have taken up more actual time of that actual DC timeline- Wally has been a speedster since he was about 10 or 11 and is now in his mid to late 20s, which makes him more experienced than Barry, who has about 10 years of Flash experience, time which Wally was also active as the Kid Flash.

 

So yes, Wally would still have more experience than Barry- I'm not discounting all that Barry did, but Wally was around for some of it and has since gone on to do far more with his speed than Barry ever did. Wally has learned new tricks that Barry never even thought of trying, liking adding speed to others.

 

By those standards Jay Garrick is far and away the most experienced Flash.... Endlessly fighting in Limbo to forestal Ragnarok and all.

 

I go by publication time and numbers of adventures.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

The fastest man alive?

 

Whoever Geoff Johns says it is

[fbdaury]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

The fastest man alive?

 

Whoever Geoff Johns says it is

 

 

Johns is a hack... he should let dead heroes STAY dead.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

Johns is a hack... he should let dead heroes STAY dead.

 

If the resurrection of dead heroes is some sort of metric, then most of the best writers in the industry were hacks... Or is there something else he does that makes you consider him a hack?

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

I'm never all that concerned about the DC or Marvel timelines. Both settings reboot, retcon, feature alternate universes and imaginary stories (cue "They're all imaginary stories"), screw up, and most importantly multiple writers who don't pay any more attention to continuity than they feel like at the moment.

 

Barry was My Flash. So, he's the fastest Flash, unless I really like a storyline that says otherwise.

 

I understand. Although on my part, While I read Barry's adventures for years he was always just OK. Mile Baron's run on Wally Flash,the TAS Flash and the way we saw Wally grow into his role made wally My Flash. I'd actually rather him and all of them be a little less fast but like Baron the writers actually try to understand what can be done with that speed.

 

Actually I could apply the same principle to all superheroes if I had my way.

 

 

And I can't help myself. I have to mention I really really really hate the speed force.

[matrix3]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

I find it interesting that there's a "speed force" that has come to power most, if not all, speedsters (at least, retroactively), but no "strength force" to power bricks, or "mind force" to power mentalists. I wonder why? Just the vagaries of writing?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

I find it interesting that there's a "speed force" that has come to power most' date=' if not all, speedsters (at least, retroactively), but no "strength force" to power bricks, or "mind force" to power mentalists. I wonder why? Just the vagaries of writing?[/quote']

 

It's the physics bending/breaking nature of super speed.

 

Mental Powers are inherently unreal, so there's no need to whip up a universal handwavium for it. People will (generally) just accept that it works however you say it does cause it's essentially "magic".

 

Super Strength has similar problems as Super Speed, but:

 

-many of those problems are solved by the relative toughness of the character with Super Strength. Flash Family members were always essentially normal humans that moved at ridiculous speeds. None of them have the physiological adaptations for super speed that a character like Superman or even Quicksilver has.

 

- Super Strength has gotten weaker. Superman used to push planets around with no long term effects. By contrast, Super Speed has (arguably) gotten faster.

 

- A lot more people seem to just accept/ignore when a really strong character is bending/breaking physics, so long as it doesn't get too "silly".

[Naanomi]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

it works however you say it does cause it's essentially "magic".

 

Which, interestingly, almost all 'Speedsters' in DC who don't use speedforce use magic.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

Which' date=' interestingly, almost all 'Speedsters' in DC who don't use speedforce use magic.[/quote']

 

Quite a few of them do, but you also have plenty of aliens that have super speed as a racial ability (Kryptonians, Martians, Daxamites)

 

And then you have guys like Zoom, who manipulate time.

[fbdaury]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

If the resurrection of dead heroes is some sort of metric' date=' then most of the best writers in the industry were hacks... Or is there something else he does that makes you consider him a hack?[/quote']

 

That's the majority of what he does, from most of what I've seen of his work...

[csyphrett]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

The Flashes have always been a step ahead of their respective Supermen.

 

As far as Geoff Johns goes, I give him props for stating that he would rather dump a character's history, change anything, impose whatever personality, rewrite any story, as long as his story came out the way he wanted.

CES

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

As far as Geoff Johns goes' date=' I give him props for stating that he would rather dump a character's history, change anything, impose whatever personality, rewrite any story, as long as his story came out the way he wanted.[/quote']

You give him props for that? That sounds like the most self-centered, arrogant type of writing possible in a comic book. It ignores not only all former writers and their efforts, but the fans who have stuck with a love a character for what they represent and what they have been through. I know continuity in comics is torn to shreds already, but to just blatantly say that nothing anyone else has ever written for the character is as important as telling your story? God, I'd tell him to go write a book and stop effing up the characters.

[csyphrett]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

You give him props for that? That sounds like the most self-centered, arrogant type of writing possible in a comic book. It ignores not only all former writers and their efforts, but the fans who have stuck with a love a character for what they represent and what they have been through. I know continuity in comics is torn to shreds already, but to just blatantly say that nothing anyone else has ever written for the character is as important as telling your story? God, I'd tell him to go write a book and stop effing up the characters.

 

Yep because most writers lie and tell you how much they love the characters they are about rape.

 

To paraphrase Wanda Sykes:

"You can love the character, but don't loooooove the character."

 

CES

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

I found it interesting when Wally West's Flash came to Marvel Earth during the JLA/Avengers crossover, and painfully discovered that that world has no Speed Force. I almost wish they could have played up his powerlessness a bit more. Quicksilver's resentment over Flash being faster was also amusing; if Quicksilver had succeeded in his efforts to access the Speed Force, that might have been something to behold.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Fastest man alive

 

Many writers actually do care for the characters and attempt to carry them in a positive direction. Of course, they may see the last writer’s direction as negative. There will be conflict. Continuity will be broken, no matter how careful you are, because it is already broken and it is basically impossible to now keep anything accurate. There is a difference between a bad writer who likes the character trying to do something new and an egotistical jackass saying his vision trumps everything else ever written.

 

EDIT

P.S. Sorry if I’m coming across as strong, but that attitude from a comic author is really disturbing. Whether they like it or not, comic books are a collaboration, not only between the writer/artists/editors, but between current and past and, to some extent, future creators.

I can understand screwing up a character out of ignorance. It’s impossible for every writer to know everything from 30 or 40+ years of a character. Some writers have fanboy syndrome when dealing with characters they grew up with. They have the character do things they always thought would be cool, even though they are incongruous with the current character. Some writers are just bad writers. Some may just not care.

If Johns actually said what you said he did, it goes beyond not caring. First, it is bad writing. I have no problem with a character’s personality going through changes, it is called character development. “Impose whatever personality” does not sound like character development. It sounds like having the character blatantly act “out of character” for no good reason. That’s bad writing in any genre and any format. “Change anything”. Emphasis mine. Change ANYTHING. This is crap. It’s why we had some of the worse retcons in comic history. Authors willing to change, literally anything, to tell their story are not good collaborative writers. Period. The fact that the writer has the audacity to rub the fact that they simply don’t care in the readers face is not an endearing thing for most people.

Secondly, it’s arrogant and selfish. “As long as his story came out the way he wanted.” Yes, every writer wants their story to turn out how they envision it. But again, I emphasize the collaborative nature of comic books and the superhero genre in particular. If you have a story you want to tell, than find an outlet to tell it. If you want to explore an untouched aspect of a character, fine, do it through character development bringing the character to that point, not by bludgeoning the character into something that doesn’t resemble any of his most recent incarnations. If you have a story that doesn’t fit they character, then don’t tell it with that character. If you have a great idea that doesn’t fit in the company’s Universe without seriously freakin’ up everything as we know it, then go write a book and don’t force it into a place it doesn’t belong. I seriously have trouble understanding that level of arrogance from someone working in a collaborative art form.