6th Edition Question: New Powers?

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

Waitaminute! Are you saying that negative Adjustment Powers are no longer cumulative? A 4d6 Drain can never remove more than 24 points no matter how many times you hit someone with it?

 

Note the key placement of the term "positive".

 

I think a workaround on the maximum effect rule for positive adjustment powers would be something like this:

+1d6 Aid, only to increase maximum effect (i.e., the die roll isn't added to the total aid when rolling, it just adds 6 to the max effect achievable), which I think would probably be a -1 limitation.

It would also mirror the old cost structure, +2 points to aid max per character point.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

Not in the least. Cumulative on negative adjusting Adjustment Powers is different. The rules there have not changed. Generally it means that Cumulative Drain has to reach a certain level before it takes effect.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

Not in the least. Cumulative on negative adjusting Adjustment Powers is different. The rules there have not changed. Generally it means that Cumulative Drain has to reach a certain level before it takes effect.

So Cumulative is a Limitation when applied to negaitve Adjustment Powers?

 

What I want to know is, to what can the following Advantage apply:

 

"Cumulative [page 328 of 6thV1 PDF] does state this: 2x the amount of points that can be added for each additional +1/4. This means for +1/4 you can increase the maximum accumulated from equal to the max you can roll with the dice to twice than, +1/2 to 4x that, etc."

 

given that (1) it can't be applied to positive Adjustment Powers, and (2) negative Adjustment Powers are already unlimited in how much they can accumulate?

[tesuji]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

the example powers used for cumulative are dispel and mental powers. both of these are pretty much "instant" kind of effect, roll once and take result, not cumulative at all to begin with.

[Beast]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

it is sounding that you can have the amount you roll stack to over come any defenses

 

4d6 attack with cumulative(1 level) maxes at 24 pts

verse say 10 power def

1st roll does 14 points,so 4 pts gets through

2nd roll does 14 pts,so 12 pts get through(total of 28 rolled so far)4 pts roll over to start the next 24 pt cycle

extra levels increase the size of the damage pool before it needs to cycle again

 

 

So Cumulative is a Limitation when applied to negaitve Adjustment Powers?

 

What I want to know is, to what can the following Advantage apply:

 

"Cumulative [page 328 of 6thV1 PDF] does state this: 2x the amount of points that can be added for each additional +1/4. This means for +1/4 you can increase the maximum accumulated from equal to the max you can roll with the dice to twice than, +1/2 to 4x that, etc."

 

given that (1) it can't be applied to positive Adjustment Powers, and (2) negative Adjustment Powers are already unlimited in how much they can accumulate?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

the example powers used for cumulative are dispel

Well that can't be right. That just makes Dispel into a weak Drain.

 

and mental powers. both of these are pretty much "instant" kind of effect, roll once and take result, not cumulative at all to begin with.

That can't be right either, because according to the quote, it accumulates points, which isn't quite the same for Mental Powers (though they also have their own version of Cumulative).

 

it is sounding that you can have the amount you roll stack to over come any defenses

 

4d6 attack with cumulative(1 level) maxes at 24 pts

verse say 10 power def

1st roll does 14 points,so 4 pts gets through

2nd roll does 14 pts,so 12 pts get through(total of 28 rolled so far)4 pts roll over to start the next 24 pt cycle

extra levels increase the size of the damage pool before it needs to cycle again

And that certainly can't be right, because it means you get NO defenses after the first point of effect gets through.

 

Extra Dice with the -1 Limitation "Only to Increase the Maximum Effect" costs exactly the same as increasing the maximum effect did in 5th.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

Is seems to correlate quite well to me.

 

Regenerating guy spends 16 points on 1 BODY Regen/turn.

Defensive guy spends 15 points on 5 PD/5 ED armor.

 

Enemy has 2d6 HKA (up to 4d6 w/STR, but lets say it's only 2d6 total).

 

RG and DG both take a hit. RG takes 7 BODY and gets it all back in 7 turns. DG takes 2 BODY and gets it back in a few weeks.

 

And when you have another fight 10 minutes later (not 2 weeks) as you go deeper into the dungeon RG as at full health and DG is down 2 BODY

 

RG and DG both take 2 hits. RG takes 14 BODY and gets it all back in 14 turns. DG takes 4 BODY and gets it back in about a month.

 

Then when there is a fight 3 days later RG is at full health but DG is down 4 BODY. Later that day DG is now down 6 body while RG is at full (they both got hit again) when they find the undead “end boss” of the story arch. Now who’s more likely to survive? The guy at 10 BODY or the guy at 4 BODY (assuming neither of them bought their BODY up)?

 

RG and DG both take 4 hits. RG takes 28 BODY and gets it all back in 28 turns. DG takes 8 BODY and gets it all back in about 2 months.

Except you have 10 – 15 more fights that month (if not several in the same day).

 

DG will survive. RG probably won't.

 

Well, if RG is taking that many hits when he doesn’t have the defenses to handle them maybe there is a bigger problem with character design. If he does survive, however, he will be back to full Body in a matter of minutes, while DG will get nickeled and dimed until he dies half way through the month.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

Well' date=' if RG is taking that many hits when he doesn’t have the defenses to handle them maybe there is a bigger problem with character design. If he does survive, however, he will be back to full Body in a matter of minutes, while DG will get nickeled and dimed until he dies half way through the month.[/quote']

And if he does have the defenses to handle them, DG won't be taking any BODY damage at all! (Give them each another, say +5 rDEF for 15 points)

 

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. So if the price of that ounce of prevention only buys an ounce of cure, the prevention is the better buy.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

You conveniently ignore the rest of my post which pretty much illustrates that your point is nonsense.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

You conveniently ignore the rest of my post which pretty much illustrates that your point is nonsense.

Sorry, I was under the impression you wanted to have a serious discussion.

[Ternaugh]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

And if he does have the defenses to handle them, DG won't be taking any BODY damage at all! (Give them each another, say +5 rDEF for 15 points)

 

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. So if the price of that ounce of prevention only buys an ounce of cure, the prevention is the better buy.

 

Once again, it depends on the genre. I would be rather hesitant to allow resistant defenses above, say, 8, in Fantasy Hero (like bigbywolfe's examples imply).

 

JoeG

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

Cumulative on Drain has no effect. Unless the GM is using some form of House Rule where Drain does have a cap - perhaps a Constant Drain or such. Either way Drain has no maximum effect.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

Cumulative on Drain has no effect. Unless the GM is using some form of House Rule where Drain does have a cap - perhaps a Constant Drain or such. Either way Drain has no maximum effect.

 

Placing Cumulative on Drain could be interpreted as adding to the previous effect instead of Fading separately. I'd consider that effect myself, if I weren't house ruling a combined Fade in any case.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

That's a pretty good idea - though we also combine the fade to save on tracking too many things.

[Beast]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

buying Cumulative would be 1 way to over come a targets defenses with out having to do a straight over power of then(the way most instant powers work)

think scaling multiple walls or peeling onions

 

you go over 1 and kill those defenders

then you go over the next 1

 

Cumulative on Drain has no effect. Unless the GM is using some form of House Rule where Drain does have a cap - perhaps a Constant Drain or such. Either way Drain has no maximum effect.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

Of course not. Cost has nothing to do with concept. Cost should equate to utility. And if 16 points worth of Regeneration is less useful than +2 rPD/rED/rPowD/rFD and +4 BODY for 16 points, that's a problem.

 

How much Healing, Reduced Reset Time, Self Only can you get for 16 points?

 

3d6, Self Only is only 10, and you can always add Extre Time to make it even cheaper.

 

Nothing wrong with the "concept" of Regeneration. It just needs to have the correct cost.

 

Agreed. I also find the fact that REC and BOD have dropped in cost while Regen has risen counter intuitive. But then, I've typically seen Regen in Supers games (where the other characters' defenses generally eliminate BOD damage anyway), and not in grittier games where BOD damage is typically serious and long-lasting (not eliminated quickly by healing spells or bacta tanks, for example).

 

But is it worth more than a comparable amount of extra DEF, BODY, and.or Healing?

 

Regenerating guy spends 16 points on 1 BODY Regen/turn.

Defensive guy spends 15 points on 5 PD/5 ED armor.

 

Enemy has 2d6 HKA (up to 4d6 w/STR, but lets say it's only 2d6 total).

 

RG and DG both take a hit. RG takes 7 BODY and gets it all back in 7 turns. DG takes 2 BODY and gets it back in a few weeks.

 

RG and DG both take 2 hits. RG takes 14 BODY and gets it all back in 14 turns. DG takes 4 BODY and gets it back in about a month.

 

RG and DG both take 4 hits. RG takes 28 BODY and gets it all back in 28 turns. DG takes 8 BODY and gets it all back in about 2 months.

 

DG will survive RG probably won't.

 

Others have already noted the time factor. If those four hits, for example, are in four separate battles an hour apart, RG is in much better shape than DG.

 

AVAD attacks that do BOD are much more effective against DG, as are armor piercing or Penetrating attacks.

 

While I agree that Regen seems quite expensive, I think you are focusing only on attacks that rDEF would be most beneficial against.

 

Once again' date=' it depends on the genre. I would be rather hesitant to allow resistant defenses above, say, 8, in Fantasy Hero (like bigbywolfe's examples imply).[/quote']

 

Agreed. But that's because I want BOD damage to be serious. Given that, I would be resistant to Regeneration at the per turn, minute or even hour level.

 

does not really help in a MP

I can get 1 level which is still a big help

I could go to a smaller type of CSL but the muse power was ment to be generic so it could help the whole team at once instead of having to help H t H vs the Ranged

and yes this is Piety from the game we are both in GA

I'm just seeing what a 6th ed conversion would look like

I'm still playing her in 5th ed revised

 

The MP comment ends it for me. "Aid, takes a long time to build up to full effect, lasts a long time, with numerous MP slots" is an abusive structure, at least in my opinion. It's a means of buying extra characteristics, Usable by the entire team, with some extra time to turn it on, extremely cheaply. I'm pleased to see this will be lower powered.

[Beast]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

With the stun multiplier going to a 1d3 and all pd/ed(depending on the flavor)now count vs stun done by KA's

there is going to be a need to keep resistant Def down where you might take body from an attack(60 active game Def should be around 14 to 15 resistant)

otherwise Killing attacks will be useless if everybody has a 20 resistant def

only those that would risk a pushed haymaker might do 1 body to that 20 def target(granted 63 stun might daze the target)

 

also in a game with only 16cp for defenses and 30 active pt attacks is going to be a very low power game

a better example would likely be in a game with say 30 pts for def and 45pts for attacks

[ajackson]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

The MP comment ends it for me. "Aid' date=' takes a long time to build up to full effect, lasts a long time, with numerous MP slots" is an abusive structure, at least in my opinion. It's a means of buying extra characteristics, Usable by the entire team, with some extra time to turn it on, extremely cheaply. I'm pleased to see this will be lower powered.[/quote']

Well, you can still buy 3d6 Aid, Variable Effect (+0.5), Delayed Return Rate 5/hr (+1.75) [58] and aid all of your powers by 18, one at a time (you can probably do around 10 powers in a minute), and it can still go in a multipower slot.

 

At this point, I'm sort of coming to the conclusion that Aid shouldn't exist; just use UoO power (or conditional powers, for absorption).

[rjcurrie]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

Well' date=' you can still buy 3d6 Aid, Variable Effect (+0.5), Delayed Return Rate 5/hr (+1.75) [58'] and aid all of your powers by 18, one at a time (you can probably do around 10 powers in a minute), and it can still go in a multipower slot.

 

At this point, I'm sort of coming to the conclusion that Aid shouldn't exist; just use UoO power (or conditional powers, for absorption).

 

And of course, just because a Power can be abused, it doesn't mean you have to abuse it.

[archermoo]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

And of course' date=' just because a Power can be abused, it doesn't mean you have to abuse it.[/quote']

 

For that matter just because a power can be abused doesn't mean that it needs to be gotten rid or, or necessarily even changed. If you spend too much time worrying about what munchkins can do to abuse a system the system suffers.

[Istaran]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

And when you have another fight 10 minutes later (not 2 weeks) as you go deeper into the dungeon RG as at full health and DG is down 2 BODY

Yes. This is exactly what the regenerator paid points for: being in a better position in terms of BODY 10 minutes after any given fight.

 

Then when there is a fight 3 days later RG is at full health but DG is down 4 BODY. Later that day DG is now down 6 body while RG is at full (they both got hit again) when they find the undead “end boss” of the story arch. Now who’s more likely to survive? The guy at 10 BODY or the guy at 4 BODY (assuming neither of them bought their BODY up)?

This depends. If the "end boss" makes attacks that are resisted by rPD or rED, then the guy at 4 BODY is more likely to survive than the guy at 10 BODY under many common conditions.

An attack dealing 19 BODY in excess of RG's defenses will kill DG but not RG. An attack dealing more than 19 BODY in excess of RG's defenses will kill both. An attack dealing less than 19 BODY in excess of RG's defenses will leave RG with at most 1 more BODY than DG; a second such attack will leave RG with 4 BODY less than DG (assuming DG isn't just taking 0 BODY with some of his defenses not applying).

Now, if we have heros who haven't bought up BODY facing attacks that exceed their defenses by 14-19 BODY at a time.. Hmm.. sounds like my last session actually.

In any case, during the course of this battle I believe DG is more likely to survive. RG gets some fringe bonus for the fact that if the fight drags on accross multiple turns he will be gaining back BODY while DG is likely to be losing BODY over time. If both survive, however, RG's position will be far superior to DG's 10 minutes later.

 

Except you have 10 – 15 more fights that month (if not several in the same day).

Regeneration is favored by multiple-encounter "endurance challenges". This is one of its strong suits. In any given battle rPD+rED will usually win out.

 

Well' date=' if RG is taking that many hits when he doesn’t have the defenses to handle them maybe there is a bigger problem with character design. If he does survive, however, he will be back to full Body in a matter of minutes, while DG will get nickeled and dimed until he dies half way through the month.[/quote']

Assuming nothing is doing BODY to either except attacks which are resisted by rPD+rED, and that nothing exceeds RG's defenses by more than 10 BODY, the party has no means of healing DG's wounds without spending weeks waiting, spending weeks waiting is not a reasonable option, etc, DG has better odds of surviving any given battle until he gets somewhere in the vacinity of 0 BODY.

If DG goes into a fight at 1 BODY and RG goes into a fight at 10 BODY, both are hit twice for RG's defenses +10 BODY in segment 12: RG is dead, DG lives long enough to bleed out in post segment 12. For 3 hits of RG's defenses +7, RG is dead, DG is at -5 and bleeds to -6: two more such hits are needed to kill him during the next turn. For 1 hit of RG's defenses +15 BODY, RG survives (and starts healing back) but DG is dead.

 

 

All that said, if we double the DCs going around, double the defenses, as well as the BODY and STUN, etc. but don't double the regen, RG saves 15 points in the process but the difference in strengths/weakness and effectiveness between RG and DG stay essentially the same. In other words, regen has scaling issues. You have to get pretty crazy high in the point totals for Regen: 1 BODY/turn to be something other then "you get all your BODY back after combat" in practical terms.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

buying Cumulative would be 1 way to over come a targets defenses with out having to do a straight over power of then(the way most instant powers work)

think scaling multiple walls or peeling onions

 

you go over 1 and kill those defenders

then you go over the next 1

 

You should really pick up the PDFs and read the rules before getting into a nuts/bolts discussion. It'd help.

 

Defenses are applied to each roll, Cumulative just adds onto what gets through the Defenses.

 

You cannot buy a small amount of dice, then Cumulative, then hope to overcome Defenses that way. Not under 6E.

[ajackson]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

For that matter just because a power can be abused doesn't mean that it needs to be gotten rid or' date=' or necessarily even changed.[/quote']

I agree, but outside of the degenerate builds aid is often more expensive than doing the same thing directly, and for an awful lot of builds not appreciably simpler than the direct limited power build.

 

What I described isn't even a bad concept -- for example, an engineer who can spend some time tuning a device so it works better, until the device goes out of tune. It's just fishy from a balance perspective (which is a problem with most buffers).

[Beast]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

my plan is to get the new rules when they get to my FLGS

while I want to support Hero there are other games I play and my FLGS is where I get most of my stuff (by going there I support both)

I like to be able to see what I'm getting(something the internet does not do like a brick and mortar store does)

 

 

You should really pick up the PDFs and read the rules before getting into a nuts/bolts discussion. It'd help.

 

.

[mmshah]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

A few people have mentioned it but, the following power seems to be a good replacement for Regeneration:

 

Healing BODY 1/2d6, Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/4), Constant (+1/2) (19 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2) Real Cost 13

 

Thats 3 Character points of Body per Turn, rolled 1/2d6 per phase. Also you can buy Expanded Effect to cover END and Stun if you like.

 

This was also legal in 5ER, but there are some nice advatanges in 6E for it, first reduced cost of the Constant and Persistent advantages, secondly BODY is only 1 char point now, (Note: Stun and END are cheaper too), and lastly Regeneration has gone up in price now making this a good alternative. For 13 Char points you get 3 Body per Turn, thats much better then Regeneration in its Current Form, not only that you start getting it on your next Phase, you don't have to wait till Phase 12. Throw in Expanded Effect for END and Stun and you probably don't even need to buy additional REC.