6th Edition Question: New Powers?

[GamePhil]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

Healing BODY 1/2d6, Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/4), Constant (+1/2) (19 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2) Real Cost 13

 

Except, of course, that Persistent is specifically mentioned as being disallowed, presumably because Steve believes that the cost of Regeneration is reasonable for its effect. If someone disagrees, and for some game settings I might very well, then I think it's more reasonable to just reduce the cost of Regeneration rather than trying to get around it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

Except' date=' of course, that Persistent is specifically mentioned as being disallowed, presumably because Steve believes that the cost of Regeneration is reasonable for its effect. If someone disagrees, and for some game settings I might very well, then I think it's more reasonable to just reduce the cost of Regeneration rather than trying to get around it.[/quote']

 

Healing can apply to things other than just Body. Regeneration cannot. Hmm.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

Regardless of how it compares to Healing, Regeneration was obviously not designed to be a type of defense. Because of this, those that are comparing it to Defense Powers are getting a slanted idea of how "overly expensive" it is.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

Regeneration is no more a defense than just buying tons and tons of Stun is.

 

It can be effective in combinations though.

 

say the Campaign standard note that 10rDEF is a good number to have. instead of buying 10rPD/10rED in some combination of Powers you buy only 5rPD/5rED buy also purchase some Regeneration - easy to hurt, hard to put down.

 

That Regeneration also works against Body Damage from AVAD:All Or Nothing+Does Body Attacks you encounter. May not be common, but something worth noting.

 

Regeneration also does not protect you from the effects of Stunning like Defenses can. It is not a mitigation effect, and I think it's a bad idea to compare it to just having defenses. It works with them, not instead of them.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

...But we have Regeneration in 6E. Why do we need a replacement for it?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

A few people have mentioned it but, the following power seems to be a good replacement for Regeneration:

 

Healing BODY 1/2d6, Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Turn; +1 1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/4), Constant (+1/2) (19 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2) Real Cost 13

1 BODY/turn Regeneration is pretty much a between-combats recovery power anyway, so there's really no need to rebuild Regeneration this precisely. And you can do quite well without needing to break the "no Persistant" rule.

 

Healing BODY 2d6, Decreased Re-use Duration (1 Minute; +1 1/4) (45 Active); Self Only (-1/2), Extra Time (1 Turn; -1 1/4) Real Cost 16

 

Got a minutes or two between combats? You're back up to full for the price of 1 Body/Turn Regeneration. And you can get it for even less with more limitations, such as Increased END, Focus (expendible), Concentration, etc.

 

Except' date=' of course, that Persistent is specifically mentioned as being disallowed, presumably because Steve believes that the cost of Regeneration is reasonable for its effect. If someone disagrees, and for some game settings I might very well, then I think it's more reasonable to just reduce the cost of Regeneration rather than trying to get around it.[/quote']

Yeah. Reducing the cost of Regeneration seems quite reasonable and appropriate!

 

Regardless of how it compares to Healing' date=' Regeneration was obviously not designed to be a type of defense. Because of this, those that are comparing it to Defense Powers are getting a slanted idea of how "overly expensive" it is.[/quote']

In a game that offers both Regeneration and Defensive Powers, it's perfectly reasonable to compare them and see which gives better utility for the cost.

 

And it Steve Long thinks that 16 Points is the right cost for 1 BODY/Turn, why did he make it only 7 points in 5th, when BODY was twice as expensive?

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

1 Body/Turn might be more of a between combats thing, but 5 Body/Turn would be quite significant....

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

Is there an elegant way to model my character who heals at the normal rate (in terms of recovering lost BODY)' date=' but regrows lost body parts?[/quote']

 

+1 Body/week only costs 2 points and will keep your character within pretty normal healing rates - it is only +4 Body per month - and you can add 'Regrow Limbs' for +5 points, so 7 points and you are good to go

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

1 Body/Turn might be more of a between combats thing' date=' but 5 Body/Turn would be quite significant....[/quote']

At 80 points, it better be! But then again, think of all the other things you could buy for the same 80 points that would give you as much or a better in-combat advantage, like say +80 BODY, or 80 points worth of Damage Reduction/Negation (which you could stretch further with a "BODY Only" Limitation), or just a butt load of DEF, which would prevent far more than 5 BODY/turn damage in the first place. No need to regenerate when you don't take any BODY damage.

[Vondy]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

In a game that offers both Regeneration and Defensive Powers, it's perfectly reasonable to compare them and see which gives better utility for the cost.

 

This is only true if you consider recovery a defense. I do not consider recovery a defense. Regeneration is accelerated recovery limited to body. If you want defenses defined as regeneration you need to buy regular defensive powers with the special effect regeneration. Because of this I do not believe comparing the mechanic regeneration (ergo, the power) to defenses as a part of a cost-benefit analysis is apropos because that's not what it does. It does not defend. It recovers after you've already taken damage. As such, the cost benefit analysis of how effective regeneration is should be based on a comparison to the normative recovery rate. In other words, if I were to buy recovery for body only down the time chart from one month to one turn via a naked advantage, how much would it cost?

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

Let's see. Call it 30 days/month, 24 hours/day, 60 min/hour, 5 Turns/min...that's a Recovery of 216000 in order to get back 1 Body/Turn if the GM is willing to pro-rate. How much of a Limitation do you think Body Only is?

 

Seriously, there's no basis for decreasing the time interval of Recovery. I think we'd have to compare Regeneration to...well, modified Healing. Which is exactly what people have been doing.

[Vondy]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

Let's see. Call it 30 days/month' date=' 24 hours/day, 60 min/hour, 5 Turns/min...that's a Recovery of 216000 in order to get back 1 Body/Turn if the GM is willing to pro-rate. How much of a Limitation do you think [i']Body Only[/i] is?

 

-2.

 

Its only one of the three things recovery returns and is, at its base rate, much slower than the other two. Under 5E I used to purchase additional recovery with the limitation Body Only -2 to represent Regeneration. Overall, the costs were similar to the healing costs for regeneration without being complex, verbose, and annoying in terms of notation on the character sheet. Note: I did not test this at superheroic levels. I run heroic games. It worked well.

 

Seriously' date=' there's no basis for decreasing the time interval of Recovery. I think we'd have to compare Regeneration to...well, modified Healing. Which is exactly what people have been doing.[/quote']

 

There is a rational basis for the comparison. Recovery returns body-end-stun; regeneration returns body. Thus, in terms of function, they are doing the same thing (more or less). At the same time, I don't deny that healing has a direct corellation and that it makes sense to make that comparison instead, especially if that's the mechanic the power is constructed from. But then, the exact same principle applies to healing as applies to recovery in terms of the argument I was making. Healing is not a defense. Comparing it cost wise to defenses is not germaine.

[Hierax]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

I believe Steve Long even looked at the REC Regneration option in Digital Hero... Yes, DH.29. Seemed like a much better way to do it than the 5e way.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

And it Steve Long thinks that 16 Points is the right cost for 1 BODY/Turn' date=' why did he make it only 7 points in 5th, when BODY was twice as expensive?[/quote']

“Sorry, I was under the impression you wanted to have a serious discussion.”

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

It applies to Regeneration and Healing (Aid) too, so I think I'll repeat in this thread:

 

Can't we just go back to Fourth Edition Adjustment powers? They kicked a**. The golden age of Adjustment, I swear.

[Hierax]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

FWIW, the Recovery-Based Regeneration in HEROGlyphs was 0 points for BODY per month ... 10 points for BODY per week ... 70 points for REC as BODY per Turn (default REC 4 BODY per Turn).

 

Compare that to the flat 0 points for BODY per month and 10 points for 1 BODY per Turn in 4th ed.

 

Gives a nice spread of point costs for different effects using the REC based Regen.

[Ternaugh]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

This is only true if you consider recovery a defense. I do not consider recovery a defense. Regeneration is accelerated recovery limited to body. If you want defenses defined as regeneration you need to buy regular defensive powers with the special effect regeneration. Because of this I do not believe comparing the mechanic regeneration (ergo' date=' the power) to defenses as a part of a cost-benefit analysis is apropos because that's not what it does. It does not defend. It recovers after you've already taken damage. As such, the cost benefit analysis of how effective regeneration is should be based on a comparison to the normative recovery rate. In other words, if I were to buy recovery for body only down the time chart from one month to one turn via a naked advantage, how much would it cost?[/quote']

 

I have to agree with you about using regeneration as a special effect. For example, I'd probably use the new power, Damage Negation, with the special effect of the wounds rapidly closing up after the hit. This would be pretty useful with modeling a Troll for FH, perhaps coupled with a small amount of Regeneration or Healing for finishing the process later.

 

JoeG

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

This is only true if you consider recovery a defense.

That's not true. I agree with you that recovery (and by by extention, Regeneration) is not a defense. But that doesn't mean you can't compare the cost effectiveness of Regeneration and Defenses, or other powers.

 

And at 16 points to recover 1 BODY per turn, it seems to me your better off buying defenses and depending on the style of game, either Regeneration 1/week or day, or a cheap, heavily limited Self-Only Healing, or in some cases, niether.

 

If there's plenty of time to recover between combats, you're better off buying a lot of Defenses, and maybe per day or per week Regeneration, and maybe one guy in the party has a Healing Power.

 

If there's a good amount of time between combats (an hour to a day), you're better off buying Defenses and a limited Self-Only Healing.

 

If there's no way to avoid short times between combats (minutes), you're better off buying some Defenses and a slightly limited Self-Only Healing.

 

If you regularly spend more than 5 minutes (game time; 25+ full turns) in continuous combat, never exiting the speed chart and with no ability to ever fall back from the front lines and recover, then *maybe* per turn Regeneration is an OK buy. But even then, there are probably more cost effective ways of increasing your chances of survival.

[Vondy]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

That's not true. I agree with you that recovery (and by by extention, Regeneration) is not a defense. But that doesn't mean you can't compare the cost effectiveness of Regeneration and Defenses, or other powers.

 

And at 16 points to recover 1 BODY per turn, it seems to me your better off buying defenses and depending on the style of game, either Regeneration 1/week or day, or a cheap, heavily limited Self-Only Healing, or in some cases, niether.

 

If there's plenty of time to recover between combats, you're better off buying a lot of Defenses, and maybe per day or per week Regeneration, and maybe one guy in the party has a Healing Power.

 

If there's a good amount of time between combats (an hour to a day), you're better off buying Defenses and a limited Self-Only Healing.

 

If there's no way to avoid short times between combats (minutes), you're better off buying some Defenses and a slightly limited Self-Only Healing.

 

If you regularly spend more than 5 minutes (game time; 25+ full turns) in continuous combat, never exiting the speed chart and with no ability to ever fall back from the front lines and recover, then *maybe* per turn Regeneration is an OK buy. But even then, there are probably more cost effective ways of increasing your chances of survival.

 

I am going to terminate our discussion on this. You refuse to look at the power outside of uninterupted combat time. You have also overlooked a very serious point I brought up: genre. You keep making the argument its better to buy a lot of defenses. That is only true when you can buy lots of defenses. Not every genre/campaign allows for such a build. As a result, the power's effectiveness vis-a-vis defenses will vary based on genre and conventions. On top of that, you keep insisting on survivability in short term combat as the measure of the powers utility. On this there we have a fundamental disconnect. I don't see regeneration constructed without the ressurection adder as being primarily about single-combat survivability. I see it as being about bouncing back after fight is over, which becomes especially useful in a narrative flow with several fights in a short span of time. At that point it can make a world of difference. As such, we're talking past one another. And lastly, even within the context of combat, if you are going with dramatic descriptions in combat and aren't married to the idea of a macho-man slugfest disengaging for thrity seconds to a minute at a time (and I've done it even with characters who don't regenerate). There are several genre examples of this - that player's don't think about it doesn't mean its not an option. And, again, everything I just said was about regeneration built without the resurrection option (presuming it still exists). Even a slow regeneration rate (a minute, five minutes, twenty minutes, and hour) can radically alter the narrative flow of a story in the characters favor. Its not only about the momentary combat you were in.

 

We regard the power very differently. This may be because I generally run heroic level games where stacking on tons of defenses isn't always apropos.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

I am going to terminate our discussion on this.

You're entitled to bow out of the discussion if you like, but just because you haven't been able to refute my argument doesn't mean I must stop discussing it.

 

You refuse to look at the power outside of uninterupted combat time.

Not at all. I gave the whole gamut of combat frequencies in my last post. Sometimes cobats are uninterrupted, and sometimes they aren't.

 

You have also overlooked a very serious point I brought up: genre.

That's because genre is irrelevent to my point. What's relevent is the stuff that I already mentioned: how much recovery time is available between combats, etc. Another such consideration is how much BODY characters have, and how much the need or "use" - and by that I mean how much BODY does the typical attack in the game do? How much BODY is a character down after a typical combat? How much BODY does a character lose over the course of a multi-combat adventure? These things are related to the genre and style of game, but could vary greatly within any genre or be pretty much the same across genres.

 

To give an extreme example, if PCs have 100 BODY take no more than 2-4 BODY in a typical combat and have no more than a dozen combats in an extended adventure, then Regeneration is not needed at all because characters never come anywhere close to losing all their BODY.

 

On the opposite extreme, if PCs have around 8 BODY and it's very common for single attacks to do 5-10 BODY per hit, then players have to seriously figure out how to keep their characters alive.

 

Note that neither of these examples relies on any specific genre.

 

You keep making the argument its better to buy a lot of defenses. That is only true when you can buy lots of defenses. Not every genre/campaign allows for such a build. As a result, the power's effectiveness vis-a-vis defenses will vary based on genre and conventions.

So what? Any individual genre could have any number of constraints in it. A genre could be just as likely to prohibit buying Regeneration. Or a genre could allow armor (DEF) as equipment not purchased with character points. I do not make any claim than Regeneration is a bad option within any particular unspecified campaign restrictions. I have no way of knowing in advance what those are going to be. For example, in a game where 2d6 Killing damage is common, defenses available from all sources can never exceed 3, BODY for a PC is around 10, Healing is not available, and PCs will face multiple combats within a single day of game time, then yes, under those circumstances Regeneration is a good way to keep characters alive, and is probably essential.

 

Just to be clear, the only claim I'm making is that, assuming all the rules are available, Regeneration at the per turn level is more expensive than many other options that would be as effective in keeping characters alive.

 

16 points for 1 BODY/turn is too expensive - assuming other powers are available, like more defenses or Healing.

 

And though I haven't specifically mentioned it yet, I also claim that

14 points for 1 BODY/minute is too expensive

12 points for 1 BODY/5 minutes is too expensive

10 points for 1 BODY/20 minutes is too expensive

8 points for 1 BODY/hour is probably too expensive

6 points for 1 BODY/6 hours might be too expensive

4 points for 1 BODY/day might be a good buy

2 points for 1 BODY/week is probably a good buy

 

 

On top of that, you keep insisting on survivability in short term combat as the measure of the powers utility.

No I don't. It is *one* measure of the power's utility, however.

 

On this there we have a fundamental disconnect. I don't see regeneration constructed without the ressurection adder as being primarily about single-combat survivability.

Neither do I. It is *one* of the things it could be about.

 

I see it as being about bouncing back after fight is over, which becomes especially useful in a narrative flow with several fights in a short span of time. At that point it can make a world of difference.

Yes. That's another thing Regeneration can be about. That's also something that Healing can be used for. And Healing seems to give more more for the cost.

 

As such, we're talking past one another. And lastly, even within the context of combat, if you are going with dramatic descriptions in combat and aren't married to the idea of a macho-man slugfest disengaging for thrity seconds to a minute at a time (and I've done it even with characters who don't regenerate). There are several genre examples of this - that player's don't think about it doesn't mean its not an option.

I'm not "married" to any such idea. Didn't you read my last post? In most HERO games that I've seen, combats last no more than a few turns. If you take a one-minute break from fighting, the combat will be over before you get back. However, in some games, combats might last for a good long time, and it's a useful idea to take it in "shifts" - some characters falling back to recover for several turns or minutes (or more!) while others fight. The only case where I can see that Regeneration at the per turn level is a good buy is when falling back for extended periods to revocer isn't an option at all - such as if you're tightly surrounded, or there is no safe place to rest at all. That would be a rather rare occurrance.

 

And, again, everything I just said was about regeneration built without the resurrection option (presuming it still exists). Even a slow regeneration rate (a minute, five minutes, twenty minutes, and hour) can radically alter the narrative flow of a story in the characters favor. Its not only about the momentary combat you were in.

And again, everything I've said was about Regeneration at the per turn level. And even at the per hour level, you're probably better off with some limited form of Self-Only Healing. Say:

 

1d6 Healing, Decreased Re-use Duration (5 minutes; +1 IIRC) that's 20 Active points; Self-Only (-1/2), Extra Time (1 Minute; -1 1/2), Increased END Cost (2x END; -1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2). Real Cost: 5 points (4 END) (and of course, you can make it even cheaper with other limitations)

 

That's 3.5 BODY regained every five minutes for 5 points,

vs.

1 BODY regained every hour for 8 points.

 

We regard the power very differently. This may be because I generally run heroic level games where stacking on tons of defenses isn't always apropos.

I don't think we necessarily regard the power differently. I just think it's too expensive. I also mostly run heroic games where defenses are somewhat limited. I run mostly fantasy, and generally discourage adventurers from wearing heavy armor (that's more for soldiers). I enforce the encumbrance rules, and use NCM. Generally, the main form of resistant DEF is from armor (purchased with money). And most attacks do Killing Damage. Regeneration at about 7 points for 1 BODY per turn was about right. At 16 points, they'll probably just buy Healing, and as much Combat Luck as I'll allow them.

[mmshah]

Re: 6th Edition Question: New Powers?

 

You can probably use some form of Trigger or Uncontrolled to circumvent the no Persistent Restriction on Healing. But even without it I'd still use it in place of more Regen, it works as long as your not Stunned or KO'ed which should be good enough most of the time add in 1 point of Regen so you won't bleed to death if you like. And another question someone asked, does Healing have half-effect on Body/Stun since Healing is an Adjustment power?