CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[Steve Long]

OK, time for another WDYWTS thread. I've just gotten to work on the new Champions genre book and as usual want to solicit fan input and feedback.

 

To start with, let me answer a question I've been asked a couple times: Yes, I'm starting with the Champions 5E text and going from there. That text will be rewritten/revised/updated and reorganized as I see fit, but a lot of it probably won't change at all. A genre book has to cover certain bases, and if the existing text does that well enough I see no reason to reinvent the wheel.

 

So, here's a rough summary of the outline and contents I currently have in mind:

 

Chapter One: The Superheroes Genre: The elements, themes, tropes, and "bit" of the genre; major subgenres (Golden Age, Silver Age, Teen Champions, etc., etc.); mixing Champions with other genres and meta-genres.

 

Chapter Two: Superhero Character Creation: Superhero archetypes (with some sample powers); a review of HERO System elements with any special notes or rules for the Superheroes genre; a discussion of superhero origins; a discussion of superteams.

 

Chapter Three: Gamemastering Champions: Planning and running a Superheroes campaign; creating a Superheroes world; and so on. I expect this will be shorter than the equivalent 5E section because I swiped some chunks of it for 6E.

 

Chapter Four: The Champions: Five example heroes and their headquarters and resources; six sample villains. These will follow the Cryptic take on the characters, naturally.

 

Chapter Five: Champions Sourcebook: This is currently planned as five sections of out-of-the-box usable material to help GMs and players. I may have to trim some here, though, if the book is running long. As it stands I'm thinking of: Powers (40 pages, one page for each major category in the USPD, with sample powers of that special effect); Gadgets (10-12 pages of various super-tech); Bases; Vehicles; and Characters (I take 20 major superhuman types and give each a two-page spread with a basic character sheet, and then sample powers to pick and choose from to fill it out, allowing you to quickly whip up all sorts of supervillains and such; also there's a section of generic thugs and minions).

 

So, that's pretty much it as things now stand. What do you want to see in the book?

[teh bunneh]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Any chance of some 4-page "Sample Worlds" like in Post-Apocalypse Hero or Urban Fantasy Hero? For example:

• A DC-style "Silver Age," in which the superhero has to move the moon across to the other side of the sky in order to preserve his secret ID from his nosy girlfriend,
  
• A 1980s Chris Claremont X-Men "Bronze Age" world, where the heroes fight to protect a world that fears and hates them, with all the soap-opera and romance that entails,
  
• A Marshall Law style "Iron Age" world, where super-powered gangs prey on the weak, and justice only comes from the barrel of a gun...
  

That sort of thing?

[ghost-angel]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I have to second the request for mini-campaigns based on some of the sub-genres presented in the first chapter.

 

Especially ones that move benchmarks around (like suggested AP caps or such).

 

Also, more on mixing archetypes up; and possibly a bit on breaking the mold.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Excellent outline; but this...

 

Chapter Five: Champions Sourcebook: This is currently planned as five sections of out-of-the-box usable material to help GMs and players. I may have to trim some here' date=' though, if the book is running long. As it stands I'm thinking of: Powers (40 pages, one page for each major category in the USPD, with sample powers of that special effect); Gadgets (10-12 pages of various super-tech); Bases; Vehicles; and Characters (I take 20 major superhuman types and give each a two-page spread with a basic character sheet, and then sample powers to pick and choose from to fill it out, allowing you to quickly whip up all sorts of supervillains and such; also there's a section of generic thugs and minions).[/quote']

 

... IMO will really help newcomers grasp how to run HERO supers right out of the book, and cut down on the time they'll need to build their own stuff, which has always been intimidating for them. Any chance of incorporating a Random Character Generator matrix with this, as was done for the 5E genre book?

 

One of the most common complaints I've heard about Champions, for 5E or earlier, is that it "can't" be used as written to play really powerful superheroes -- the kind that crush tanks, level cities, or even move planets. I've offered various responses to this criticism, which have elicited their own objections.

 

When I explain that the default power level for the game is more "X-Men" than "Justice League," I get, "There are lots of comics with mega-characters: Superman, Thor, Green Lantern, Silver Surfer, Legion of Super-Heroes. The system says I can play 'any genre, any power level,' so what if I want to play that?"

 

If I tell them they can just ramp up character points to get the power level they want, they say, "All the published examples aren't built to that level, especially compared to non-super published stuff. I shouldn't have to rewrite everything in the source books to use them in the type of game I want."

 

I offer house rules to adjust play the way they want, but the criticism becomes, "What if I'm new to the game and not enough of a system guru to know what rules to tweak? What I need should be there in the genre book."

 

Galactic Champions offers optional rules and guidelines for cosmically-powerful heroes and villains, but it's an additional purchase beyond the genre book, and includes lots of material that may not interest people who just want optional rules.

 

Whether or not one agrees with these objections, they represent an attitude that may cost potential sales. The point of all this long-windedness is that I recommend guidelines be included in the genre book for running very high powered games, plus optional rules for scaling up the power level of supers relative to the mundane world without adding Character Points or Damage Classes to them. The 5E genre book had some, but I suggest adding material at least comparable to what's in Galactic Champions.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Any chance of some 4-page "Sample Worlds" like in Post-Apocalypse Hero or Urban Fantasy Hero? For example:

• A DC-style "Silver Age," in which the superhero has to move the moon across to the other side of the sky in order to preserve his secret ID from his nosy girlfriend,
  
• A 1980s Chris Claremont X-Men "Bronze Age" world, where the heroes fight to protect a world that fears and hates them, with all the soap-opera and romance that entails,
  
• A Marshall Law style "Iron Age" world, where super-powered gangs prey on the weak, and justice only comes from the barrel of a gun...
  

That sort of thing?

 

 

 

I have to second the request for mini-campaigns based on some of the sub-genres presented in the first chapter.

 

Especially ones that move benchmarks around (like suggested AP caps or such).

 

Also, more on mixing archetypes up; and possibly a bit on breaking the mold.

 

I agree with my board colleagues on adding sample campaign mini-settings, assuming that was practical. Perhaps just dealing with ones that are less like the current mainstream, with a "For a more modern-Marvel/DC-type world, please see the official Champions Universe line of sourcebooks" caveat.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

One thing that the previous editions haven't covered really well is why superheroes do what they do. The central motivations are covered adequately (though maybe a bit more wouldn't hurt); I'm talking about why they follow certain tropes.

 

Secret Identities: Traditionally, superheroes keep their real identities secret from everyone, including their loved ones. Others let their names be publicly known, most often because they have no choice because they look so unusual (like The Thing or Blue Devil). A few keep their identities "private," letting their loved ones and/or the police know who they really are but not releasing it in the press. And there are other points along that continuum as well. A few (like Ralph Hinkley of The Greatest American Hero even keep their existence secret. A brief survey of possibilities, and the reasons a hero might take that level of secrecy or publicity, would be good.

 

Costumes: The logic of superhero costumes have changed over the years, from the tights-and-trunks spandex we're familiar with on Superman and Batman, to the suits of the Question and the Phantom Stranger, to the colored armor of the Power Rangers, to the more casual wear of Superboy (Kon-El). Reasons for wearing a costume have included hiding one's identity, displaying a symbol, having a uniform as a member of a group, and making the deed more visible than the person doing it. As above, a brief discussion of what sorts of costumes superheroes wear and why they wear them would be good.

 

Code-Names: The use of a code-name is one of the most familiar traditions of superhero literature. A few, such as Stephen Strange and Lex Luthor, don't bother with them, but the vast majority -- even those whose real name is publicly known -- do. (A few, such as Red Tornado or the Vision, don't have anything else.) A discussion on how superhero code-names are invented, what they mean, their psychological effects, and so forth would be good.

 

Mind that no part of the above probably needs to be more than a half to full column. It could be longer if you think it fitting, but that much should do fine, just as long as it gets the player's mind working.

 

Also, something just a tad more explicit about "legacy" heroes would be good, with examples like the Flash, Green Lantern, the Phantom, and Captain Britain.

[Greywind]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Clown

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Any chance of incorporating a Random Character Generator matrix with this, as was done for the 5E genre book?

 

My thinking is that the section of "quick-build a character based on these stock archetypes with power choices" is going to take the place of that -- it'll certainly cover pretty much everything the Quick Superhuman Generator was doing, and hopefully go beyond it.

 

If and when I tackle a full-blown Random Superhero Generator I think I'd want it to connect to Champions Powers in some way, to save time and trouble. I've had that project in mind for years, but every time I start fiddling around with the Cthulhoid dimensions of the problem make me back off.

[bubba smith]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Any chance of some 4-page "Sample Worlds" like in Post-Apocalypse Hero or Urban Fantasy Hero? For example:

• A DC-style "Silver Age," in which the superhero has to move the moon across to the other side of the sky in order to preserve his secret ID from his nosy girlfriend,
  
• A 1980s Chris Claremont X-Men "Bronze Age" world, where the heroes fight to protect a world that fears and hates them, with all the soap-opera and romance that entails,
  
• A Marshall Law style "Iron Age" world, where super-powered gangs prey on the weak, and justice only comes from the barrel of a gun...
  

That sort of thing?

second the motion masybe a golden age sample world as well

[phookz]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I don't remember if this was covered in another thread or not, but will it be of similar production quality to 6E, i.e. full color with great artwork? I haven't seen what the actual print version looks like, but the PDF is beautifully done. I'd like to see the same production quality go into Champions 6E.

 

I would also echo the mini-campaigns support. Things that help you sit down and run a mini-adventure right now would have a lot of appeal, both as a quick and easy run and also as a tutorial on how you can setup your own campaign/adventures.

[Karmakaze]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

When I explain that the default power level for the game is more "X-Men" than "Justice League' date='" I get, "There are lots of comics with mega-characters: Superman, Thor, Green Lantern, Silver Surfer, Legion of Super-Heroes. The system says I can play 'any genre, any power level,' so what if I want to play that?"[/quote']

 

Do you think it would be worth the page space to take one character and show a version of the write-up at the 5 main superheroic power levels? So we could see the steps from Low-Powered to Cosmically Powerful?

[Legendsmiths]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

My thinking is that the section of "quick-build a character based on these stock archetypes with power choices" is going to take the place of that -- it'll certainly cover pretty much everything the Quick Superhuman Generator was doing, and hopefully go beyond it.

 

If and when I tackle a full-blown Random Superhero Generator I think I'd want it to connect to Champions Powers in some way, to save time and trouble. I've had that project in mind for years, but every time I start fiddling around with the Cthulhoid dimensions of the problem make me back off.

 

I think this will work well (and certainly make my Be a Hero sessions easier). This is more or less what I did with the superhuman generator - turn it into pick lists which allow character creation in under an hour.

 

Can't wait.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Do you think it would be worth the page space to take one character and show a version of the write-up at the 5 main superheroic power levels? So we could see the steps from Low-Powered to Cosmically Powerful?

 

Concur. I'd like to see that mapped out to "official" endorsements of specific CV/DEF/Active guidelines. Something that a new-to-hero player could look at and not have to wonder if it will work or not.

 

Perhaps some campaign worksheets filled out for specific styles of campaigns.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Do you think it would be worth the page space to take one character and show a version of the write-up at the 5 main superheroic power levels? So we could see the steps from Low-Powered to Cosmically Powerful?

 

Hmm... as part of the example characters section, that might be helpful, if there was room for it. Probably stick to a simple brick character, as that's the easiest to build up from Heroic to Superheroic levels.

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

but will it be of similar production quality to 6E, i.e. full color with great artwork?

 

Yes it will. It's a hardcover, full color book.

 

In fact, I've already seen the completed cover art and some of the interior stuff, and let me just say, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

This is more or less what I did with the superhuman generator - turn it into pick lists which allow character creation in under an hour.

 

Yes, that's sorta what I have in mind here. The main trick's likely to be keeping each of the 20 base characters confined to a single two-page spread each while still providing all sorts of options. But I'm sure Fred will figure out a way.

[Peregrine]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Do you think it would be worth the page space to take one character and show a version of the write-up at the 5 main superheroic power levels? So we could see the steps from Low-Powered to Cosmically Powerful?

 

Thirded.

 

Also, perhaps some discussion about "non supers in a superhuman world" from a game mechanics perspective, should you be willing to open that can of Elder Worms...

[Blue]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Plan on updating the Champions (team) beyond the nuts-and-bolts?

 

What I mean is much the way that News Of the World updated the world in general, it would be intersting to have 6e change some of the interractions, possibly adding a new character to the team who shakes up the chemistry some.

 

As it is, I have little reason to use the Champions in my games. I've kind of shown their scthick and moved on. Unless there's something new for them to offer then they'll just remain in the background.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

One thing that the previous editions haven't covered really well is why superheroes do what they do. The central motivations are covered adequately (though maybe a bit more wouldn't hurt); I'm talking about why they follow certain tropes.

 

Seconded. "Because that's the way it's always been done." isn't a good answer for why these traditions exist. Help us explain them to our new guys.

 

A bit more description on the different "ages" (Golden, Silver, Bronze, etc.) and how they can be mixed and matched to obtain the "look and feel" you want in your settings.

[Hierax]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I have to second the request for mini-campaigns based on some of the sub-genres presented in the first chapter.

 

Especially ones that move benchmarks around (like suggested AP caps or such).

 

I'll second that second.

 

Different sets of Benchmarks for different levels of power for different campaigns with representative sample characters for each -- take the opportunity to showcase the variety and flexibility of the new Hero System.

 

Also, don't don't skimp on the side-barred examples -- this is a great opportunity to say take/paste things from the various villian books and Ultimate Superpowers Databases and quickly update them to H6e. Sample powers really help inform and whet the appetite for more (plus the people playing the online game will be interested to see how the powers of the guys they fight in the computer game look in the rpg).

[Hierax]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Oh yeah, Layout wise, have the same character on the same page-spread -- have the picture of the Character visible at the same time as the name, a lot of the 5th ed. books would have been better with this and since you're bothering to use full colour art the pics will stand out even more.

 

Also since you are using colour look at some more ways to use coloured text to differentiate information, you're already paying for it, may as well use it.

[The Main Man]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I will be yet another person who would like to see mini-campaigns because I thought that they were an excellent idea to fill up PAH and would like to see them in future genre books since there will not be many published campaigns for 6e.

 

I would say that having a campaign for each age as well as for Teen and Galactic levels would suffice.

 

I would also be inclined to say that there should be a distinction made between the Iron Age and the current age, since there are clear differences.

 

 

I think that there should be a distinction between superheroic campaigns as opposed to the Superhero genre.

 

What if there was a discussion on how to "superize" other genres, as well as the idea of heroic-level campaigns in a Superhero world (mini-campaign setting?).

[PhantomGM2602]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

How about adding an "Anime" Style Superhero campaign,You know a fusion of

4-color superheroes with anime supersentai heroes? And don't forget Putting in a Teen Champions team to compare with the adult counterparts.

[Peregrine]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I think that there should be a distinction between superheroic campaigns as opposed to the Superhero genre.

 

I like. You could definitely have Superheroic settings that differ significantly from the primary genre tropes of the superhero genre.

 

... the idea of heroic-level campaigns in a Superhero world (mini-campaign setting?).

 

Do. Not. Want.

 

A "non supers" group (such as super-agents, SpecOps, etc.) in a superhero world, sure. But Heroic and Superheroic are oil and water - they don't mix. At all. That Way Lies Madness*.

 

*"Madness" = "hard game mechanical boundary line between non-super and super"

[Fedifensor]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Do you think it would be worth the page space to take one character and show a version of the write-up at the 5 main superheroic power levels? So we could see the steps from Low-Powered to Cosmically Powerful?

Even better...do it with one writeup. Batman spends a day fighting thugs in Gotham, and the next day helping take down Darkseid. How do you write up a character that is challenged by both situations without being overwhelmed?

 

(My vote is on Damage Negation, cannot reduce below X DC's)

 

I like the suggestions about example Silver/Bronze/Iron Age examples. I'd also like to see ways to create characters who can bounce bullets and punch through bank vault doors without making them 1000+ point characters.

 

However, I thought the 5E version of Champions was one of the best books of the line. I'd like to see Aaron's work built on and added to, instead of replaced with completely new material.