How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

[mallet]

The title pretty much says it all.

 

In Turakian age setting, what do you think the character point totals of players would have to be the equivalent of 20th level DnD characters? How about 1st level characters?

 

I am starting a game with a bunch of newbies to the hero system, but they do know DnD. They are trying to wrap their heads around roughly how many cp in her equal a relative level in DnD.

 

I haven't played DnD in almost 20 years, so I have no idea. Is 350 points roughly 20th level, or 700? Can anyone here give me some ideas?

[Shadowsoul]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

I was once told by Bismark that a 1st level D&D character is equivalent to a 150 point Hero Character. 20th level would be built on a terrifying amount of points.

 

However, you should go and see Killershrike. For all your D&D conversion needs.

[Nevenall]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

It's really hard to say because different class/race combos will have wildly different combat effectiveness in DnD.

But, check out KillerShrike's web site. http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/Conversion3e/conversion3e.aspx he's done the most well regarded DnD conversions that I know of.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

Which edition?

AD&D2e

 

D&D3e

 

I wont be doing a 4e conversion, so your guess is as good as mine.

[Panpiper]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

My quick answer, depends on how fast one is used to leveling in D&D. If one is used to a level every four games, which I expect would be normal for most games, and further assumed that the average XP award in Hero is around 2.5 points per game, then a level would be equal to 10 character points, and 20th level would be roughly +200 points.

 

That sounds about right, as a 350 point fantasy character in Hero is an awesome character, about as awesome as I expect would be a level 20 character in D&D. What throws it off a bit is that a first level character in D&D is very wimpy. While a 150 point starting character in Hero, is already hero material (D&D equivalent to around levels 6-7).

[mallet]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

Thanks for the quick replies guys! Killershrike's stuff is great for some guidelines.

[Matt Holck]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

I never ran or played 20th level characters

I had switched to a skill based system I created

but I have run overly powerful wizards and magic items,

and when I let a player bring his character through without conversion,

he cut Cobra a 350 point villain into five parts

[mkultra]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

Which edition?

I wont be doing a 4e conversion, so your guess is as good as mine.

 

That too bad. Your conversion of 4e would probably have been amazing.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

Also, you might find some useful characters here:

 

Fantasy Characters

[Matt Holck]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

useful

[Yansuf]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

My quick answer, depends on how fast one is used to leveling in D&D. If one is used to a level every four games, which I expect would be normal for most games, and further assumed that the average XP award in Hero is around 2.5 points per game, then a level would be equal to 10 character points, and 20th level would be roughly +200 points.

 

That sounds about right, as a 350 point fantasy character in Hero is an awesome character, about as awesome as I expect would be a level 20 character in D&D. What throws it off a bit is that a first level character in D&D is very wimpy. While a 150 point starting character in Hero, is already hero material (D&D equivalent to around levels 6-7).

 

It has been a LONG time since I played D&D, but I think a first level fighter would be about 25 point base with No More than 25 points disadvantages (limitations).

So a 250 to 300 point character would probably be right for a 20th level fighter. Maybe a bit more to reflect the castle and vassals of a powerful lord, assuming the PC has gone that route.

BTW, I would allow the PC to add points from extra disadvantages, such as new hunteds.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

The simple fact is you can pick just about any point range you like, that makes sense to you. There is no objective, single answer to "how many points an X Lvl character of Y Game equals" type questions. Everything in the HERO System is relative and scalable. So long as you are internally consistent when you convert things over using your point range, it will work out ok in the end.

 

I picked the range that I did after considerable analysis and by converting many characters over. In fact, for the original AD&D2e version I went in both directions, converting characters from HERO to AD&D as well as the other way around. Not every single character works out exactly right; some are a little lower or higher based on how much stuff they have, certain abilities that are more expensive to convert than others, and so forth.

 

3e Clerics are the hardest to fit and required a special fixer option in the 3e divine magic conversion to allow their on the fly conversion of spells to heal or harm spells. However, overall the conversion guidelines have proven up to the task over converting the large majority of characters. So far I've only run into one character that defied it all together, a very (overly) powerul Elf multi-classed cleric with high stats and a permanent base from Ptolus-- just about a worst case scenario edge case; he converted out a few levels higher than his actual level; however I feel that the points accurately reflect that the character is overpowered in the source.

 

 

Anyway, I digress. The main thrust is, you can pick any arbitrary upper limit as being equivalent to "20th level" and work down or do as I did and decide where you want to start the game at, arrive at a mathematically regular experience point interval that you want to represent the equivalent of a "level" and add up letting the math determine what equates to 20th level. Just stay consistent and it should work out ok.

[Beast]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

see how many points it gets you to create each and every ability has

[mallet]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

Thanks for all the input guys. They main thing I was trying to do was balance it out while using all the Turakian, MMM, NNN creatures and monsters and badguys as writen for the setting and foes... and still explain "power levels" to my players.

[Doc]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

I'd say infinite, or zero, depending on the GM... (sorry Garry, but you kinda deserved this (another) one...! RIP)

[Tywyll]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

A big part of answering that question is 'do you charge points for gear'? Dnd characters (especially casters) are very powerful and self-contained at high level. But even a handful of their standard gear at 20th level could see their point value sky rocket. Not to mention the perks that dnd characters get for 'free' at high level that you would pay for (usually) in Hero.

[Alcamtar]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

I would guesstimate that a standard 175 point heroic character would be the equivalent of 5th to 7th level in old editions of D&D. This is based loosely on the capabilities of priest/wizard characters -- stuff like fireballs, raise dead spells, and so forth are quite affordable for a 175 pt character. Often D&D parties are characterized by the selection of plot-busting powers they have access to. A party with access to teleportation can walk right through an adventure that is very challenging to another party.

 

Harder to estimate Fighters since their effectiveness is more relative to the campaign. It depends a lot on any limits (CV, DC, etc) you have set, whether common humanoids (orcs, kobolds) are skilled warriors or everyman mooks, etc.

 

This of course tells you nothing about 20th level. Every campaign is going to be different due to style, GM limits and house rules, and character builds. I would suggest the best method is not to use a yardstick, but to sit down and stat up a few 20th level characters and then see what they look like. Again the spellcasters will be the easiest here.

 

As for me, I'm also looking hard at this question but my upper limit is 36th level... eek!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

Here are three 20th level straight conversions from published material (Ptolus) using the guidelines on my site:

 

Lord Durant Khatur (fighter 20)

Kargas the Bold (barbarian 20)

Melior Kalen / Barit Galomar (cleric 20)

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

I'd say about 350 points without paying for magic items 400-450 with. I equate, roughly 25pts to 2 levels and put 1st level at 100pts.

 

https://sites.google.com/a/tekhed.com/wilderlands/main/core-powers

 

It's all relative, but this is what I use for running d20 3E Dungeon Crawl Classics. Works great.

[Panpiper]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

I'd say that Killer Shrike's conversion work is a pretty darn definative answer to the question. All three of the examples there have the characters coming in at very close to 450 character points. First level D&D characters are awesomely wimpy characters compared to starting characters in Hero, I would peg them as 50 point characters myself. Which nicely leads to the notion that a D&D level corresponds roughly to 20 XP in Hero. So give a first level character 6 levels of XP to boost them to 7th level and voila, you have a starting Hero character. And a few of us have already ascribed a starting Hero character as being roughly equivalent to a level 6 or 7 D&D character.

[mattingly]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

I sometimes run a convention game that pits a team of 350-point superheroes against a team of 350-points D&D characters. I based the D&D abilities and ranges on 10th level. So I'd call a 20th level D&D character a 700-800 point character, depending on various magic items, path progressions, and such.

[Yansuf]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

At the risk of repeating myself, I don't think this question can be answered without first deciding how man points a first level character is.

[Alcamtar]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

Setting upper and lower benchmarks is indeed crucial. After thinking about it I agree with Panpiper, at least for versions of D&D prior to 3e. I'd peg them approximately:

 

zero-level normal: 35 pts

1st level: 55 pts

7th level: 175 pts

20th level: 435 pts

20 pts/level

 

A minimal normal is 25 pts so that's darn close. A 1st level character is really just a normal with some enhanced attributes and a skill or two. Fighting ability is almost the same as a normal. Killer Shrike's 20th level characters look about right.

 

For a 3e style of game, 1st levels are a lot more competent so I think I'd do something like this:

 

zero-level normal: 25-50 pts

1st level: 115 pts

5th level: 175 pts

20th level: 400 pts

15 pts/level

[Markdoc]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

As already noted, there's no real hard and fast rule. I tend myself to use a rule of thumb that a level is "about" 25 points. However, while 25 points coresponds relatively well to say a 1st level rogue or fighter, it's actualy damn near impossible to build a 1st level cleric for that. My guiding rule for "first level" is that they should be able to take a few angry townsmen (Hero Stat.s in the 8-12 range, no armour, no weapon proficiencies) but not a dozen or more, because that's about what a first level character in D&D can do. However, for many a 1st level character, a single wolf is a pretty decent challenge in D&D, while a Hero system wolf would give your average 25 point character a really hard time - indicating the fact that not everything scales nicely.

 

cheers, Mark

[Kraven Kor]

Re: How many character points do you think a 20th level DnD character would have?

 

In 4e I converted my 17th level Wizard from AD&D 2nd Edition to FH. His spellbook alone was over 400 points. I also converted an Ancient Wyrm Black Dragon who came in around 900 points (and it again had a hefty amount of points dedicated to its spellcasting.)

 

I'd imagine a 20th level, 3.5 character would be upwards of 500 points, possibly over 1000 if a spellcaster, depending on how you do the magic system.