Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

[Vondy]

I'm posting this here because while "sword and planet" isn't fantasy the aesthetic is much the same.

 

And this forum gets more traffic than some of the other places I could put it.

 

I've been fiddling with a low-tech far future Earth after some hinted at catastrophe. I didn't want it to be immediately clear the planet was the earth and started looking for unusual landmasses. I came up with a mostly deglaciated Antarctica. Some research, however, threw up some problems. Namely, unless I knock the planet on its side Keith Curtiss style I have serious climate issues...

 

Coastal regions (the most habitable) will have seasonal winds reaching 200 MPH.

Winter temperatures will still drop to lethal lows.

Extreme day-night seasonal shifts (including several months of no sun).

Very little precipitation (except for the peninsula).

 

But still, the auroras, interesting sun cycle and visual effects, and whatnot give it an otherworldly feel and make for some interesting cultural jumping off points. Visually, not so attractive outside the growing season: mostly a land of bogs and lakes that freezes over in winter. But it also has lots of active volcanoes and the opportunity for hot springs. I want to use it.

 

Winds and winter lows can be dealt with by constructing underground shelters, settlements, or even tunnel cities. I can model vegetation on various known tundras, and keep the native wildlife plus some tundra-arctic imports. This is mostly conducive to seasonal hunting and gathering, though herding-gathering might be possible as well. If you could find wood (maybe on the peninsular tip) summer whaling would be possible. But this means low population and retarded cultural development. Overall, I'm still left with civilization issues. Most notably:

 

What is a reasonable summer temp for a hot-Earth Antarctica without glaciers? A balmy 30-40 degrees?

What sorts of husbandry is possible-productive in this environment?

Agriculture with permafrost and a sixty day growing environment?

 

The latter is the biggest problem. There could be genetically engineered holdovers from "the world that came before," but I want to keep that to a minimum. Some millets are very fast growing and could grow in the tundra, which could supply winter feed for any domesticated animals, especially if raised earth and lake fed irrigation are employed (extending the season). Maybe some winter vegetables could be grown this way? Cabbages, brussels sprouts, etc. Lichen (en mass in the biomass is edible with many rinsings and, it seems, can be turned into booze AND Molasses). And then there are naturally occurring grasses and herbs that could be domesticated.

 

Still, what kind of population could it really support? Settlements of a few hundred?

 

How would a city state develop?

[Matt Holck]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

I think sea life would still be abundant non a hot earth so I imagine a larger population along the coast

[Vondy]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Here's a map of a deglaciated Antarctica...

 

No Ice!

[薔薇語]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Aren't there currently people living on the islands south of Chile? Seems like a good place to start, IMO.

 

Also, if you aren't wanting to run a long stream of "genetically modified" this and that, but are unsure how you can get any noticeable population sizes, then have you given any thought to human adaption? I.e., the generations that developed on Antarctic after the collapse have by a lucky fluke developed an unnatural (by today's standard) resistance to the cold and a decreased need for food?

 

Also, have you given thought to what the various cultural standards would be in a world like that? I.e., with scare resources, fat becomes a sign of power / influence. Role of women? Religions and belief structures that formed from the fallout? etc?

 

La Rose.

[McCoy]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Fairbanks gets into the 70's (F) in the summer, and that's on top of permafrost. See no reason why a deglaciated Antarctica can't do that.

 

Depending on how low tech is low tech, if your inhabitants can make glass greehouses and cold frame could extend your growing season, start plants inside and transplant them after the last killing frost.

[Vondy]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Fairbanks gets into the 70's (F) in the summer' date=' and that's on top of permafrost. See no reason why a deglaciated Antarctica can't do that. [/quote']

 

I'll do some research.

 

Depending on how low tech is low tech' date=' if your inhabitants can make glass greehouses and cold frame could extend your growing season, start plants inside and transplant them after the last killing frost.[/quote']

 

I like the idea of starting plants inside and them transplanting them. I also discovered hemp and potatoes grow well in tundra. As a result I have access to the super-versatile-weed. The tech level I was shooting for was something along the lines of frazetta in furs. A smart bronze age or early iron age culture. They're probably fairly clever/innovative in terms of pre-industrial technologies.

[Vondy]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Aren't there currently people living on the islands south of Chile? Seems like a good place to start, IMO.

 

Also, if you aren't wanting to run a long stream of "genetically modified" this and that, but are unsure how you can get any noticeable population sizes, then have you given any thought to human adaption? I.e., the generations that developed on Antarctic after the collapse have by a lucky fluke developed an unnatural (by today's standard) resistance to the cold and a decreased need for food?

 

Could work. I'll chew on it.

 

I did find a link to a study that found the Saami people had a superior physiological reaction to cold than the control group they were with due to acclimation. It could be man was engineered, or merely evolved, to deal with the cold better. As I put in my response to McCoy, it turns out hemp and potatoes grow well in tundra, which solves a chunk of my food problems.

 

Also' date=' have you given thought to what the various cultural standards would be in a world like that? I.e., with scare resources, fat becomes a sign of power / influence. Role of women? Religions and belief structures that formed from the fallout? etc?[/quote']

 

This is a post on its own. I have certain themes I want to explore (social, philosophical, religious). I have the superstructure of a culture worked out. It is very different from the modern west.

 

More later.

[Panpiper]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

How about postulating that what caused the 'apocalypse' was not something man made. I know, that runs against fashion, as we like to imagine that we cause our own destruction. But for the sake of a fantasy game, I have an idea that might make the players think that they are not on Earth at all.

 

The cause of the catastrophe was a rogue extra solar moon that wandered into the solar system and just barely missed the Earth. It interacted with the Earth/Moon system however in a major way and got captured, the Earth now has two moons. Our original moon is now in a much lower orbit and slightly elliptical, and the other moon is in a highly elliptical orbit and well off the plane of ecliptic. The result on the Earth was catastrophic, causing massive volcanic activity and, most importantly, an axial shift.

 

This would have been in the distant past, allowing the Earth to have settled somewhat, how distant depends on how you wish to postulate the remains/evidence of current earth technology. But there is no biological reason to inhibit placing your game a hundred thousand years or more into the future.

 

The tides would be much stronger, and there would be more volcanic activity, especially when the new moon swung close by on it's orbit every few months.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Ariel, Ookla, Riiiiiide!

[lemming]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Hyperman is thinking the same as I.

 

I like rotating the world so Antarctica wouldn't be covered in ice and placing other continents at the poles.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Hyperman is thinking the same as I.

 

I like rotating the world so Antarctica wouldn't be covered in ice and placing other continents at the poles.

Well, Panpiper inspired the Thundarr reference when he mentioned "rogue extra solar moon".

[Cancer]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

If you deglaciate Antarctica, you will get some isostatic rebound (the crust isn't being held down by the weight of all the ice) so some extension of the land around the coastal regions can be expected. How much depends on the slope of the coast. This rebound probably will (in the long run) more than compensate for the higher sea level that happens on a warm Earth (due to the ice meltin and going into the oceans, and the thermal expansion of the water in the oceans). I think the rebound might be on the order of meters (i.e., one to ten meters of altitude all over the continent, though it'll take 100,000 years to complete ... how much of it you have for your game-world map depends on how long it's been since your warming apocalypse.

 

High-altitude environments resemble, somewhat, low-altitude circumpolar environments. You might look at the means of life for high plateau peoples, like those in Tibet, the Andes, maybe Mongolia. You already know about the potato. Maybe flax seed or something like it becomes a staple, since that plant has a short growing season and a relatively high oil content, important for animals living in a cold environment. The "somewhat resemble" is important. High altitudes tend to be cold and dry and low atmospheric pressure, and the low pressure drives changes in animal species, adaptations for improved respiration. Those adaptations aren't needed in a low-altitude cold environment. Plants usually only care about cold and dry.

 

An external vitamin D source (like fish or frequent animal liver) is essential at high latitudes. There isn't enough sunlight for humans to synthesize adequate vitamin D. The high latitude peoples that I remember reading about are all herders or coastal, both of whom have continual access to vitamin D-rich foods. You may also have problems with vitamin C (scurvy) if the growing season is too short and plants are too rare.

 

I recently read an article on the (nearly vanished) high-altitude Andean forest, but I can't find it now. If I come across it again I'll post the reference.

 

Looking at that Wikipedia map ... assuming no change in obliquity (that is, the tilt of the Earth's rotation axis w/r/t the orbital plane) then there will be lots of places in pocket valleys in the mountains which never receive direct sunlight, though they will have indirect sunlight all spring & summer. The maximum altitude of the Sun is (latitude - 23 degrees), and at 80 degrees S that means at most a 57 degree altitude. My guess is those spots will remain filled with snow cover if not old ice cap ice.

 

Depending on the times involved in your apocalypse ... remember that we seem to be heading into a magnetic field reversal event now, and some of the simplest ways of guessing what that'll be has it a couple thousand years out. It won't last long (that much is clear from the geological record), no more than a century, but you can if you want be in the time when there's increased cosmic ray penetration to Earth's surface and no geomagnetic navigation possible, which affects both humans and animals.

[Yansuf]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Have you considered making it millions of years in the future?

Continental drift could move Antarctica north, it doesn't have to be that much north to change everything. Once part of its land extends north enough that you don't have the "free ocean circle" between Antarctica and South America the weather seriously changes.

Of course you have to work out why there are still humans, but that is possible. Their ancestors went into cold sleep or better yet stasis (for whatever reason) and you can have a stock of current day animals that were also preserved, along with the new animals evolved in the meantime.

If you have seen the Discover channel program "The Earth is Wild" you can get some ideas there.

[Vondy]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

If you deglaciate Antarctica, you will get some isostatic rebound (the crust isn't being held down by the weight of all the ice) so some extension of the land around the coastal regions can be expected. How much depends on the slope of the coast. This rebound probably will (in the long run) more than compensate for the higher sea level that happens on a warm Earth (due to the ice meltin and going into the oceans, and the thermal expansion of the water in the oceans). I think the rebound might be on the order of meters (i.e., one to ten meters of altitude all over the continent, though it'll take 100,000 years to complete ... how much of it you have for your game-world map depends on how long it's been since your warming apocalypse.

 

High-altitude environments resemble, somewhat, low-altitude circumpolar environments. You might look at the means of life for high plateau peoples, like those in Tibet, the Andes, maybe Mongolia. You already know about the potato. Maybe flax seed or something like it becomes a staple, since that plant has a short growing season and a relatively high oil content, important for animals living in a cold environment. The "somewhat resemble" is important. High altitudes tend to be cold and dry and low atmospheric pressure, and the low pressure drives changes in animal species, adaptations for improved respiration. Those adaptations aren't needed in a low-altitude cold environment. Plants usually only care about cold and dry. An external vitamin D source (like fish or frequent animal liver) is essential at high latitudes. There isn't enough sunlight for humans to synthesize adequate vitamin D. The high latitude peoples that I remember reading about are all herders or coastal, both of whom have continual access to vitamin D-rich foods. You may also have problems with vitamin C (scurvy) if the growing season is too short and plants are too rare.

 

I recently read an article on the (nearly vanished) high-altitude Andean forest, but I can't find it now. If I come across it again I'll post the reference.

 

Looking at that Wikipedia map ... assuming no change in obliquity (that is, the tilt of the Earth's rotation axis w/r/t the orbital plane) then there will be lots of places in pocket valleys in the mountains which never receive direct sunlight, though they will have indirect sunlight all spring & summer. The maximum altitude of the Sun is (latitude - 23 degrees), and at 80 degrees S that means at most a 57 degree altitude. My guess is those spots will remain filled with snow cover if not old ice cap ice.

 

Depending on the times involved in your apocalypse ... remember that we seem to be heading into a magnetic field reversal event now, and some of the simplest ways of guessing what that'll be has it a couple thousand years out. It won't last long (that much is clear from the geological record), no more than a century, but you can if you want be in the time when there's increased cosmic ray penetration to Earth's surface and no geomagnetic navigation possible, which affects both humans and animals.

 

Its interesting that you mentioned the magnetic field. I was considering a collapse of the magnetic field as the catastrophe that brought about an end to the "world that was before." I'm not fully committed to it. It has interesting implications. I appreciate your other ideas and observations.

 

It gives me more to work with. I asssumed their diet would consist of potatoes, various hemp derivatives, various ground cover plants, and a good deal of fish, seal, whale, petrel, penguin, and arctic imports from long ago - perhaps caribou, musk ox, polar bear, arctic fox, arctic rabbit, and their like. Flax would be a good quick growing crop.

 

In terms of Vitamin C and D (great point that didn't occur to me, by the way) I ran across the following on the arctic studies site:

 

How do people in the Arctic get enough Vitamin C and D if there is little sun and a limited amount of fresh fruits and vegetables?

 

While the sun (which is necessary to produce vitamin D) may not be out long in the winter, the extended periods of daylight in the arctic summer more than compensate, allowing people to get plenty of vitamin D. And although there are scarcely any fresh fruits or vegetables available year round to eat in the Arctic, people gain the necessary amount of vitamin C through the consumption of raw meats, which are naturally high in vitamin C.

 

It may be they consider "steak tartar" the proper preparation for meat and consider cooking it unenlightened, barbaric, or just plain gauche.

 

I was looking at a combination of seal/whale oil, turf, and dried animal dung for fire-fuel. I'm not sure about phosphorensent plants or minerals as supplemental lighting sources.

 

More later.

[Vondy]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Ariel, Ookla, Riiiiiide!

 

 

Um.... no. But, thank you.

[Vondy]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Have you considered making it millions of years in the future?

Continental drift could move Antarctica north, it doesn't have to be that much north to change everything. Once part of its land extends north enough that you don't have the "free ocean circle" between Antarctica and South America the weather seriously changes.

Of course you have to work out why there are still humans, but that is possible. Their ancestors went into cold sleep or better yet stasis (for whatever reason) and you can have a stock of current day animals that were also preserved, along with the new animals evolved in the meantime.

 

I kind of want to work with the resultant tundra environment and odd day-night cycle. Its not an environment that's used often. How the environment affects their culture is an interesting part of the culture building exercise. It would be interesting to see how a plate-techtonic shift affected things, but I'm in no way qualified to model or theorize on it. I'm thinking it will be many thousands of years from now.

 

If you have seen the Discover channel program "The Earth is Wild" you can get some ideas there.

 

I'll see if I can find it.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Chenopodium, a plant family better known as "Goosefoot," although including current wonder-food quinoa, occurs worldwide, including in Greenland and the other high Atlantic islands. It is a traditional Hebrides food crop, and has been found in Greenland Viking stool. I believe that there is, or was, a species recognised as "Greenland Goosfoot," although I don't see it listed in Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goosefoot). Anyway, the high latitude varieties flourish in short growing seasons, and, in particular, in boggy ground. So there's another one for you.

[Vondy]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Chenopodium' date=' [/i']a plant family better known as "Goosefoot," although including current wonder-food quinoa, occurs worldwide, including in Greenland and the other high Atlantic islands. It is a traditional Hebrides food crop, and has been found in Greenland Viking stool. I believe that there is, or was, a species recognised as "Greenland Goosfoot," although I don't see it listed in Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goosefoot). Anyway, the high latitude varieties flourish in short growing seasons, and, in particular, in boggy ground. So there's another one for you.

 

Excellent!

 

Thanks!

[L. Marcus]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Re. raw meat -- remember, if it comes directly from a fresh kill, it's sterile. No germs!

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Ooh, can't believe I missed this one: Kerguelen cabbage. It's more of a kitchen garden plant than a major food crop, but it is (obviously) well adapted to maritime Antarctic conditions, and might even self-seed the Antarctic littoral during the early "refuge" phase, so being available as a wild food in the early stages of human colonisation. Well, really, hand-wave away on that one.

Speaking of which, deglaciation would presumably make Kerguelen Land and South Georgia much more inhabitable than they currently are. Not that this would be hard. They lie within the Antarctic weather systems and so might be preserved for life in the same way as Antarctica --more hand-waving, I admit. Crustal rebound would probably increase their land area, as well, and I can even visualise Kerguelen developing forests, at least in the flat ground in the immediate lee of the mountain mass, east of Port-aux-Francais. Kerguelen is, in fact, the submerged portion of a "micro-continent," although the discouraging upshot of the scientific work is that a gain of a few 10s of metres of elevation is not going to bring much of it to the surface.

[Vondy]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Ooh' date=' can't believe I missed this one: Kerguelen cabbage. It's more of a kitchen garden plant than a major food crop, but it is (obviously) well adapted to maritime Antarctic conditions, and might even self-seed the Antarctic littoral during the early "refuge" phase, so being available as a wild food in the early stages of human colonisation. Well, really, hand-wave away on that one.

Speaking of which, deglaciation would presumably make Kerguelen Land and South Georgia much more inhabitable than they currently are. Not that this would be hard. They lie within the Antarctic weather systems and so might be preserved for life in the same way as Antarctica --more hand-waving, I admit. Crustal rebound would probably increase their land area, as well, and I can even visualise Kerguelen developing forests, at least in the flat ground in the immediate lee of the mountain mass, east of Port-aux-Francais. Kerguelen is, in fact, the submerged portion of a "micro-continent," although the discouraging upshot of the scientific work is that a gain of a few 10s of metres of elevation is not going to bring much of it to the surface.

 

Interesting. More research to do.

 

I did a bunch of writing on the overall cultural structure of my starting culture - the Hodj.

 

I'm going to work in how their environment impacts their customs, celebrations, culture, etc.

[McCoy]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

It gives me more to work with. I asssumed their diet would consist of potatoes, various hemp derivatives, various ground cover plants, and a good deal of fish, seal, whale, petrel, penguin, and arctic imports from long ago - perhaps caribou, musk ox, polar bear, arctic fox, arctic rabbit, and their like. Flax would be a good quick growing crop.

 

In terms of Vitamin C and D (great point that didn't occur to me, by the way)

If you're importing polar bears, remember that polar bear liver is taboo because it is so rich in Vitamin D that it is toxic to humans and most other mammals.

 

Could lead to a Quest. The Shaman says that a child, or the children of one household, are in danger of developing the Softbone Disease, and he needs the liver of a white bear to cure it. The warriors kill a polar bear, bring the Shaman its liver, and the Shaman prepares very small weekly doses of polar bear liver puree for the children to take until spring.

 

Have you considered making it millions of years in the future?

Continental drift could move Antarctica north,

Surprisingly, at least I was surprised when I realized it, Antarctica doesn't drift as much as the other continents.

[薔薇語]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Could lead to a Quest. The Shaman says that a child' date=' or the children of one household, are in danger of developing the Softbone Disease, and he needs the liver of a white bear to cure it. The warriors kill a polar bear, bring the Shaman its liver, and the Shaman prepares very small weekly doses of polar bear liver puree for the children to take until spring.[/quote']

 

That is a great idea, McCoy. Rep!

 

La Rose.

[assault]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Some cool archeological stuff: Antarctic Dinosaurs.

 

"Summary:

If you want to see some of the most wonderful and plentiful fossils in the world, you'll have to travel to Seymour Island in Antarctica. According to our resident palaeontologist, Paul Willis, Seymour Island is the best place in the world to actually see the KT Boundary, the day 65million years ago when the dinosaurs died."

 

Lots of neat stuff.

[薔薇語]

Re: Postapocalytpic Antarctica (Problems/Questions)?

 

Interesting, Assault. I know Vondy mentioned that this thread isn't about the culture issues, just the environmental ones, but I wonder if Dino Fossils will lead to interesting myths about the world? Mix a few stories of a past greatness, Dino Bones, Gozilla stories and time, and you could get some interesting myths about the horrors of advancement.

 

La Rose.