New Gamers

[Lucius]

Re: New Gamers

 

23 years.

The same as the number of new hobbyists who started gaming cold with, say, D&D 3rd or 4th edition. Exactly zero. That's my point. Lucius aside, almost no one starts playing RPGs all by themselves. They virtually always start by being "mentored" by existing players. And I've known several whose first RPG was Hero, including some where I've been the "mentor."

 

D&D was first published in 1974. Within a couple of years, it was popular enough that a few other role playing games had been created to compete with it.

 

Somehow, I really doubt that Gary Gygax, Dave Arneson, and their close associates, spent most of their time in the mid seventies criss-crossing the country to meet in person with people that bought their game and teaching them to play it.

 

Learning one's first role playing game by buying and reading the rules is not only possible, at one time it was common, in fact, the only possible way for most people to learn. Otherwise, there wouldn't BE a role playing game “industry” and we wouldn't be here talking about it.

 

What could be done about it? Not much, I think. I don't expect Steve and Darren to re-issue the basic books; trimming page counts would destroy all the page references in the genre books and other books.

 

On the other hand, as has been pointed out....

 

I'd like to point out that the Hero System Basic Rules book is 136 pages' date=' and is a complete game system in itself. I'm not sure how much more "newbie-friendly" you can get without having Steve or Darren come to your house and teach you the game personally.[/quote']

 

But then I have to point out in return – yes, you can get a lot more “newbie-friendly” than what's been done. Yes, putting out a slimmed down Basic Rulebook was a very good thing. But that book is still written for people who already play role playing games; as far as I can see, it wasn't written with any idea in mind that it could ever fall into the hands of someone who actually is not already familiar with role playing.

 

 

And how many new hobbyists do you know who started gaming cold with 5th or 6th edition without a mentor?

 

Not experienced gamers who migrated, but fresh gaming meat.

 

You just described me.

 

Then I have to admit, Bigbywolfe – I'm impressed.

 

I think your perspective could be very valuable then.

 

Frankly' date=' I'm getting lost in this discussion. [/quote']

You could go back to my original post.

 

First I'm told that I'm wrong because people new to the RPG hobby can't pick up the Hero rules cold and teach themselves.

 

Bigbywolf proves that it's possible. I maintain that it can and should be made easier.

 

Then when I point out that people new to the RPG hobby almost always play whatever the people who introduce them happen to play (rather than picking up a book cold),

 

I, Bigbywolfe, Escafarc, Torchwolf, Hugh Neilson, and at the very least several thousand (probably tens of thousands) of people in the mid to late 1970's alone prove that this is not necessarily the case.

 

I'm told I'm wrong because existing RPGers who like to learn and teach new games don't often choose Hero as a game to do that with. Whatever. These goalposts seem to be on wheels to me...

 

I don't think anyone's moving the goalposts. But different people are trying to play different games on the same field (thread.)

 

In any case, the statement

 

The Hero Games rules (including the Basis Rules) were written with the assumption that only experienced roleplayers would ever even pick up the book,

 

and

 

There is anecdotal evidence that the influential gamers who decide what rules sets their groups use are sometimes turned off by the size of the Hero System's “core rules”

 

are both true statements, as far as they go.

 

I think it's also true that the second can be responded to with “it would help if those gamers were made aware of the existence of the smaller, cheaper Basic Rules.”

 

This is an interesting point to bring up. Here's my take: telling people what a role playing game is is almost insulting.

 

I don't understand why you think that. There's a section in the rules already called “If you're new to Hero.” Do you find that insulting? If not, why would an “If you're new to roleplaying” section be offensive?

 

It assumes that they can not understand basic language.

 

Uh, no, it only assumes that some people might be unfamiliar with roleplaying games.

 

If I walked out my door and started asking random people on the street, do you honestly think I'd run into lots of people who know? Frankly, I'd expect to go through ten or twenty people before finding even one who knew (prior to my explanation) what I was talking about. In fact, I'd probably a few people who think I'm talking about computers or sexual kinks or psychotherapy (or in need of psychotherapy) before finding someone who understood.

 

Maybe I've been gaming too long (~30 years)' date=' but I can't conceive of anyone buying an RPG rulebook and not knowing what it was.[/quote']

 

Funny, I would have thought it the other way around...those of us like you and I would be able to remember when that was the usual case, whereas those who got in later found an established “gamer culture” to be inducted into. I mean, if you got started in 1980, even if you were joining an established group, wasn't there someone still there who had STARTED the group after being the first on the block to buy D&D or whatever it was?

 

Which is' date=' I think, the point of the majority. I would wager most/all people would never walk into a store and say "I have no idea what X does/is/works, I think I'll buy this and give it a go!"[/quote']

 

For the record: I liked The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Someone who knew that said “Hey, you might like this new game.” So I got mom to buy it for my birthday.

 

I was in a bar a couple weeks ago, listening to a couple guys who 20 years ago would likely have never heard of DnD avidly describing their Characters for what was obviously a Computer Game and the action involved.

 

I believe that we have reached an point where the majority (certainly not all, but most) people have a basic understanding of what Role Playing is, and don't need half a page telling them that they're going to invent and play a fictional person in a series of adventures set up by someone else. The specifics of How may still be fuzzy - but that's why we have the rulebooks. But the What is definitely in the popular subconscious at this point.

 

You might even be right. I'm just not convinced that it's soaked into the “popular subconscious” as thoroughly as you are saying.

 

It might even be that people like Bigbywolfe, who have only recently started gaming and came into it cold in the same way I did more than thirty years ago, are a vanishingly small minority, and those who say “Everyone (or nearly everyone) gets started with a mentor or group these days and no one has to start from scratch anymore” are also right.

 

On the other hand: all I'm asking for is maybe half a page.

 

Having been a former store owner, I know the power and profitability of Magical Grandma Money, that poor bewildered shopper with a vague idea of her relative's hobby but wanting to find a gift that will make their eyes light up on opening. PS238 HERO brilliantly fit this need but HERO 6th ain't it by a long shot.

 

Maybe we need more products like PS238. Hm. Maybe I should look into it myself, in fact.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I was totally unprepared the first time I saw a palindromedary

[teh bunneh]

Re: New Gamers

 

But then I have to point out in return – yes' date=' you can get a lot more “newbie-friendly” than what's been done. Yes, putting out a slimmed down Basic Rulebook was a very good thing. But that book is still written for people who already play role playing games; as far as I can see, it wasn't written with any idea in mind that it could ever fall into the hands of someone who actually is not already familiar with role playing.[/quote']

 

In your opinion. Putting in a half-page or a full page or a ten page explanation of what a role-playing game may or may not "fix" what may or may not actually be a problem.

 

The Hero Games rules (including the Basis Rules) were written with the assumption that only experienced roleplayers would ever even pick up the book,

 

are both true statements, as far as they go.

 

No, it's not a true statement. It's just your opinion. Believing something really, really strongly does not make it a fact.

 

Maybe we need more products like PS238. Hm. Maybe I should look into it myself, in fact.

 

If you want more products like that, you should tell the publisher -- by purchasing one or more copies, and by convincing your gaming groups to purchase one or more copies. Talk is cheap.

[casualplayer]

Re: New Gamers

 

D&D used to crossmarket into things like dear, departed Omni and Games Magazine and also into comics. Anyone else remember the Willingham storyline adverts?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: New Gamers

 

In my first post, I said "at this point, the percentage of new pen-and-paper RPG players who start in the hobby by picking up an RPG book and reading it, is so close to zero as to be insignificant." (emphasis added)

 

"At this point" is very different from the late 70's, for three huge reasons that come immediately to mind:

1. Pen-and-Paper RPGs were the hot new craze back then, spreading like wildfire. People were more likely to have heard of this mysterious "Dungeons and Dragons" fad then they were to know someone who played it already.
2. Back then, there hadn't been 35 years of history with RPGs to get the basic concept into the general consciousness. People were curious about D&D, but didn't necessarily know what it really was. Now, I think it's more likely reversed. They know essentially what it is, but aren't necessarily interested in playing it (at least, not in its low-tech form).
3. The general fantasy game concept is available now in so many more sensorily-gratifying and quickly-digested forms, that the real appeal of the old PnP RPG is its social aspect, making it even more likely that folks getting into it now are doing it as a social activity (i.e., with other people).

 

On Vondy's point about experienced gamers not seeing Hero as a good "learn-and-teach" game, I think (after reflection) that he's right. But I don't think it really needs to be, because that's not its niche. That's not to say that it would hurt anything to make it less imposing to those not already experienced with it. (I've stated before in other threads that if I were in Steve's place, I would have chosen a much different approach to the core rules; where Steve errs on the side of inclusion, I would err on the side of brevity.)

 

But gamers attracted to the "learn and teach" tend to be (sorta by definition) folks who enjoy learning new rules engines and trying them out. Whereas the whole point of a "universal" RPG such as Hero or GURPS is to not do that... to instead only have to learn one rules engine, and be able to use that for many games, regardless of genre or setting, etc. So while I agree that the system may be denser than it needs to be, and wouldn't mind that density being spread out a bit, I don't think it necessarily follows that if it were less dense, more "learn-and-teach" gamers would be attracted to it. Some, perhaps. But by and large, I think Hero is aiming to capture the other side of the market... the gamers who don't like jumping from game system to game system...

[Lucius]

Re: New Gamers

 

In your opinion.

 

I have pretty much gone over both volumes of 6th Ed.

 

I have Hero Basic, but I admit I have not yet gone through it that thoroughly.

 

So if there is one paragraph, even one line, that is addressed to people who don't already know what a role playing game is, that you know of, please tell me where to find it.

 

And it there isn't - there isn't.

 

Either it's there or it's not. Either way, it's a fact, not an opinion.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

It's my opinion that this post has a palindromedary tagline.

[Lucius]

Re: New Gamers

 

I just got off the phone with a hot gamer chick.

 

Her hotness and chickiness aren't especially relevant, but she is the one who lent me her 4th edition D&D books. And she was just telling me how her friends and co-workers, when they hear about her hobby, have to have it explained to them - because they don't have a clue what a role playing game is.

 

Maybe it makes a difference that we're in Indianapolis?

 

There's an "alternative" weekly newspaper in Indianapolis called Nuvo. Not many months ago, Nuvo ran an article in which there was an offhand reference to Dungeons and Dragons, "You know, the board game." (emphasis added.)

 

Yes, there are a lot of people out there who know (if a little vaguely) what a role playing game is, even among those who haven't played one - but I maintain that there are still a lot MORE people who DON'T.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Now I'm going to go give a hot gamer chick a ride on my palindromedary

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: New Gamers

 

Yes' date=' there are a lot of people out there who know (if a little vaguely) what a role playing game is, even among those who haven't played one - but I maintain that there are still a lot MORE people who DON'T. [/quote']And how many of those who don't do you think would be likely to walk into a game store, pick up an RPG book, and try to teach it to themselves? Not many, I'd have to think. The (very small) number of people who might attempt to do that at this point in time, I would have to think, would almost certainly be among those who do know what a role-playing game is, even if they haven't played one.

[teh bunneh]

Re: New Gamers

 

I have pretty much gone over both volumes of 6th Ed.

 

I have Hero Basic, but I admit I have not yet gone through it that thoroughly.

 

So if there is one paragraph, even one line, that is addressed to people who don't already know what a role playing game is, that you know of, please tell me where to find it.

 

And it there isn't - there isn't.

 

Either it's there or it's not. Either way, it's a fact, not an opinion.

 

I don't know. Tell me, precisely, what you mean by "addressed to people who don't already know what a role playing game is." That seems like a pretty broad statement, open to any number of interpretations.

 

I suspect that the only answer that would satisfy you is, "There needs to be a few pages addressed to defining what a RPG is." You're fishing for the answer you want. Nothing else will satisfy you; nothing I say, or could show you, can possibly change your mind. You want me to validate your opinion, to confirm that it's a "fact". But, sorry, I can't. I disagree with your core assumption.

 

Your core assumptions seem to be that a paragraph (or page, or ten pages) in a book can teach a person what roleplaying is (and presumably, how to roleplay), and that therefore the Hero books should contain such a paragraph (because, in your mind, nothing that's already in the books is suitable for this task). And furthermore, because the Hero books don't contain such a paragraph, that they are therefore unsuitable for a person's first (and even later) roleplaying experiences.

 

I find these assumptions to be flawed and just a little bit pollyanna-ish, to put it politely.

[Rapier]

Re: New Gamers

 

I find these assumptions to be flawed and just a little bit pollyanna-ish' date=' to put it politely.[/quote']

 

FIGHT FIGHT! My $ is on teh bunneh. He fights dirty.

[Tasha]

Re: New Gamers

 

I taught myself how to play D&D way back in 1977 or so. I found the section of "what is a Role Playing game" was a waste even then. In those days there was a ton of talk about this new game where people worked together to delve pretend dungeons and bring back treasures both mundane like gold and as mystical as magical items. It was the kind of game that never ended. You would finish a session and pick up again from where you left off last time. Regular people then had an idea of what D&D was, but hadn't put D&D together with RPG. I find that's still the case today. Most mundane people don't know what a RPG is, but they DO know what Dungeons and Dragons is. Heck some of them may have even played when they were younger, while in High School, College or in the Military.

 

It took me some time to find some kids that hadn't already tried it and given up on it or had been in insular groups that weren't taking new players. Once I found a group I found that they played differently than I had figured on. So, the group changed the way I played. We also experimented with board games and with games like Traveller. So yes we were self taught, but the funny thing is that the group is self taught. If find that each person brings a slightly different interpretation of the rules to the table and that brings everyone a greater knowledge of the rules.

 

I kind of doubt that you get many people just randomly picking up RPG books that don't already have at least a vague notion of what a Role Playing game IS. Do we really need a page or two telling them what a RPG is or are the pages better spent on explaining what THIS RPG does that the other games don't do.

 

As for Hero being "hard". It is one of a few Universal Systems available (GURPS is the other big universal system). Universal systems tend to be a bit harder just because they don't come with a genre/campaign attached to focus the rules and ignore the bits that don't fit in the specific genre. So a game like Hero tends to be a more advanced game than D&D, it needs more rules because the rules have to accommodate multiple genres. Also a huge section of the Hero Rules deals with Character generation 6e1's 441 pages of Character gen can seem huge, but at least I can build anything I can imagine with that book. If I want to play something not in the D&D rule books I need to buy more books that has the character class I need which makes the character gen page count a more slippery target.

 

This thread started by asking: Do we need a section "What is a RolePlaying Game?" in the Hero system rules. It has splintered into arguments about how hard the rules are and how many pages the rules are, but I don't think that hard rules or long page counts have anything to do with the original question.

 

It probably speaks to an issue with 5er and 6e rules trying so very hard to have examples/rules that cover every circumstance a hero player might run into. Before those editions were released the editors made a huge effort to keep page count down and actually edited out extra examples to keep things simpler. DOJ Hero has a different philosophy, which is good and bad. It's good that one can go to the rules and find fairly clear rules with good examples covering your rule question. It bad because it does make the rules VERY long and can be a bit intimidating to new players. Efforts by previous editor/writers to create a rules light version of hero was met with hatred (FUZION...)by the fanbase. So Steve has to be very careful with sidekick that he have an edition that still is enough like the base rules that the fanbase doesn't rebel, but still keep those rules easy enough that noobs can play.

 

I think that the rules are what we asked for with our comments on the boards and with our pocket books though the years. It's an advanced system, I don't see any real want in the fanbase to want to dumb down the rules. In fact leading up to 6e and after 6e launch, what I saw was an effort to add things that would make the rules harder in many cases.

 

Tasha

[Tasha]

Re: New Gamers

 

FIGHT FIGHT! My $ is on teh bunneh. He fights dirty.

 

"Toute nation a le gouvernement qu'elle merite [Every country has the government it deserves]." --Josephe de Maistre, Lettres et Opuscules Inedites (1851) vol.1, letter 53 (15 August 1811)

 

I saw that quote in your signature and I say that it applies to our rule system as well. We have the rule system we deserve. In otherwords we got the rule system we asked for in over 10 years of griping about 4e and 5e. Steve gave us the stuff that we wanted and that we came up as "good ideas" for a new edition. We made our beds and we need to deal with it and move on. There were hundreds of posts about how Strength and Dex were over powered for the points spend, hell there's still threads about it in 6e and Steve fixed most of the issues that people griped about. Now I don't want to restart the figured chars fight, but I do want to point out that many many people griped about this one thing and Steve took what he thought was the best way to deal with the issue. We basically got what we asked for.

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: New Gamers

 

As in' date=' "Captain Oscar?"[/quote']

 

As in http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Foxtrot%20Oscar

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: New Gamers

 

Kinda like this is supposed to be?

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/79349-April-2010-Adventure-Design-Challenge-The-Starter-Adventure

 

Yes, something like that, but very much a stripped down, new player oriented version. A showcase of what is great in the game, demonstrating both versatility and depth. That would be a real asset to the books in my opinion. I think that there is an awful lot in the books that doe not need to be there and, possibly because Hero has been going so long, a lot that should be there but isn't.

[pinecone]

Re: New Gamers

 

I didn't the first time.

 

Apparently that puts me in a much smaller minority than I realized.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Rare as a palindromedary?

 

I too started "cold", and D&D in the white box was Baffling, was it even in english? But I suspect most "Gamers" get into it by others. I saw a dude at school with a game book and accosted him, up till then I thought I was alone..... So even with out a cover sheet modern games are much more accesable....

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: New Gamers

 

I don't understand why you think that. There's a section in the rules already called “If you're new to Hero.” Do you find that insulting? If not, why would an “If you're new to roleplaying” section be offensive?

 

Why do you think they are the same thing, or even decent parallels? Hero is a specific product, role playing is something that even people who've never seen a die with more than 6 sides have their heads round and have since the mid 80s. I'm not trying to belittle the idea, I'm simply saying I doubt that, if you went out and picked 100 people at random on the street, ANY of them would answer the question "Can you tell me what the phrase 'role playing' means?" with blank incomprehension. Some might get the pacing all wrong, but even then SOMEONE would be dressed up as Wonder Woman. You'd be lucky to get anyone who could tell you what 'Hero the RPG' was.

 

The best introduction to a new experience is actually doing it, not talking about it. Especially when it comes to dressing up as Wonder Woman.

 

 

 

Uh, no, it only assumes that some people might be unfamiliar with roleplaying games.

 

If I walked out my door and started asking random people on the street, do you honestly think I'd run into lots of people who know? Frankly, I'd expect to go through ten or twenty people before finding even one who knew (prior to my explanation) what I was talking about. In fact, I'd probably a few people who think I'm talking about computers or sexual kinks or psychotherapy (or in need of psychotherapy) before finding someone who understood.

 

See above. I honestly believe that you might struggle to find anyone who can't give you some sort of definition of what 'role playing game' means*. It might differ from your own definition, perhaps by a wide margin, but then I believe that actively constricting a definition of something so fluid and personal could be seriously damaging to the game: rpgs and Hero in particular is all about options and differences of opinion - that is simply healthy, and good for the game and those playing it. Definition only matters where there is something we have to agree on to get along. I've not seen a rpg intro that says 'Some people love to powergame and that is OK', because powergaming is generally seen as evil. It isn't though. I've played with and as a powergamer and enjoyed the experience, and I've played with and as a roleplayer and enjoyed the experience. A section on 'How to deal with people who do not share your views as to how it ought to be done' might be useful to some, but you'd have to be so careful writing it that it wouldn't even taste of vanilla.

 

If you can not include everyone in the introduction and, believe me you can not because there simply is not enough ink in the world, you are better off leaving it out.

 

 

*Apart from that guy over there who, frankly, looks a bit weird to me. Weirdo's don't get role playing, which is a major turnaround from the '70s.

[Mister E]

Re: New Gamers

 

As in http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Foxtrot%20Oscar

 

Oh my stars...!

[bigbywolfe]

Re: New Gamers

 

Why do you think they are the same thing, or even decent parallels? Hero is a specific product, role playing is something that even people who've never seen a die with more than 6 sides have their heads round and have since the mid 80s. I'm not trying to belittle the idea, I'm simply saying I doubt that, if you went out and picked 100 people at random on the street, ANY of them would answer the question "Can you tell me what the phrase 'role playing' means?" with blank incomprehension. Some might get the pacing all wrong, but even then SOMEONE would be dressed up as Wonder Woman. You'd be lucky to get anyone who could tell you what 'Hero the RPG' was.

 

The best introduction to a new experience is actually doing it, not talking about it. Especially when it comes to dressing up as Wonder Woman.

 

 

 

 

 

See above. I honestly believe that you might struggle to find anyone who can't give you some sort of definition of what 'role playing game' means*. It might differ from your own definition, perhaps by a wide margin, but then I believe that actively constricting a definition of something so fluid and personal could be seriously damaging to the game: rpgs and Hero in particular is all about options and differences of opinion - that is simply healthy, and good for the game and those playing it. Definition only matters where there is something we have to agree on to get along. I've not seen a rpg intro that says 'Some people love to powergame and that is OK', because powergaming is generally seen as evil. It isn't though. I've played with and as a powergamer and enjoyed the experience, and I've played with and as a roleplayer and enjoyed the experience. A section on 'How to deal with people who do not share your views as to how it ought to be done' might be useful to some, but you'd have to be so careful writing it that it wouldn't even taste of vanilla.

 

If you can not include everyone in the introduction and, believe me you can not because there simply is not enough ink in the world, you are better off leaving it out.

 

 

*Apart from that guy over there who, frankly, looks a bit weird to me. Weirdo's don't get role playing, which is a major turnaround from the '70s.

As someone pointed out above, many people would think psychology if you just asked what "role playing" is. Another healthy section of the population would probably take the sexual connotation the phrase has picked up. Hell, a large newspaper (recently) referred to D&D as a boardgame and you think 99 out of 100 people will know what a role playing game is? Please. Your assertions have no factual backing whatsoever. You are making assumptions based on your experience, which is by no means the standard nation wide.

[Rapier]

Re: New Gamers

 

I taught myself how to play D&D way back in 1977 or so.

 

[clipped for brevity and general laziness -- r]

 

My best friend invited me over to play DnD. I had kind of heard of DnD but never played and didn't really have an idea what it was. He was taught by a family friend who was off to college. He was my introduction and we worked out a lot of the rules as we went along. For a long time, I had an assassin character (from the DnD Expert Box) that, unknowingly, carried around a 10' blowgun...IN HIS BACKPACK. I had always thought it was some kind of 2' long tube...nope, 10'.

[Greywind]

Re: New Gamers

 

Or the lazy group that just assumed that a lucern hammer was a type of hammer and a cleric could use it...

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: New Gamers

 

As someone pointed out above' date=' many people would think psychology if you just asked what "role playing" is. Another healthy section of the population would probably take the sexual connotation the phrase has picked up. [/quote']

Context makes all the difference. If you asked what a, "role-playing game" was, they'd probably ask if you meant D&D or WoW, or perhaps another video game.

Hell, a large newspaper (recently) referred to D&D as a boardgame and you think 99 out of 100 people will know what a role playing game is?

Media gets something wrong! Film at 11! They'd probably also refer to an AKM as an AK-47 and call it a machine gun as well.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: New Gamers

 

Media gets something wrong! Film at 11! They'd probably also refer to an AKM as an AK-47 and call it a machine gun as well.

Of course it was "the media" not a person who wrote the article. There's at least one person who doesn't know and they are (presumably) fairly educated and knowledgable if writing for a paper. (Note I did say presumably) Making fun of the fact that American media is crappy at fact checking doesn't negate the point. Also, MrReasonable, who I was responding to, specifically said "what the phrase 'role playing' means".

I'm not trying to belittle the idea' date=' I'm simply saying I doubt that, if you went out and picked 100 people at random on the street, ANY of them would answer the question "Can you tell me what the phrase 'role playing' means?" [/quote']

 

EDIT: For the record, I'm totally on the "we don't need a 'what is an RPG' page" side of this discussion. I'm simply responding to faulty assumptions and the attitude they are being presented in as fact.

[Lucius]

Re: New Gamers

 

I don't know. Tell me' date=' precisely, what you mean by "addressed to people who don't already know what a role playing game is." That seems like a pretty broad statement, open to any number of interpretations.[/quote']

 

You're the one who seems to be maintaining that there IS something in there addressed to people who don't already know what a role playing game is.

 

I'm the one maintaining that there's not.

 

If you say there is, can you tell me where to find it? If you can't point to it, why are you reluctant to acknowledge that it's not there?

 

I suspect that the only answer that would satisfy you is, "There needs to be a few pages addressed to defining what a RPG is." You're fishing for the answer you want. Nothing else will satisfy you; nothing I say, or could show you, can possibly change your mind.

 

First of all, I'm not saying “a few pages.” Maybe one page, maybe even a paragraph. In fact, part of my argument is that it would take very little space.

 

It might be possible to change my mind about the need for such.

 

For example, I have already acknowledged that Bigbywolf's perspective is very valuable, because he is an example of someone who DID come to role playing recently, taught himself, and started with a recent edition of Hero, and he says:

 

For the record, I'm totally on the "we don't need a 'what is an RPG' page" side of this discussion. I'm simply responding to faulty assumptions and the attitude they are being presented in as fact.

 

So even the person who is the example of exactly what I'm talking about, doesn't think what I'm suggesting is necessary – and it obviously wasn't necessary for him. THAT kind of thing will at least make me think about reconsidering my position on the issue of what should or shouldn't be in the book.

 

But if you want to change my mind about whether or not it's already there, you need to give me a page number. If I told you something was in the rules that you don't remember seeing, would you take my word for it without a citation? If not, why do you think I should take yours?

 

You want me to validate your opinion, to confirm that it's a "fact". But, sorry, I can't.

 

What I want is for you acknowledge that I have in fact read the rules and have some idea what is and isn't in them.

 

I have much less issue with something like this from Mr. Hiemforth:

 

And how many of those who don't do you think would be likely to walk into a game store' date=' pick up an RPG book, and try to teach it to themselves? Not many, I'd have to think. The (very small) number of people who might attempt to do that at this point in time, I would have to think, would almost certainly be among those who [b']do[/b] know what a role-playing game is, even if they haven't played one.

 

Yeah, it would be nice if he agreed with me, but he doesn't, and he gives a good reason for disagreeing. At my most contentious, I wouldn't try to claim that a very large percentage of people who take up role playing in 2010 are going to be teaching themselves as opposed to joining an ongoing group. Is the number so small that we can regard it as virtually zero? Some people think so. I can't deny they have a point. But if we have a counterexample even in such a small group as the people participating in this thread, I can't help thinking there are a lot more like Bigbywolf out there who aren't in this small sample.

 

Or then there's this:

 

... role playing is something that even people who've never seen a die with more than 6 sides have their heads round and have since the mid 80s. I'm not trying to belittle the idea' date=' I'm simply saying I doubt that, if you went out and picked 100 people at random on the street, ANY of them would answer the question "Can you tell me what the phrase 'role playing' means?" with blank incomprehension....[/quote']

 

I very strongly disagree with this, but the only way to really address it would be to go stand on a street corner and accost 100 or more people at random and ask a couple of questions and record their answers. I'm not at this point prepared to make the effort, although I suspect that if Mr. Reasonable did, he would find it an enlightening experience. Certainly if he went to Monument Circle in downtown Indianapolis and asked “what is a role playing game?” I'm sure he'd get more blank incomprehension than he expects. Of course, as Mr. Hiemforth points out, the general public isn't really the market for role playing games anyway, so...

 

 

But you and I are disagreeing about what seems to me a more easily checked matter.

 

When I work past being upset at some of your comments (such as “talk is cheap” - I am sure HeroTina has some idea what I've spent on Hero products over the years, although even her figures won't include what I've spent at gaming stores or other third party vendors. Has she shared that information with you?) I find myself genuinely curious about something.

 

If you're disagreeing with me when I say that there is nothing in the Hero core books addressed to people who don't already know what a role playing game is, it follows that you think there is something there that IS addressed to people who don't already know what a role playing game is. I would like to know what it is you are seeing that I'm missing. Then I'd at least have a better idea where you're coming from.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

There's nothing in the rulebook that says a palindromedary can't play.

[Mr Reasonable]

Re: New Gamers

 

As someone pointed out above' date=' many people would think psychology if you just asked what "role playing" is. Another healthy section of the population would probably take the sexual connotation the phrase has picked up. Hell, a large newspaper (recently) referred to D&D as a boardgame and you think 99 out of 100 people will know what a role playing game is? Please. Your assertions have no factual backing whatsoever. You are making assumptions based on your experience, which is by no means the standard nation wide.[/quote']

 

I think that most people would get, whatever context they place it in, the idea that a role playing game is where you take on a role and act out, whether that be a psych or sexual context, or a plain old Friday night beer and pizza round the table dicefest. Actually you'd probably get a significant number of people who will assume that you mean computer/console games too. Anyway, uou can even get rpgs that are boardgames. I role play when we play Talisman and, for that matter, poker. The problem with any introduction, especially if it tries to define what a rpg is NOT, is it is going to put off as many people as it attracts.

 

No one (and I mean 'Joe Public', but more particularly that section picking up a rpg and reading the introduction) is going to struggle with the idea of a role playing game - and yes that is my opinion for whatever that may be worth. If everyone has a different idea of EXACTLY what that means, all to the good.

 

Putting THIS rpg in context is different: describing how Hero works and some of the ways you might use it is worth mentioning - but only very briefly. Whilst I've bought books based on the blurb on the back (both role playing books and other types) I've never ever read the introduction to confirm my choice before purchase, and, to be honest, even after purchase I usually ignore introductions because they are pitched at everyone, and I'm going to get what I need from reading the book, not having someone guess what I want to be told.

 

So, that's my feeling on it, but I doubt it will make a lot of difference in the scheme of things.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: New Gamers

 

Just to make sure I'm not mis-representing myself Lucius, I had played an RPG before I picked up HERO, just not a lot. However, no one mentored me with HERO specifically (unless you count me asking a lot of questions on the boards here). My experience prior to picking up Hero was mostly a mediocre Marvel Universe RPG. I read HERO cover to cover, ran a one-on-one game that, due to time constraints only lasted two sessions, then joined some games on HeroCentral. I'm now in a gaming group that uses multiple systems (in fact, our usual GM does RPG reviews), and I am slowly working on introducing HERO to them, though I'm not confident enough in my GMing abilities to take over for the whole group as of yet.