So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

[Pattern Ghost]

I've been mulling over the stat costs in 6E, but not being familiar with other rules (Powers, Talents, etc) changes, I don't really know how this plays out.

 

It seems that with the new way characteristics are handled, a higher percentage of the points would be spent on stats to get an equivalent character in 6E, even after accounting for the extra 50 points suggested for a standard super.

 

Let's say:

 

60 STR

18 DEX

30 CON

15 BDY

13 INT

11 EGO

20 PRE

10 COM

30 PD

20 ED

04 SPD

18 REC

60 END

60 STN

 

6 OCV/DCV

4 MOCV/MDCV

 

Under 5th Edition: 183 pts out of 350 or 52.3%

 

Under 6th Edition: 249 pts out of 400 or 62.25%

 

So, a slight difference in points. Obviously, the higher your derived stats would have been under the old system, the bigger the disparity will be if you try to buy them up under the new system.

 

What I'm wondering is how this balances out against other changes, such as costs of defensive powers, changes to frameworks, etc.

 

Do you all feel that bricks are pretty well balanced out point-wise? Not so much vs. other archetypes, but rather that there are enough points left after buying sufficiently bricky-feeling stats to buy the other bits and pieces a good brick should have? (Defenses, combat ability, an exotic defense or two, "brick trick" powers, and some skills.)

[RexMundi]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

I'm a huge Brick player......in short, it's a wash, because 6e scales better. On the build side though, it's a lot easier to build bricks, with cooler tricks, so in effect, very well balanced, especially if you like detailed Brick characters.

 

~Rex

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

Ah, cool. Thanks.

 

Also, the way resistant defenses work, would you just buy most of them as a power, rather than buying up PD/ED then making some of it resistant? That could have an effect on builds.

 

I kind of like the idea that now I don't have to have a character that's great at DEX skills to also have one with a good CV. Splitting DEX off from CV makes a lot of sense.

[RexMundi]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

As for defenses, I'd say, depends on the brick. Since the scale is more balanced now in 6e, Defenses as powers work better for classic Marvel Ben Grimm bricks, as Stats, for guys like Continuity Comics Megalith, etc .......I'm one of those guys that likes to buy a mix, and then tack on things like Con rolls or power rolls or Be Aware, so you can get that comic effect of Sometimes, it just bounces off, other times, it knocks him through the building.......

 

~Rex

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

In my (admittedly limited) experience, converting a 5th Ed brick to 6th will be more expensive than, say, converting an energy blaster. A few months back, I converted a supervillain team: two bricks, a shrinker, a gadgeteer/blaster, two martial artists, a mentalist, and an animal controller. Keeping in mind that 400 is the new 350, here's how they turned out:

 

• 375-point (5E) brick #1 came to 444 points (6E)
  
• 350-point (5E) brick #2 came to 422 points (6E)
  
• 350-point (5E) shrinker came to 380 points (6E)
  
• 350-point (5E) gadgeteer/blaster came to 404 points (6E)
  
• 350-point (5E) martial artist #1 came to 400 points (6E)
  
• 350-point (5E) martial artist #2 came to 378 points (6E)
  
• 350-point (5E) mentalist came to 406 points (6E)
  
• 350-point (5E) animal controller came to 388 points (6E)
  

 

For a change of pace, I created the animal controller's summoned Rat Pack in 6th and then converted to 5th.

• 350-point (6E) rat pack came to 300 points (5E)
  

 

During conversion, I tried to keep things as close to the same as I could, though some powers changed (like using Damage Negation rather than Damage Reduction because it fit better). I also didn't spend points on OECV if the character didn't have mental powers, so it wasn't a case of wasted points.

 

I do agree that 6E allows some good variety in the build. But I have no doubt that bricks got a little more "oomph" for free prior to 6E, thanks to all the extras that high STR and CON provided before.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

Under 5th Edition: 183 pts out of 350 or 52.3%

 

Under 6th Edition: 249 pts out of 400 or 62.25%

 

I didn't check your math -- does the 249 points (6E) include the 10 points to buy the leaping from base 4m up to 24m (to match the 5E's 12" base leaping for 60 STR)?

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

I didn't check your math -- does the 249 points (6E) include the 10 points to buy the leaping from base 4m up to 24m (to match the 5E's 12" base leaping for 60 STR)?

 

AH! I knew I was forgetting something. No, it doesn't. I forgot to do that buy up.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

A question about Damage Negation...

 

When do you use it? What does it best simulate? How does the math work out vs. older defenses? What it does is pretty obvious, but I don't grok it.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

Oh, and rep for responding, except I have to spread some before I can give more to Bolo. But thanks anyway. =)

[dmjalund]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

I see the main difference between Damage Negation and the other defense powers is that Damage Negation also reduces knockback.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

A question about Damage Negation...

 

When do you use it? What does it best simulate? How does the math work out vs. older defenses? What it does is pretty obvious, but I don't grok it.

 

Well, you can use it to make the character able to effectively ignore most small arms fire. (Damage Negation -6 DCs Physical). That way, even a max roll on a 2d6 RKA (12 BODY, 36 STUN) bounces off harmlessly. To me, it means you don't have to give a character grossly high defenses to keep from getting taken down by one lucky shot or a handful of soldiers.

 

Edit: By "one lucky shot," I'm not referring to that 2d6 RKA, but rather to, say, a hero's 12d6 Blast or a comparable 4d6 RKA.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

Damage Negation seems to me like it would be very useful in games where heros have invuilnerability to attacks to some level, but hero vs hero combat draws blood. Unlike defenses, damage negation reduces BOD damage in proportion to STUN damage, instead of wiping it out.

[RexMundi]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

There's some other scale changes for example in 6e, that get rid of a lot of the need for a brick to buy staggering levels of resistant defenses as well. It's also a lot easier now, to figure out what you want to achieve as a ceiling, and then set up to "push" to get there, as opposed to already being there.....brings in more comic book feel.

 

~Rex

[Ice9]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

I would say the main effect of Damage Negation, compared to PD/ED, is a sharper cutoff - the opposite of Damage Reduction. For instance, against a 2d6 RKA Rifle:

Damage Negation 6 would completely stop it, and would always allow some BODY/STUN through from a 3d6 RKA.

Resistant Protection 20 would usually stop it, but sometimes allow some STUN through, and would also stop the BODY (and sometimes STUN) of a 3d6 RKA.

 

Now while comparing it just against standard attacks, it looks a bit overpriced, but keep in mind it also stops AP / Penetrating / NND attacks and knockback.

I've found that for most characters, its more effective to mix defenses than rely on DN alone, unless you're comfortable with taking BODY damage often.

[Squall]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

I'm a big Brick fan, and have run into the same sort of concerns about how expensive just the core traits are (without those good ol' derived statistics any more).

 

As far as Damage Negation, I'm using it on a character I'm putting together right now (a sort of American Eagle/Jack Flag/Warpath/Thunderbird/Outlaw type, a mix of Brick and Martial Artist), and I think it'll be a fun way to show the standard Brick-type resilience, but without also just casually shrugging of superhuman foes. I want the character to get battered around by stuff he doesn't dodge or block, I want blood drawn and him to LOOK and FEEL like he's in trouble, as sort of a second-rate guy, when it comes to defenses...and I think Damage Negation is the way to do that.

 

Crunching numbers and comparing him -- in a toe-to-toe brawl -- with some published Bricks, he's going to get smacked around and look pretty messed up, but still be on his feet and able to swing back. That's just about exactly where I want him. Survivability, but not immunity (if that makes sense).

[RexMundi]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

See I KNEW I wasn't the only person that knew who American Eagle and Jack Flagg were.....heh. Damage negation is a great power. Still, I really haven't run into any issues with the Brick costs myself, and I make bricks at every opportunity. Just little things like the damage multiplier for killing attacks being different now take care of the differences in point costs, and so does the different ways to layer your defenses now. The Figured Characteristics of Ye Olden days......not really missed by myself nor others I've been playing the game with.

 

~Rex

[Squall]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

See I KNEW I wasn't the only person that knew who American Eagle and Jack Flagg were.....heh.

I've always had a soft spot for the guys who are just "faster, stronger, tougher," with all three taken to superhuman levels but without quite being as strong and durable as a full on brick, and without all the speed tricks of a dedicated speedster. A...hmm...Martial Brickster?

 

I already had a character idea kicking around in my head, then recently got my paws on a Thunderbolts TPB with Jack and Eagle in it, the same day I read over some of the new X-Force stuff with Warpath...and my fate was sealed! Character concept was firmly locked into place, and all that was left was to crunch the numbers.

[dmjalund]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

I have an idea: Instead of PD/ED and Knockback Resistance for Growth and Large Size, How about Damage Negation?

[Beast]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

I like bricks

but hand killing attacks got real cheap for them

60 str and a 1pip pen knife in 5th ed is a 1/2d6 KA switchblade

60 str and a 1pip pen knife in 6th ed is a 4d6+1 KA great sword

the points you save could go to buying skill levels on throwing said pen knife

[RexMundi]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

I have an idea: Instead of PD/ED and Knockback Resistance for Growth and Large Size' date=' How about Damage Negation?[/quote']

 

Reduction would work a tad better, that would make it work a lot like Growth does in the Marvel Super Heroes RPG....Still, Negation would be a good thing to Link to X levels of Growth.

 

~Rex

[Chimera 12]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

I like bricks

but hand killing attacks got real cheap for them

60 str and a 1pip pen knife in 5th ed is a 1/2d6 KA switchblade

60 str and a 1pip pen knife in 6th ed is a 4d6+1 KA great sword

the points you save could go to buying skill levels on throwing said pen knife

 

Well, it does make a degree of sense. That brick already paid for that 60 STR and the associated hand-to-hand damage, after all, and from a certain point of view all that pen knife does is add another DC to the twelve he can already do 'naturally'.

 

Of course, it also converts all 13 DC to killing damage (because STR adds to the HKA and not vice versa). But as far as the rules are concerned, normal and killing damage have always been considered about equal when compared on a per-DC basis, so there's no particular reason to slap on an additional cost or restriction just for that.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

Well, it does make a degree of sense. That brick already paid for that 60 STR and the associated hand-to-hand damage, after all, and from a certain point of view all that pen knife does is add another DC to the twelve he can already do 'naturally'.

 

Of course, it also converts all 13 DC to killing damage (because STR adds to the HKA and not vice versa). But as far as the rules are concerned, normal and killing damage have always been considered about equal when compared on a per-DC basis, so there's no particular reason to slap on an additional cost or restriction just for that.

 

By that same logic, shouldn't an energy projector with a 12d6 Blast be able to buy a 1-pip RKA, thus turning that 12d6 Blast into a 4d6+1 RKA?

[RexMundi]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

KA damage multiplier starts lower now, and I believe the no more then double the DC, is still in the wording as a structure rule option.....have to wait till I get home though to check the books, as work demands much of my attention. Gotta love Deadlines....

 

~Rex

[Escafarc]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

KA damage multiplier starts lower now, and I believe the no more then double the DC, is still in the wording as a structure rule option.....have to wait till I get home though to check the books, as work demands much of my attention. Gotta love Deadlines....

 

~Rex

 

Yeah it's a GM Option but it strongly suggest that the GM uses it.

[Ice9]

Re: So, are Bricks more expensive in 6th Edition?

 

By that same logic, shouldn't an energy projector with a 12d6 Blast be able to buy a 1-pip RKA, thus turning that 12d6 Blast into a 4d6+1 RKA?

He can, it's called a Multipower. It would, admittedly, cost 1 more point (6 instead of 5), but it's something most energy projectors do already. The HKA "conversion" just seems like a variant on that, since actually putting your Strength in a Multipower has issues.

 

And while it may seem ridiculous when you phrase it as "a pen knife dealing 4d6+1K", just change the phrasing to "spiked gauntlets" and it flips things around. I always thought it was ridiculous that a brick who punches for ~12 BODY / 42 STUN could put on a pair of spiked gauntlets and suddenly be hitting for ~2 BODY / 5 STUN. I'm glad that situation no longer exists.