What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

[randian]

Getting 20% less END for your hard-earned character points and measly 1/2 limitation on your REC (doesn't recover STUN) seems mechanically weak to me. Then, consider this gem: "GMs should be wary of characters who buy large Endurance Reserves and then apply the Increased Endurance Cost Limitation to the powers that use the Reserve." Oh really? What good powergamer is going to buy a large Reserve at 1 END/4 points when he can pump up the character's personal END for 1/5? Buying a power should never make a character worse off than not, yet in the name of stamping out abuse ER does exactly that.

[Nevenall]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

It's was a needed rebalance actually.

END Reserves will recover when the character cannot, such as when the character can't breath, or is in extreme temperatures, or even just hit with a Drain REC.

Also, when a character's Stun hits 0, his personal END also becomes 0. END Reserves do not.

[RexMundi]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Yeah I had to point out the same thing to one of my players. Now they get it.

 

~Rex

[Nevenall]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Sounds like this facet of END Reserve should be more clearly pointed out in 6E1.

[RexMundi]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Yeah it's a bit fuzzy. I call it one of the things that fell through the cracks, because to a lot of folks it's obvious yet to an equal amount, it's not at all. Either way it's easily explained in a sentance, and then all is good.

 

~Rex

[Nevenall]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Just checked my 6E1. The third paragraph of the Endurance Reserve description, first paragraph of the Using END Reserve section, makes the advantages pretty clear.

[incrdbil]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I hadn't noticed this huge hit to the cost of END reserve from 5E. The advantages seem pretty minimal. Hmm, this might be my first 6E rules reversal back to 5E. They may as well have removed the power for all good it is now.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

What is the difference between normal END and reserve END? Reserve END is more persistent. Having it cost more as a consequence seems reasonable.

 

I think this change does mitigate the need to monitor END reserves and Extra END limitations. I also think the fact this was an issue in 5e indicates a potentially inappropriate price, and this fixes it.

 

Will END reserve be used less? Maybe. Was it overused previously because it was underpriced? Also maybe. I think, for a character for whom it is conceptually appropriate, they are not penalized for going the END Reserve route. Anyone have some actual play experience to share?

[Nevenall]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I hadn't noticed this huge hit to the cost of END reserve from 5E. The advantages seem pretty minimal. Hmm' date=' this might be my first 6E rules reversal back to 5E. They may as well have removed the power for all good it is now.[/quote']

 

Lets hear you say that next time you wake up with 0 END

[randian]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Lets hear you say that next time you wake up with 0 END

But you don't wake up at 0 End, you wake up at End = Stun, which by the way would be a lot higher if those points you spent on Reserve Rec were instead spent on personal Rec. And don't forget, you have to buy Reserve Rec starting from 0, which rather puts to waste what you've already spent on personal Rec. Furthermore, if that 10 or 15 points you spent on Reserve Rec were spent on personal Rec, you might not have been knocked out to begin with, because unlike Reserve Rec it increases your Stun too.

[prestidigitator]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I think 6E's cost is a LOT better than 5E's. In 5E there was little reason not to sell off your personal End and buy up a huge End Reserve to feed everything off of. Now I'd still like to see End Reserve by default cost and act exactly like a second set of End+Rec stats and allow for options like Persistent and such through Advantages so you can build what it currently amounts to, but it's much better than it was in 5E at least.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

We have one Power Suit character with an END Reserve, not having his END drop to 0 upon Stun 0 has been a big boon. We just had a fight where our Blasters tactics were reduced drastically after a couple lucky hits knocked him out and he had to wait several phases to get enough END to do more than move and defend. The cost for Persistent END on the Reserve seems to be fair in practice in 6E.

[casualplayer]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

We have one Power Suit character with an END Reserve' date=' not having his END drop to 0 upon Stun 0 has been a big boon. We just had a fight where our Blasters tactics were reduced drastically after a couple lucky hits knocked him out and he had to wait several phases to get enough END to do more than move and defend. The cost for Persistent END on the Reserve seems to be fair in practice in 6E.[/quote']

 

And that is a feature, not a flaw. People don't get up off the canvas immediately fighting at peak form.

 

Anyone else ever make the Unstoppable Robot, where you sell back REC and then purchase a Persistant "Healing" Aid to BODY/END/STUN? Made base defenses that were a Drain REC? Invisible, AE and Personal Immunity for the Minions of course. The way to get players to appreciate REC is to mess with it.

[incrdbil]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I rarely have characters coming back to consciousness..and when they do, the one or two recoveries usually gives them enough end to get by.

 

Hmm, ok, time to get my munchkin hat on. Charges of normal END? Absorbtion to a END reserve? Some form of Aid...hmm, possibilities to mimic a self generating power source or stored reserves that way.

[incrdbil]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

But you don't wake up at 0 End' date=' you wake up at End = Stun, which by the way would be a lot higher if those points you spent on Reserve Rec were instead spent on personal Rec. And don't forget, [i']you have to buy Reserve Rec starting from 0[/i], which rather puts to waste what you've already spent on personal Rec. Furthermore, if that 10 or 15 points you spent on Reserve Rec were spent on personal Rec, you might not have been knocked out to begin with, because unlike Reserve Rec it increases your Stun too.

 

Yeah--buying an end reserve now isn't a great option. Simply buying normal end and upping recovery with whatever limits you had on the old power reserve seems to be a better deal.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

End Reserves (formerly known as END Batteries) have always been on the edge of munchkinny stuff. They are a good way of producing certain effects but the pricing becomes difficult - if the prices are more expensive than limited END and REC then why would you buy the power and if they are cheaper then the temptation of replacing END and REC for the standard characteristics is strong...

 

I think that we need to think what we want to use the power for. Many people use them to limit the availability of a power - small battery that charges to get back to the level needed to discharge but then you are paying points to limit a power. :-)

 

I think that if the idea is to have a seperate pool then you can use normal END and REC limited to reflect that, if you want the END 'protected' then you need an advantage for that.

 

Ever since I was weaned off using END Battery to maximise my characters END profile and combat performance, I have rarely ever used this power...

 

Doc

[Palmate]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I think, like many items in the toolkit, that it isn't for everyone. It certianly has its uses, maybe not a silver bullet - but few things are in the HERO system - more like another type of ammo.

 

P

[bigbywolfe]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I find I use END Reserves frequently with tech based characters.

[Escafarc]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Don't forget that a END Reserve could have a different SF/X then normal END which could effect how a Adjustment power would work.

[casualplayer]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I like it for powers where I can exhaust the reserves of the power, with more flexibility and gradation than Charges gives me, without having to have completely exhausted the character. Credit where credit is due, I got the idea from the writeup of Cyclops in Different Worlds from many, many moons ago.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I like it for powers where I can exhaust the reserves of the power' date=' with more flexibility and gradation than Charges gives me, without having to have completely exhausted the character. Credit where credit is due, I got the idea from the writeup of Cyclops in [i']Different Worlds[/i] from many, many moons ago.

 

But charges are a limitation until you get to a certain point - END Reserves are a cost right from the very first point...

 

Dont have an answer, just a frustration. :-)

[pinecone]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I rarely have characters coming back to consciousness..and when they do, the one or two recoveries usually gives them enough end to get by.

 

Hmm, ok, time to get my munchkin hat on. Charges of normal END? Absorbtion to a END reserve? Some form of Aid...hmm, possibilities to mimic a self generating power source or stored reserves that way.

 

Whats wrong with Absorb> REC?...

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

I think 6E's cost is a LOT better than 5E's. In 5E there was little reason not to sell off your personal End and buy up a huge End Reserve to feed everything off of. Now I'd still like to see End Reserve by default cost and act exactly like a second set of End+Rec stats and allow for options like Persistent and such through Advantages so you can build what it currently amounts to' date=' but it's much better than it was in 5E at least.[/quote']

 

How do you Powergammers come up with these things? : ) For the life of me, I could have never considered such a build. (So is there an on-line course I can take?)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Thinking on the costing issue, it seems reasonable that the END cost be greater than ordinary END because it does not disappear if the character is KO'd. Costing the battery at 1 CP/4 END is effectively a +1/4 advantage, and this seems reasonable.

 

The REC seems the trickier devil to cost. It is also Persistent (it works if you're KO'd, even at GM option), so there's a +1/4 advantage. However, it cannot be used more than once per turn, which is limiting (but not as limiting as powers which could normally be used once per turn without the drawbacks of taking a recovery in combat). That's probably -1/4, maybe -1/2. It cannot be used to recover STUN (that's got to be -1 at least) or to recover BOD (-1/4 at most), so we probably have a total limitation in the -1 1/2 to -2 range. Normal REC costs 1:1, and with a +1/4 advantage and -1 1/2 limitation, we getv a cost of 1 CP per 2 REC. That seems pretty close. If we make the limitation -2, the REC should cost 0.41667 CP per REC, so round that to 5 REC per 2 points - not much of a change.

 

Given this, I think the 6e costs are pretty well in the ballpark. Of course, that's theory. We need to see how it works in practice.

[incrdbil]

Re: What do you think of Endurance Reserve in 6E?

 

Thing is, a player can simply apply some advantages and limitations to buying normal end and recovery, and get the advantage of using their base end and recovery, and perhaps do it cheaper. So, given you can duplicates END reserves effects, and do it better for the same cost, or even less..why use it?