No more Figured Characteristics?!

[Matt Holck]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

DCV Man, DCV Man

DCV Man hates OCV Man

they get in a fight, OCV wins

OCV Man

 

no doubt

combat maneuvers penalize DCV more often than OCV such as sweep and haymaker without penalty to OCV or being grabbed

best off start with a low DCV that will be hit anyway so the penalties have little effect

 

*Grabs a selective fire weapon*

[randian]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

I had hoped to see this kind of re-thinking in the initial sample characters, and play through the 6e published character builds, but no such luck so far.

The 3-DCV brick can't work in games with strict limits. You will be the inevitable target of maximum-velocity move-throughs (the OCV penalty doesn't matter much when the target has 3 DCV) and every level your opponent has will be on damage. It's even worse now that any kind of damage can be boosted with levels, not just regular physical and energy. You have to have well above average defenses to survive.

Generally, they had lower OCV because maneuvers enhanced DCV, but the requisite high DEX required a high base OCV anyway. I see a lot use their levels to avoid being hit, rather than to enhance their own chances of hitting - and why not when you have more phases and lower defenses.

If you're going to hit anyway, why not put everything on DCV?

I don't understand your concern about CV "compression". A 3 OCV hits a 4 DCV just as often as a 13 OCV hits a 14 DCV - 50%.

The cost of having a large CV gap went up. I see it likely players will accept smaller gaps and greater homogenization of CV rather than pay up.

I rarely see levels used for damage either, but if the 3 DCV Brick has a high enough OCV to hit reliably, why not use those levels to hit harder, rather than to move from a 15- to hit to a 21- to hit? Putting them in DCV won't help him much if he gets hit on 7- instead of 1-.

Brick vs Brick combats are going to be brutal.

I think levels are priced a bit high (10 points for +1 OCV or +1 DCV when you can have +1 OCV and +1 DCV for the same cost is out there), but a Multipower of +4 OCV and +4 DCV, all Flex slots, would cost 28 points (7 per level) without factoring in the ability to add damage or mental CV's.

That's a great idea, especially for a HtH character. Add a STR or HA slot to simulate "levels on damage" and you're good to go. A DMCV slot would be nice too. I'm not sure how many abilities you can add before the cost of the Flex slots starts killing you, but it makes for great combat flexibility.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

The 3-DCV brick can't work in games with strict limits. You will be the inevitable target of maximum-velocity move-throughs (the OCV penalty doesn't matter much when the target has 3 DCV) and every level your opponent has will be on damage. It's even worse now that any kind of damage can be boosted with levels' date=' not just regular physical and energy. You have to have well above average defenses to survive.[/quote']

 

Games with strict limits tend to regulate CV pretty heavily as well. The whole game has to be considered in setting limits. If yoou set a cap on defenses, and anyone from a 3 to a 13 DCV can have the same defenses, everyone will buy the maximum defenses and a 13 DCV. Why wouldn't they? If lower DCV characters can have higher defenses, they become more viable.

 

As to Move Throughs, the prior editions' low DCV classic Brick was the Growth character. That max velocity move through doesn't seem as shrewd a maneuver when the high STR target has Braced to reduce knockback, and the move through results in both attacker and defender taking full damage, with the defender also being Stunned due to his lower CON and defenses. Also, if low DCV is that ounitive, the -3 suffered from the move through will also not be welcome.

 

If you're going to hit anyway' date=' why not put everything on DCV?[/quote']

 

Because putting it on damage may let you stun the target, especially if he has superior defenses as justified by his low DCV. Classic martial artists and speedsters are hard to hit and easy to hurt. Why can't we simulate the classic Brick who is easy to hit but hard to hurt.

 

The cost of having a large CV gap went up. I see it likely players will accept smaller gaps and greater homogenization of CV rather than pay up.

 

The cost of high CV went up. If everyone buys a 6 OCV and a 6 DCV, they will be homogonized. If both range from 4 to 7, we still have a considerable gap. A few points of CV have a considerable impact on the game. With a 5 point spread between DCV and OCV (say 7 OCV, 12 DCV), the attacker's chance of hitting drops to under 10%. I wonder who will win the combat when one attacker only hits with one shot in ten - especially if the easier target isn't permitted to have higher defenses to compensate for being easier to hit.

 

Brick vs Brick combats are going to be brutal.

 

Again, maybe those Bricks should have the defenses to take some hits from equally powered opponents hitting full force. Hulk vs Thing slugfests don't end because one of them finally gets in a hit - neither of them tends to miss. And they tend to be hit by thugs, soldiers, etc. and shrug off the attacks where other characters would be KO'd or killed. That's missing from the game at present.

 

As well, with a greater spread in defenses, characters would find more use choosing to use levels for damage, making that versatility more valuable.

 

That's a great idea' date=' especially for a HtH character. Add a STR or HA slot to simulate "levels on damage" and you're good to go. A DMCV slot would be nice too. I'm not sure how many abilities you can add before the cost of the Flex slots starts killing you, but it makes for great combat flexibility.[/quote']

 

OK, solet's assume we have a 20 point pool with +4 OCV, +4 DCV and +4d6 HTH (doubling what we could have with standard skill levels). That costs 20 for the pool + 4 per slot = 32 points/4 = 8 points per level. Isn't that the current cost of an HTH skill level? We can enhance damage by a greater amount, but we don't get to bounce attacks or whatever other little effects we give skill levels. I'd say the extra damage is a bit better than those other ancillary effects, but that suggests the CSL should cost a little bit less than 8 points, not a lot less. Drop it to 7 and the "adding damage" slot, plus the ancillary effects, are free.

 

Let's explore this further. The OCV and DCV are limited to "only in HTH" (call that -1/2), but there is no limit placed on the damage classes, so the pool cost is not reduced. Let's bump up to 6 levels to change the rounding. 30 point pool, 2 slots that cost 4 (6/1.5) and 1 costing 6 totals 44 points. Divide by 6 and that's a little over 7 points per level.

 

"All combat" adds mental CV slots as well, further muddying the math, especially as most characters don't need both OCV and MOCV.

[randian]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

Games with strict limits tend to regulate CV pretty heavily as well. The whole game has to be considered in setting limits. If you set a cap on defenses, and anyone from a 3 to a 13 DCV can have the same defenses, everyone will buy the maximum defenses and a 13 DCV.

You'd be surprised at the number of GMs I've seen make that mistake.

As to Move Throughs, the prior editions' low DCV classic Brick was the Growth character. That max velocity move through doesn't seem as shrewd a maneuver when the high STR target has Braced to reduce knockback, and the move through results in both attacker and defender taking full damage, with the defender also being Stunned due to his lower CON and defenses. Also, if low DCV is that ounitive, the -3 suffered from the move through will also not be welcome.

I usually didn't see the speedsters do full-velocity move-throughs, since as you say they couldn't take it. It was the bricks, who didn't have enough OCV to hit at full velocity (superleap usually) against a normal target. A 30" leap is -6 OCV and +10d6. Enough to brake the brace but not enough to reliably hit a 6 or 7 DCV target. Even a 4 DCV target is ~50/50 (assuming 9 or 10 OCV). Make them 2 or even 0 DCV because they've started at 3 changes the game. Still, the game is not static and the defender will adjust to the change in conditions just as much as the attacker.

Because putting it on damage may let you stun the target, especially if he has superior defenses as justified by his low DCV. Classic martial artists and speedsters are hard to hit and easy to hurt. Why can't we simulate the classic Brick who is easy to hit but hard to hurt.

Ok. Works for me.

[tracer]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

Then again ... I DID make this character back in the day:

 

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/rogermw/champions/OECV_woman.html

[AlHazred]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

Then again ... I DID make this character back in the day:

 

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/rogermw/champions/OECV_woman.html

My favorite such is still "The Thing From Where Things Come From".

[randian]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

Then again ... I DID make this character back in the day:

 

http://members.dslextreme.com/users/rogermw/champions/OECV_woman.html

Is this the whole character? With no powers that OECV isn't so impressive.

 

27 OECV seems wasteful. 15 OECV would probably have been sufficient to hit on a 17-.

[Vondy]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

 

I doubt it. If you thought combat levels were overpriced in 4/5e, that goes double for 6e. With the compression of CV generally in 6e, combined with the extra cost of paying for formerly figured characteristics, spending 10 points on an all-combat level vs 5 points for 1 CV makes for an easy decision in favor of straight CV. The damage feature of CSLs is rarely used in my experience, and lower overall CV makes each point of it more precious and not to be wasted on damage.

 

I'm using CSLs less. Instead, I buy the base CV and martial maneuvers. A character may have talent based CSLs, but I'm buying them much less frequently now.

[Vondy]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

Different strokes for different folks. In our games the damage feature is used constantly. Good to have the versatility in any event.

 

Culturally, my group favors martial arts over combat levels. One reason is that its easier anticipate, regulate combat values that way. If you buy extra CSLs so you can do damage its hard to know whether the character will be at a respectable CV/Damage ratio, or will suddenly drop the damage and spike their CVs well beyond established campaign norms. Its not a huge problem, and it does model the "blademaster" concept pretty well, but for some reason I find combat maneuvers are easier to manage-guestimate than bulk combat level purchases.

[pinecone]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

wouldn't it still be 10 pts for CV? Since you'd have to buy both to get the same advantage as the 10pt level.

 

CV is persistant, levels are not, plus +1 all Combat 10 points add to Either....+1 OCV, DCV Both, all the time.....

[pinecone]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

I figure if I get around to building a Brick in 6Th I'm looking at Dex 11(2 points) DCV 4 (5 points?) and OCV 8 or so (25 points?) Str in the 45 to 50 range, and some Martial arts... defences in the 25 to 30 range....

[JmOz]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

In my current group we had a brick with very low DCV (About 4 I think) and a defence of 45 (Everyone else has a DCV around 8 and around 20 defences). he was not that unbalancing...

[Ice9]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

If you're doing a lot of DCV-halving manuevers like Multiple Attack, it can make sense to drop your DCV. Certainly, a 12 DCV speedster suffers from the halving a lot more than a 2 DCV brick does.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

Culturally' date=' my group favors martial arts over combat levels. One reason is that its easier anticipate, regulate combat values that way. If you buy extra CSLs so you can do damage its hard to know whether the character will be at a respectable CV/Damage ratio, or will suddenly drop the damage and spike their CVs well beyond established campaign norms. Its not a huge problem, and it does model the "blademaster" concept pretty well, but for some reason I find combat maneuvers are easier to manage-guestimate than bulk combat level purchases.[/quote']

 

 

Culturally so to speak. my group has as its ideal for a master martial arts character character both but even non martial arts characters us skill levels aplenty to represent being experienced or veteran fighters. Traditionally we've started with a logical DEX (5th edition talk here) for the character then added skill levels till it matched where the character should logically be by campaign guidelines. Original DEX didn't tend to move much but skills levels were added as the character became more experienced

[Enforcer84]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

I think it will be a couple of years till we all change the way we build characters. It's a cultural thing at the moment. Everyone is still clinging to their old notions of how to build characters' date=' and some are experimenting, but nothing really solid has come of it. We also have a ton of conversions of 5e material and that will enforce the 5e status quo. Once we start to get more and more stuff written from a purely 6e point of view we should see some experimentation of different Characteristic values start to take place. So be patient it will happen, but evolution doesn't take place overnight.[/quote']

 

 

*giggle*

Sorry, this sounds like a political speech.

 

And since Steve is the main writer I guess we'll have to wait for him to lead the way? I haven't made many 6e characters, I don't have the books (no group to play with, unemployed student, etc) but I have played with HD and I've found most of my builds come out much spendier 6e - but really when my 1200+ point guy becomes 1400+ It's not that big of a deal.

 

I haven't seen anything with the no figured cha that makes me sad.

[Enforcer84]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

CV is persistant' date=' levels are not, plus +1 all Combat 10 points add to Either....+1 OCV, DCV Both, all the time.....[/quote']

 

...

and you'd think I'd know that. *blush* good call.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

Basically...I have no problem with the loss of Figureds. It makes me experiment more when designing characters...which isn't a bad thing.

[Enforcer84]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

I'd argue it allows rather than forces. If you're a veteran of figured you can probably do that in your head and just as easily continue to create that way.

[Tasha]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

*giggle*

Sorry, this sounds like a political speech.

 

And since Steve is the main writer I guess we'll have to wait for him to lead the way? I haven't made many 6e characters, I don't have the books (no group to play with, unemployed student, etc) but I have played with HD and I've found most of my builds come out much spendier 6e - but really when my 1200+ point guy becomes 1400+ It's not that big of a deal.

 

I haven't seen anything with the no figured cha that makes me sad.

 

LOL I guess.

 

I think it will be the authors that create new content (instead of converting old content) who will drive any new Character building standards. Also what we post here will influence all of the authors whether the are doing conversions or new product.

[Alibear]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

Was designing a character on the fly the other night for a new player and he looked quite sweet for a 20 minute character until it was pointed out to me I hadn't purchased any OCV or DCV. Aargh.... back to the drawing board.

[Vondy]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

LOL I guess.

 

I think it will be the authors that create new content (instead of converting old content) who will drive any new Character building standards. Also what we post here will influence all of the authors whether the are doing conversions or new product.

 

Which boils down to "he who dares wins."

 

Create whole cloth 6e characters ahead of the pack and be the trendsetter.

[RexMundi]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

I'd argue it allows rather than forces. If you're a veteran of figured you can probably do that in your head and just as easily continue to create that way.

 

I've got a Locked in "figureds" player in the semi regular 6e campaign I'm doing....saving up for the next Hero Book by putting a dollar in the Jar every time I have to say "What Part, of There are no more Figured Characteristics do you not understand?"

 

~Rex

[algesan]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

I think it will be a couple of years till we all change the way we build characters. It's a cultural thing at the moment. Everyone is still clinging to their old notions of how to build characters' date=' and some are experimenting, but nothing really solid has come of it. We also have a ton of conversions of 5e material and that will enforce the 5e status quo. Once we start to get more and more stuff written from a purely 6e point of view we should see some experimentation of different Characteristic values start to take place. So be patient it will happen, but evolution doesn't take place overnight.[/quote']

 

Oh yeah, definitely cultural. I had one player going ballistic and another merely ranting at the mere idea of replacing figured stats. Took a bit of wait, jab, wait, jab during the playing session to get them to "Well, it wouldn't really change the game, it just changes the way you build a character's stats." That brings on another round, but using +30 points for stats difference seems to work out.

 

Oh, being equal opportunity for time involved to adjust, God took six days Himself...

[algesan]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

Was designing a character on the fly the other night for a new player and he looked quite sweet for a 20 minute character until it was pointed out to me I hadn't purchased any OCV or DCV. Aargh.... back to the drawing board.

 

Heh, it took me a bit of time here and a bit of time there playing with HD and then printing out a few 6e sheets. The rule of thumb I found in threads that +25 character points is fairly close, I used 30 bonus stat points to convert 4 characters over and with the savings from stat costs, it worked out fairly close. IIRC I ended up buying no OECV, just the DECV.

 

Hmmm...These toons had bought up EGO for the ECV levels, but only one had any use for OECV.... Heh, the other three could now sell back their 3 base OECV levels.

 

One thing I did to get a handle on the no figured thing was start from scratch. I build 0 pt, 10 pt, 30 pt, 50 pt, 75 pt, 100 pt quick toons to see what happened.

[RexMundi]

Re: No more Figured Characteristics?!

 

The Entire thing with the Anti Figured Characteristics is prety easily boiled down to (95% of the time), "Now I have to learn how to Power Game all over again...." Case in point my locked in Figured Mode player, ended up with a Classic Superman kind of Brick for the 1950's Arc of my campaign. Everyone else easily adapted to "50's" is Easy.....Captain Power Gamer though....is already trying to do end run tweaks, but keeps trying to tweak something that's not in the system anymore. It's almost funny.

 

~Rex