Dr. MID-Nite Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 In the 4th ed Classic Organizations, superhero Cosmo has a VVP with the limitation Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light for which he gets a -1/2 limitation. Now....not exactly being a science whiz, what sort of practical problems would this limitation cause? If I'm interpreting this correctly....he wouldn't be able to use his VVP indoors? Just looking for clarification here...thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? I'm pretty sure that's an awfully big limitation value for that. On the other hand, he's an NPC so exact math doesn't matter much. A cursory websearch makes me unable to find any common materials that UV rays can't penetrate, though I would assume if he were englobed in a Force Wall that stops energy damage, he would be shut off from UV radiation. Or, you could simply pour a barrel of sunscreen over him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? A classic entangler like Paste Pot Pete could just add some SPF 1000 to a batch of his goo and then covering Cosmo with it should shutdown or severely limit his powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? interior lighting - especially dim lighting, may lack UV light - also LCD lighting is limited in frequency and probably won't emit UV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamamura Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? But he rocks when they turn on the black light at the skating rink! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? I wouldn't rate it as that big of a limitation in most cases either. But if the player insisted on it being -1/2, and I didnt feel like putting my foot down as GM, I'd just make sure it came up often enough in play that it'd be worth -1/2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? I wouldn't rate it as that big of a limitation in most cases either. But if the player insisted on it being -1/2' date=' and I didnt feel like putting my foot down as GM, I'd just make sure it came up often enough in play that it'd be worth -1/2.[/quote'] Actually, that is putting your foot down as a GM. I'd say you'd be lucky to get -1/4 for that limitation (like "only in intense magnetic fields"). My general inclination would be to go back to the player and say "Give me a list of examples where the power would be shut down in play". If he's getting a -1/2 limitation, then I've contracted with the player that it will be sufficiently limiting to justify a -1/2 limitation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? It won't work underground, underwater, indoors away from windows, or even near windows if they're UV Polarized (which many many office building windows are these days). I'd still only peg it at -1/4, as Hugh does. A note though that pet/plant lights and 'full spectrum' lights (almost always some form of florescent) emit in the UV Spectrum, so if an office is using those (as some are these days) then the indoor limitation goes away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. MID-Nite Posted January 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? It won't work underground, underwater, indoors away from windows, or even near windows if they're UV Polarized (which many many office building windows are these days). I'd still only peg it at -1/4, as Hugh does. A note though that pet/plant lights and 'full spectrum' lights (almost always some form of florescent) emit in the UV Spectrum, so if an office is using those (as some are these days) then the indoor limitation goes away. Thanks Ghost Angel...appreciate the imput. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? I recognize that most folks' understanding of what's meant by "UV" is different from what I think of; to me, nothing longer-wavelength than the Earth's atmospheric window cutoff -- which is about 300 nm -- is ultraviolet. Instead, that's optical or visible. Yes, human retinas can't register wavelengths between that cutoff and about 400 nm, but such radiation still makes it through the atmosphere in good conditions and there are plants and animals that make use of it. To refer to the terminology in Wikipedia, I generally think of that "near ultraviolet" as part of visible, and humans' eyes are too lame to see it. The harder ultraviolet, wavelengths less than 300 nm (so, "middle", "far", "vacuum", "extreme", etc.), aren't encountered on Earth's surface naturally. Those are used in some industrial processes but you more or less never encounter such radiation by accident here on Earth's surface. Non-phosphor-coated mercury fluorescent lamps will produce that stuff, but such lamps are special-purpose and rarely encountered. Incandescents and LED lamps produce none of the shorter-wave UV. Most forms of glass are opaque to wavelengths less than 300 - 350 nm; for shorter wavelengths you need to use quartz or fused silica, which are rather more expensive. If that's the sort of thing your player was thinking, then the bigger limitation discount would be justified. You'd probably have to work to get places where his power could be used, in fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? In the 4th ed Classic Organizations' date=' superhero Cosmo has a VVP with the limitation Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light for which he gets a -1/2 limitation. Now....not exactly being a science whiz, what sort of practical problems would this limitation cause? If I'm interpreting this correctly....he wouldn't be able to use his VVP indoors? Just looking for clarification here...thanks...[/quote'] It's only really worth a -1/4 limitation IMHO. There is UV light everywhere. Heck even Fluorescent bulbs emit a small amount of UV light, not to mention moonlight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? In the 4th ed Classic Organizations' date=' superhero Cosmo has a VVP with the limitation Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light for which he gets a -1/2 limitation. Now....not exactly being a science whiz, what sort of practical problems would this limitation cause? If I'm interpreting this correctly....he wouldn't be able to use his VVP indoors? Just looking for clarification here...thanks...[/quote'] Sounds about right...personally I'd set it at -1/4,,,,not many adventures happen underground, most "indoors" have windows...does not sound like all that limiting....for me -1/2 means it loses about 1/2 of its usefullness...I don't think it reaches that level... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? Sounds about right...personally I'd set it at -1/4' date=',,,not many adventures happen underground, most "indoors" have windows...does not sound like all that limiting....for me -1/2 means it loses about 1/2 of its usefullness...I don't think it reaches that level...[/quote'] -1/2 is defined by a power losing 1/3 of it's effectiveness. As per Hero Designer and some page number in 5er and 6e1 that I am too lazy to look up A power that loses 1/2 it's effectiveness is a -1 limit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? -1/2 is defined by a power losing 1/3 of it's effectiveness. As per Hero Designer and some page number in 5er and 6e1 that I am too lazy to look up A power that loses 1/2 it's effectiveness is a -1 limit I think you're confusing "real" math with "hero" math....you're welcome to prove me wrong, but meanwhile I'm going to continue to disagree.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? I think you're confusing "real" math with "hero" math....you're welcome to prove me wrong' date=' but meanwhile I'm going to continue to disagree....[/quote'] "real" Math? if "-1/2" says multiple something by 2/3 that sounds like a loss of 1/3 to me, not 1/2. -1/2 is not "divided by 2" Or if you mean -1/2 = -50% then by that logic -1 = -100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? I think you're confusing "real" math with "hero" math....you're welcome to prove me wrong' date=' but meanwhile I'm going to continue to disagree....[/quote'] OK to prove you wrong. please open your 6e1 to pg 382 look at the first column, the first table "Limited Power Guidelines Table" " -0 Power loses Less than a fourth of it's overall effectiveness -1/4 Power loses about a fourth of it's overall effectiveness -1/2 power loses about a third of it's over all effectiveness -1 Power loses about half it's overall effectiveness etc" This same table also appears in 5er Pg 298, and in 5e pg 194 also it in Hero Designer (where I got the quote) BTW when it comes to the rules and I quote something, I do so verbatim so there is no confusion as to it being my opinion or something you can look and read word for word in the rules. Tasha PS when you apply a -1/2 limit to a 100 active point power, it ends up costing 66.666666 gaining you 1/3 discount on the cost... looks like 1/3 to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? "real" Math? if "-1/2" says multiple something by 2/3 that sounds like a loss of 1/3 to me, not 1/2. -1/2 is not "divided by 2" Or if you mean -1/2 = -50% then by that logic -1 = -100% Exactly so...in "hero" math lose 1/2 effectiveness equals -1/2 lim, lose most equals -1, lose so much it's more or less a cool notation -2.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? OK to prove you wrong. please open your 6e1 to pg 362 look at the first column, the first table "Limited Power Guidelines Table" " -0 Power loses Less than a fourth of it's overall effectiveness -1/4 Power loses about a fourth of it's overall effectiveness -1/2 power loses about a third of it's over all effectiveness -1 Power loses about half it's overall effectiveness etc" This same table also appears in 5er Pg 298, and in 5e pg 194 also it in Hero Designer (where I got the quote) BTW when it comes to the rules and I quote something, I do so verbatim so there is no confusion as to it being my opinion or something you can look and read word for word in the rules. Tasha PS when you apply a -1/2 limit to a 100 active point power, it ends up costing 66.666666 gaining you 1/3 discount on the cost... looks like 1/3 to me. OK, so it looks like from 5th onward this is 'offical"....sorry to have argued...take care... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? That's how it worked in 4th, too. Not sure about previous editions, never played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? That's how it worked in 4th' date=' too. Not sure about previous editions, never played.[/quote'] I checked my 4th edition book (BBB) and couldn't find that particular chart. Though I remember assuming something similar to that from 2ed up to now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? OK' date=' so it looks like from 5th onward this is 'offical"....sorry to have argued...take care...[/quote'] That's how it worked in 4th' date=' too. Not sure about previous editions, never played.[/quote'] I checked my 4th edition book (BBB) and couldn't find that particular chart. Though I remember assuming something similar to that from 2ed up to now. The 4E books spells out only -1 and -2 as "Loses Half" and "Loses Almost All" respectively. It has been that way since at least 4th, probably earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? I think 5e was the first to really spell it out. However, you could extrapolate from values of fixed limitations. A -1 limitation should be about as limiting as other -1 limitations. An activation roll of 14- was a -1/2 limitation, and meant your power would work about 90% of the time. An activation roll of 11- was a -1 limitation and meant your power would work 62.5% of the time. If it worked on an 8-, then it would activate about 25% of the time. That's a lot more than the 2/3, 1/2 and 1/3 costs of these various abilities. However, if the power would work 2/3 of the time and you knew which 2/3 of the time, that has an advantage over a power that randomly fails such that you can't know when it may fail, and you may waste actions trying to use it. I don't know how anyone would reasonably conclude that a power which fails 10% of the time at random has lost half its effectiveness, but 1/3 seems a reasonable compromise. One that works 62.5% of the time still carries significant utility, but it seems reasonable to say it's lost half its benefits. Activating one time in four? Not at all reliable - it probably has lost most of its effectiveness. An OAF has a lot of restrictions, but I'm hard pressed to say it's "lost most of its effectiveness". reasonably enforced, including places it can't be taken to and people who use Disarm, and it probably loses the half its effectiveness suggested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? The 4E books spells out only -1 and -2 as "Loses Half" and "Loses Almost All" respectively. It has been that way since at least 4th' date=' probably earlier.[/quote'] I think that in 4e and earlier we compared it to both Foci and Activation Rolls to gauge how much the Limit was worth. That might have been a group thing, but our groups rules culture picked up stuff from the Original Hero folk. Due to the fact that a couple of the people we gamed with gamed with the Hero Folk or gamed with people who gamed with the Hero Folk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brionl Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? Well, I've got my first and second edition books here, and they only have the "power only works in a given situation +1/4 to +2" and give examples of only in darkness +1/2, only in water +1 and only in an intense magnetic field +2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Re: Not Usable Without Ultraviolet Light....? Well' date=' I've got my first and second edition books here, and they only have the "power only works in a given situation +1/4 to +2" and give examples of only in darkness +1/2, only in water +1 and only in an intense magnetic field +2.[/quote'] Weird on Champs 2eRev pg 33, Limited power lists, No range -1/2 (BTW I am converting these to current current conventions for Limits, the original text used + values for both Advantages and Limitations), costs end -1/2, based on another power (ie linked) -1/2, Power works in a given situation -1/4 to -2, then listed the examples Brionl listed, then on the next page of that (Champs 2eRev pg 34) it lists, Does NOT work in Darkness -1/2, and Does NOT work in intense magnetic fields -12. IIRC the text between first and second edition were identical (with 2e fixing some spelling errors including the famous Sleth skill). Jen Making me open my Champions boxed edition... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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