A Superhuman Registration World

[csyphrett]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

In my opinion, the only way you could make a draft work where players wouldn't look for ways to screw it up, or actively resist such a thing is to have something so massive that a draft is the only way to fight it, like an alien invasion.

 

When Dr. Agenda was setting up one of his campaigns, we talked about heroes could change the world in just a little time. A viable space program could be done easily. Now imagine they brought something back that spreads like kudzu. That would cause a draft without problems.

 

Of course it would turn the setting into an ongoing war story.

CES

[Christopher]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

One thing about the super teams:

You might only be forced to work for them for a time equall to your normal army term. After that, you are free to do what ever you want (inlcuding more crimefighting).

 

When we Germans still had the draft (recently stopped using it, but it is still in the constitution), there was the option to refuse armed service (out of consience against killing) and go to the "Zivildienst" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zivildienst

At first that was longer than what you would have to do in the army (about 50% I think), but it got shortened more and more recently untill it was equal in duration to military service. With the stop of draft, "Zivildienst" got automatically stopped too.

 

Does this sound like somethigg you could use? CvK is pretty common for supers, so refusing out of conscience and going into "Civil Service" for 1.5 times that time sound like a good idea for them.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

When I served, I was a volunteer. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't mind being recalled to active duty, so long as there was no coercion involved, but so far you have described a system where the government's methods for ensuring cooperation seem a greater threat to the nation than the things they are trying to oppose.

 

I'd definitely investigate the Ghandi/Martin Luther King passive resistance bit. I'd help people with my powers but would object to being forced into government service against my will. Unless my character's in a fantasy campaign, I refuse to outright kill any opponent that can be dealt with by less lethal means. Getting drafted would mean someone else would be calling my shots for me, and perhaps expecting me to kill. I don't think I would cooperate. I wouldn't devastate city blocks in an effort to avoid capture, but if captured I would passively resist cooperation to the best of my ability.

[Christopher]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

When I served' date=' I was a volunteer. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't mind being recalled to active duty, so long as there was no coercion involved, but so far you have described a system where the government's methods for ensuring cooperation seem a greater threat to the nation than the things they are trying to oppose.[/quote']

Mostly we others discribed it that way, including me. Clonus idea is pretty good:

You can choose between:

Serving in the armed forces

or

You get a sponsored base, superjet, and local police powers.

 

That's more than most normal draftees get to choose from!

 

Actually I even think some villians would try to get on the police powers by feigning to be the good guys.

[sinanju]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

Although there are certainly highly questionable elements of the program, threats of assassination against loved ones are definitely not part of the deal. If you resist arrest and start fighting against attempts to bring you in with resulting collateral damage, you will be classed as a "terrorist", and that will make your loved ones terrorist associates. But they'll have all the real life rights of an American citizen. Unless they are actively aiding and abetting you, they'll be questioned with the right to a lawyer and/or surveilled, bugged, wiretapped. If it is found that they are giving a fugitive domestic terrorist aid and comfort, they'll be arrested and charged, but will have the usual rights of an accused criminal.

 

No assassination threats though.

 

No assassination threats? That's mighty white of them.

 

All of my PCs will be looking up Magneto and volunteering for the cause, thanks. They want a civil war? We'll give 'em one to remember. Superheroes are supposed to protect people from supervillains--only in this case the supervillains are running the government. It's gonna get ugly, but it's got to be done.

[Christopher]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

No assassination threats? That's mighty white of them.

 

All of my PCs will be looking up Magneto and volunteering for the cause, thanks. They want a civil war? We'll give 'em one to remember. Superheroes are supposed to protect people from supervillains--only in this case the supervillains are running the government. It's gonna get ugly, but it's got to be done.

No, they aren't. The constitution and the will of the people gives them the right to do that and that's even more white than what america did with gitmo. If you don't like it: You can always just leave the country and go to one without such a draft.

You say superheroes have to fight villians? With that system you get a base, transportatio nand police powers for free. A very good deal compared that what a german draftee could shoose from...

[Pizza Man]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

Getting a base, a plane, and police powers are not compensation for involuntary servitude. Not everyone wants/or is mentally suited to fighting crime, nor should they be compelled to do so.

 

A govt that threatens to punish/imprison innocents to coerce super slavery is a tyranny. There is no way around that.

Calling involuntary servitude a "draft" does not change that fact.

[BarretWallace]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

In order to qualify for a team deputization' date=' you need personal transportation capabilities capable of mobilising team members in anywhere in the state in 30 minutes or less. (It's known as the pizza clause)[/quote']

 

Mmmmm.......pizza.........

 

[promise]Will read rest of thread before commenting more.[/promise]

[Christopher]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

Getting a base' date=' a plane, and police powers are not compensation for involuntary servitude. Not everyone wants/or is mentally suited to fighting crime, nor should they be compelled to do so.[/quote']

What I forgot to tell about the German Civil Service: You only have to get there, if they would conscript you. If they think you aren't fit enough for military, you don't have to do either.

 

Also it's not slavery. It's part of the constitution that gives you such rights as "free speech", "free religion", "free choice of occupation". The potential for being drafted or compelled to do Civil Service is a small price to pay for that.

Always lamenting about "Constitutional Rights", but then saying "draft is slavery" because you don't like it is very egoistic. A constitution is a contract between a nation and it's citizens. Just taking your gain of the contract but denying your part of the bargain strikes me as wrong.

[Orion]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

I don't think liberals have a monopoly on this sort of outrage. If you think so you really don't understand the authentic connservative mindset. I think nowdays it just comes to the liberals and the Neo-cons want domination over different aspects of your life.

 

I agree. No matter the political party, they are going to screw up your life and world some way. The only difference is what part of it you are willing to have screwed up by government.

[Christopher]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

If I could play in that world, I think I would play something around a "Homefront" Partiot. He has concerns about killing (thus "Civil Service"), but he can't stand those not willing to fullfill their duty in either way. Maybe he even helps hunting them down (both mundane and super draft-escapees).

Lawfull Good Alignment, with a special hatred for those not "fullfilling their obligations".

[Orion]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

Yeah I've thought about that kind of treaty' date=' and I don't find them all that believable. I don't think the United States would be coy about using super-commandos in Afghanistan if they had them particularly in a situation where it was well known that the other side was using supers. In the history of arms limitation treaties, the main reason for bothering was concern about the expense involved in participating in an arm's race. The meta-reason for having super-soldier limitation treaties is to provide an explanation for why the federal government just doesn't co-opt them all.[/quote']

 

It'll depend on the power levels quite a bit. If all the powers are at the 250 points level, they may be used in the army. No one really cares if Batman and Captain America enlist, in the long run. But if each side has a Superman and Green Lantern, then I can see a limitation treaty, as they would be like atomic weapons. It would be a public and foreign relations thing - all talk, little substance. But, like I first said, I think it would be bogus for the most part. The politicians would talk about it in public, but they would still send powers on a regular basis to do dirty work. It would be conveniently claimed that the power in question was not in the employee of the government at the time, or that all signs point to it being that power from another country.

[sinanju]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

No' date=' they aren't. The constitution and the will of the people gives them the right to do that and that's even more white than what america did with gitmo. If you don't like it: You can always just leave the country and go to one without such a draft.[/quote']

 

You can claim that the power to conscript doesn't violate the Constitutional prohibition on involuntary servitude until the cows come home, but that doesn't change the fact that being forced to serve...involuntarily...IS involuntary servitude. Sure, the Supremes have said it's okay, but they've said other things that defied common sense and logic in the interest of making sure the government has the power it needs/wants. Doesn't make it right. Every tyrant on the planet claims he has the legitimate power to do what he will. This is no different.

 

Sure, I could leave. Or I could fight to overthrow the tyrants here at home. You know, like a HERO would do.

 

You say superheroes have to fight villians? With that system you get a base, transportatio nand police powers for free. A very good deal compared that what a german draftee could shoose from...

 

What you seem to be missing is that the villains in question are the guys in gray suits running the national government. Any government that would threaten to murder innocent relatives, friends, or lovers in order to coerce a third party is evil. Full stop. Superheroes fight evil. They do not work for it. And "Hey, here in Islandia, we only shoot your loved ones if you get out of line, in EastAsia they rape them to death. You're getting a much better deal" doesn't hold much water.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

It'll depend on the power levels quite a bit. If all the powers are at the 250 points level' date=' they may be used in the army. No one really cares if Batman and Captain America enlist, in the long run. But if each side has a Superman and Green Lantern, then I can see a limitation treaty, as they would be like atomic weapons. It would be a public and foreign relations thing - all talk, little substance. But, like I first said, I think it would be bogus for the most part. The politicians would talk about it in public, but they would still send powers on a regular basis to do dirty work. It would be conveniently claimed that the power in question was not in the employee of the government at the time, or that all signs point to it being that power from another country.[/quote']

 

Heh. "We've found the United States to be in ownership of People Of Mass Destruction ..."

[Tasha]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

What I forgot to tell about the German Civil Service: You only have to get there, if they would conscript you. If they think you aren't fit enough for military, you don't have to do either.

 

Also it's not slavery. It's part of the constitution that gives you such rights as "free speech", "free religion", "free choice of occupation". The potential for being drafted or compelled to do Civil Service is a small price to pay for that.

Always lamenting about "Constitutional Rights", but then saying "draft is slavery" because you don't like it is very egoistic. A constitution is a contract between a nation and it's citizens. Just taking your gain of the contract but denying your part of the bargain strikes me as wrong.

 

I think you can see from this thread what many in the US think about the Draft. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, unless something really bad happened where it was really important that people fight (ie like the Alien Invasion, or Dr Destroyer invading New York with a Robotic army). Other than that a Draft would be VERY unpopular Politically. Any Politician who voted for it would have a hard time being reelected

[Tasha]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

OK so let's say there's a law saying that if you possess "exceptional abilities" which could be useful in combat then you are required to report it to your local draft board. The 1-S classification is created for superhumans. If within 30 days of turning 18' date=' they haven't gotten a draft exemption, they will be drafted into the military. The ways to get a draft exemption are to have some kind of handicap that will in fact make you useless despite your power, to get a job in law enforcement, intelligence or some sector of the economy considered important to national security, or gain membership one of the state sanctioned super teams. Most states have one. The teams are normally privately financed by corporate sponsors, although there a couple of small donor supported teams. Many people who manifest powers frantically shop for the 30 day window they have to get an exemption that will keep them from getting drafted and deployed in third world nations hunting terrorists, and the definition of terrorist is pretty broad...[/quote']

 

Ok, Lets get back to basics with this. What role do you see the PC's playing in this World? What kind of Adventures are they going on? You talk about a huge background item without talking about the PC's.

 

I can see the PC's doing a number of things in this world most of them either working against the Government/Corporate Interests or around them. I would like to see what you think the PC's role would be in your world.

 

BTW this world has the feel of Garth Innis's "The Boys" where all of the Supers are Corporate created/employed Supers. They exist to sell product and not much else. Any battles are mostly staged ala-pro wrestling. It's a world of rich super powered babies doing what they want while the Corporations look the other way. "The Boys" exist to show how fake the whole thing is and how messed up things are. Mostly The Boys just kill off the worst of the Corporate Heroes.

[Clonus]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

 

What you seem to be missing is that the villains in question are the guys in gray suits running the national government. Any government that would threaten to murder innocent relatives, friends, or lovers in order to coerce a third party is evil.

 

It might very well be evil. It is however, extremely irrelevant since the campaign proposal had no such government. At least, not in the United States.

[Pizza Man]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

Tasha is right. A draft needs to be justified. We're fighting two and a half wars with a volunteer army.

 

An alternative would be generous govt tax breaks to corporations who sponsor heroes, and really good pay for heroes who join the army.

No forced registration. No imprisonment of innocent loved ones. The govt gets what it wants, super agents. The bad guys get taken care of. and no crimes against humanity take place. Best of all: No Player rebellion against the forces that essentially hold their families hostage.

 

Bottom line, we do not currently possess the technology to test for super humans. Without that, there is no draft.

[Steve]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

One problem with injecting government control over superhumans is that you end up with a lot of normal people being even more fearful of them. Superhuman jackbooted thugs would probably be one of the milder things being said about them by the media, the same media that criticizes police and the military.

[Clonus]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

Ok' date=' Lets get back to basics with this. What role do you see the PC's playing in this World? What kind of Adventures are they going on? You talk about a huge background item without talking about the PC's.[/quote']

 

The vague outline I had in mind had them joining one of the lesser teams, doing a little heroics and then discovering that their corporate sponsor is up to no good, doing things like having "reservists" on the team books that are actually being used by the corporation to carry out corporate espionage, and third world atrocities. Exposing their villainous bosses and the NPC "leader" of the team (who they've been ignoring from the start because he's a stooge), the remaining team members find themselves operating sponsorless. From there the PCs would be presented with options like seeking alternative funding on terms more to their liking, hooking up with a counter culture group of "terrorists" out to overthrow the American government, going underground A-Team style, becoming Robin Hood-like supervillains or something else the players come up with.

[Clonus]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

Tasha is right. A draft needs to be justified. We're fighting two and a half wars with a volunteer army.

 

Their United States is in fact in worse shape having been dealt multiple embarassingly lethal defeats by super-terrorists.

 

 

 

No forced registration. No imprisonment of innocent loved ones.

 

Um..."innocent" loved ones were not going to be imprisoned in the first place. If resistors don't draw their loved ones in and get them to actively help fight the government, they will be spied upon, but they won't be imprisoned.

 

 

Bottom line, we do not currently possess the technology to test for super humans. Without that, there is no draft.

 

They had twenty years to develop a test and they did.

[Christopher]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

I think you can see from this thread what many in the US think about the Draft.

The best thing I can see here is the typical western overcomplaining, that I see or hear at least once per day while commuting to work. I sometimes think that we have such good lifes, we have to invent problems or make them were they don't exist.

 

We get so much from living in our countries and all it want's in return are taxes and draft.

When you think draft is so bad, take a look in one of these countries:

Mexico, Russia, Syria, White Russia, Egypt before the rebellion, any state of the UDSSR before it fell, North Vietnam, China, Cuba.

The people there have real problems with their government, not half the civil rights and draft (or at least 2/3 of that).

 

Bottom line' date=' we do not currently possess the technology to test for super humans. Without that, there is no draft.[/quote']

Did you just said that in our world without superheroes there is no super-technology? Wow, that is...obvious (-0).

[iRONIC]And totally helps us in understanding a world were both superhumans and supertech exist.[/iRONIC]

[Tasha]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

The best thing I can see here is the typical western overcomplaining, that I see or hear at least once per day while commuting to work. I sometimes think that we have such good lifes, we have to invent problems or make them were they don't exist.

 

We get so much from living in our countries and all it want's in return are taxes and draft.

When you think draft is so bad, take a look in one of these countries:

Mexico, Russia, Syria, White Russia, Egypt before the rebellion, any state of the UDSSR before it fell, North Vietnam, China, Cuba.

The people there have real problems with their government, not half the civil rights and draft (or at least 2/3 of that).

 

We don't have a draft in the US. What I was saying is that it would be quite unpopular if started up right now. IF there were a good reason to join the Armed forces (ie Invasion, or something dire) you would see the US citizenry join up so fast they would have to start refusing some to keep industry rolling. I was NOT complaining about it. Just stating the current fact that in the current world situation the war in Afganistan, and Iraq are semi unpopular wars. Voters would not support conscripting citizens to fight in those conflicts. It would be political suicide to even suggest something like that, which is why the US doesn't have a draft. We do have draft registration for Males over the age of 18 and under the age of 40something. That registration has been going on since the Reagan administration, no one has done anything but register eligible people. The US hasn't had a draft since the Vietnam war ended (that was in the 70's in case you are keeping score). Beyond a short(less than a quarter of High School) civil service thing that Seniors in High School must complete, the US has nothing that a young citizen must do after they turn 18. Once 18 it's on to College, find a full time job or voluntarily join the Armed services (or one could go tour Europe or Asia if your parents are rich).

 

Yes there are worse things to worry about, but those things weren't being discussed. What was being discussed was a very over the top Draft of Super powered individuals possibly for life. So current attitudes toward such a change of the law was discussed.

[Christopher]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

Their United States is in fact in worse shape having been dealt multiple embarassingly lethal defeats by super-terrorists.

What do you think? Would that qualify?

 

As far is got that from school the americans were always very certain about their foreing politic actions - unless someone proved he could actually hit your country. You had that big ocean between you and anyone posing a threat.

You had a few hundred warheads in europe targetting moscow. Everything was okay.

But then there was cuba with tiny 6 potential warheads at your doorstep and it nearly led to the third world war.

 

Or the sputnick shock: It wasn't about "the russians are in space". It was about "the russians can bring bombs into space so now they can hit us at home, and we don't have the rockets to couter them".

 

The same was it about the WTC and the Pentagon: How many americans even knew about the taliban before they hit america at home? And once they did, america got his "partriot act".

 

A few super terrorists should be able to convince you a superdraft is a very good idea (especially if you aren't a super yourself).

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: A Superhuman Registration World

 

A few super terrorists should be able to convince you a superdraft is a very good idea (especially if you aren't a super yourself).

 

The OP didn't specify why there was a superdraft, and the reasons he alluded to sounded kind of vague (and therefore weak). Given a superterrorist attack, I'm sure there would be supers crawling out of the woodwork to lend a hand, but I also suggest that it would have to be a seriously dire threat for more than a small percentage (I'd guess about 10%) to give up a job they are skilled at for a job where they might be expected to deal violence to others on a regular basis. I don't know about you, but I would get very, very stressed out (possibly to the point of what used to be called a "nervous breakdown") having to frequently face hostile people with intent to harm myself or others, and equipped with the ability to do so.

 

The only options in the OP for superpowered individuals are military service or as part of a superteam with law enforcement responsibilities. I'm pretty sure draftee Superguy's talents would not be squandered by assigning him to the motorpool as a wrench-turner. Likewise Superwimp, though not well-suited to law enforcement (he's a pacifist and abhors violence of any kind) is unlikely to be expected to handle only kitchen duties as part of Strikeforce Alpha.

 

Personally, I think it would be kind of neat to enlist in the National Forest Service and assist in fighting wildfires or searching for lost hikers, but that's just me. Basically, I'd rather not have to kill anyone if it can possibly be avoided. Likewise, beating someone up isn't my idea of a positive experience. People in the military have no choice in such matters so long as the order commanding them to do so is lawful.

 

Perhaps it's just me, but If my GM proposed a campaign along these lines, I would have concerns that it might be a darker campaign than I could have fun with.