HKA Problems?

[tomd1969]

I am running a Champions game where I have set the Active Point cap at 60 pts. I have a player whose character has a 45 STR and a 3d6 HKA (giving him a total 6d6 HKA).

 

Now, when I said 60 Active Points, I was thinking that the max DCs would be around 12, and created my villains to suit. Now, this character has nearly killed three or four villains. The bad part is that none of the other characters have abilities anywhere near this range. Now, this ability clearly violates the spirit of my campaign guidelines, even though it doesn't violate the letter of my guidelines.

 

Now, I'm going to wax philosophical here for a moment. IMV, RKA and HKA is essentially the same power with the trade-off that RKA is used at Range (obviously), and HKA can add STR to the damage it does. Since RKA and HKA are the same cost, one can assume that the designers felt that the value of "At Range" and "Can Add STR" were about the same. But is it really? HA was changed in the 5th Edition for just such a problem. Did they go far enough?

 

Has anybody else come across this? What did you do in such a circumstance?

 

TIA, and all that.

[eepjr24]

Well, this doesn't help you much now, but I carefully review all character sheets to try to make sure little problems like this don't exist. Even doing that you get things that slip through, though.

 

Personally, I would have a talk with the player about changing the attack. If they are unwilling to do so, I would explain to them that certain villains would be taking off the kid gloves, and then have one or two show up with a similar construct to their power. And if that does not work, let them kill a supervillain and face the consequences (with authorities, conflicts of Psych Lims, conflicts with team mates and all the other issues).

 

The best way to explain to the players is this: Killing attacks are made to kill. If you don't want to kill, don't buy killing attacks.

 

- E

[Pattern Ghost]

Hmm... the player bought 45 STR and a 45 AP HKA? Sounds to me like the design goal was a 90 AP power, which is a clear violation of your guidelines. Either he wanted to do an end run around your damage cap, or he just didn't realize how potent 6d6 of HKA is.

 

Just tell him to take it down a couple notches so that the whole attack is at 60 APs.

[JmOz]

I agree,

 

I view HKA and HA as extentions of Str, thus limited by any caps I put on STR

[Supreme Serpent]

The net effect of him using the attack is a 90pt active power, everytime he uses it, so it's out of campaign guidelines. Depending on how reasonable the player is, you have several options to reduce it.

 

a ) talk to him, ask him to reduce it to a 2d6 base HKA, explaining the effect it is having on the game and how out of line the attack is with campaign guidelines. Hopefully this will resolve it.

 

b ) have him start killing villains, with the associated consequences. If that doesn't work, have him start killing normals villains have dressed up in their costumes - start with random people, then the police chief's wife, then his DNPC's, then other player's DNPC's. Sooner or later, Mr. HackyHacky is going to get reined in.

 

c ) Have him roll in the open, where you can see it. Calculate the damage yourself, ignoring the two high dice. (ie he rolls 6d6 KA, gets 6,5,4,4,3,3=25 body. Drop the two high #s and instead it only does 14 body. Apply the stun mod to the modified total.)

 

d ) have villains hit him with the same thing, or worse. 60 Str villain hits him w/ 4d6 HKA up to 8d6 HKA with linked 6d6NND, a 60 active point all senses flash, etc, etc all rolled into one attack, though each part is within guidelines on its own.

[Lord Liaden]

FWIW I've always counted Strength as figuring into the Active Points of any attack that it adds to, specifically HKA and HA. Just tell your player that 45 STR plus 45 pts. in HKA equals 90 AP, apologise to him for missing that when you were reviewing his character, and ask him to change it. Be sure to remind him that he'll now have 15 Character Points to expand his character in another direction, and let him do so. If he remains obstinate, try one of the persuasion suggestions others have mentioned above.

 

As a bit of advice for the future, I've often found Damage Class caps to be more useful than Active Point caps when balancing attacks.

[Talon]

I agree about focusing on Damage Class caps rather than (or as well as) Active Point caps. Otherwise, this guy is going to come back with:

 

30 STR (6d6)

Offensive Strike (4d6)

6d6 HA (6d6)

 

for a 16d6 attack.

[J4y]

I agree about focusing on Damage Class caps rather than (or as well as) Active Point caps. Otherwise, this guy is going to come back with:

 

I agree with that too, you have to figure the damage class for highest typical attack, in the case of a character with movement you have to factor that in as well as movethroughs can add on a significant number of dice too.

[Guest Keneton]

Use the Effectiveness rating and not a strait DC cap. Do not make a cap where everyone will end up with the same damage.

 

A spreadsheet is in the free stuff and the article is in DH#3. In all cases 3d6 HKA with a 45 strength stll rates as 90 active points.

 

More dangerous and abusive is this construct that breaks caps cold.

 

Suppose a 70 active point cap. Character buys a 55 strength and a 2+1 HKA doing DC 14 (70 active). In a fight he pushes(by 10) the HKA to 3d6 and does 6d6 killing. In this case pushing an HKA allows for a 20 point swing in active point attacks with one push.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by J4y

I agree about focusing on Damage Class caps rather than (or as well as) Active Point caps. Otherwise, this guy is going to come back with:

 

I agree with that too, you have to figure the damage class for highest typical attack, in the case of a character with movement you have to factor that in as well as movethroughs can add on a significant number of dice too.

This is the problem with damage caps. Suddenly the strongest brick in the group under a 10 dice cap can only have a strength of 40 because he can do a move through and get 2 dice.

 

Use Kineton's effectiveness rating or just eyeball the character and say "yes" or "no." A nifty way to do it is to have the players build the character with the understanding that the GM is going to make some alterations.

[Farkling]

On the option of reigning in the player...

 

Additionally to the well planned maulings of my fellow gamemasters::

 

Relative or Lackey of one of the dead villains devotes their life to legally harassing the monster that slew their "only" relative or blessed mentor.

 

Muckracking, sensationalist journalism. "This week on Jerry Springer, the wife, the 10 children, and the 2 grandchildren thrown out on the street by the callouos actions of (insert hero name here)"

 

My personal favorite...one of the survivors, or the fearful arch foe commissions construction or design of armor/force field technology that is cheap and provides resistant defenses against the attack of that hero only. Heh. have the bodies disappear from their burial places as they are stolen for "analysis" by the designer.

 

If your campaign allows for it...have someone/something raise them from the dead and send them out after him again...only not holding any punches having been killed by him once. Warning, this one is lethal in some cases...it's a fine line between fear and death.

[Farkling]

and I agree....that's a90 AP attack, which is the problem you're having. I had this trouble recently from a neophyte. I didn't catch the martial arts stacking with his move-by/through.

 

He recently had a radiation accident which has removed the problem and given powers he likes more.

 

If your player is new, he gets the benefit of the doubt.

An experienced HERO veteran, I would suspect of pulling a fast one.

 

YMMV.

 

Where is that softie Hugh? I wonder at his solution...

[Zed-F]

On vacation, remember?

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Farkling

I had this trouble recently from a neophyte. I didn't catch the martial arts stacking with his move-by/through.

Am I missing something here? Move Through/By are combat maneuvers, just as are martial maneuvers. So how can a martial maneuver add to Move Through/By? The two are mutually exclusive. You can't add Offensive Strike or Damage Classes to a Move By.

[Zed-F]

You can if it's a Passing Strike or a Sacrifice Lunge.

[Bartman]

Yeah, I have to weigh in on the "reign him in side." Now I don't like caps of any type. But he agreed to play using them and frankly is violating the spirit and the letter of your campaign rules.

[Guest Keneton]

Originally posted by Zed-F

You can if it's a Passing Strike or a Sacrifice Lunge.

Trebuchet is correct. Passing strike and sacrifice lunge are in no way related to move by or move thru. They do not halve strength like move by and neither add 1dc/3 like move through or hurt the attacker.

 

DC's for martial arts would not add to these maneuvers just as they would not add to a basic strike maneuver.

[CrosshairCollie]

I usually only sweat the movement-added velocity for martial maneuvers (like the 4e Flying Tackle), or if the character is a move-through/move-by machine. Most of these are a dead giveaway because they take things like 2 point OCV levels with Move-Throughs and extra defenses, only against 'recoil' damage.

 

It's kind of like the Champions book has the idea of the 'power booster' .... extra dice, only used in rare occassions. Sometimes going over cap/normal damage output is fine ... doing it on a regular basis is bad.

[Zed-F]

Originally posted by Keneton

Trebuchet is correct. Passing strike and sacrifice lunge are in no way related to move by or move thru. They do not halve strength like move by and neither add 1dc/3 like move through or hurt the attacker.

 

DC's for martial arts would not add to these maneuvers just as they would not add to a basic strike maneuver.

 

Hmm, I thought those did add movement-based damage instead of a flat adder. Maybe that's a 4e thing.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Zed-F

Hmm, I thought those did add movement-based damage instead of a flat adder. Maybe that's a 4e thing.

They add velocity damage but they cannot be combined with the maneuvers, move-by or move-through. It's a semantics issue.

[DigitalGolem]

There are so many ways to add DC's that almost any DC cap will run afoul somehow. Example: 80 str brick throws character with shrinking, shrinking character turns off shrinking, performs move-thru w/ extra dice from ridiculous thrown velocity. Yes, this really happened, but I can't remember how many DC's it did. Way too many. We had a universe to save, OK?

 

The thing is, the GM knew this was possible, and allowed it in extreme circumstances. Just once. If we had done it too often, our group would have acquired a "reputation" disadvantage, and that's what I would advise for your 6d6KA problem. People will talk, and even if he doesn't kill anyone, villains he encounters will be prepared to deal with him. They'll use human shields, or stay out of range, or stage a diversion to keep him busy.

 

I agree it would be easier to just re-work the character's power level, but if that fails, you can handle it in-game, in ways that fit the circumstances, and might actually result in some good character development. (pun intended)

 

Have fun,

 

DGv3.0

[tomd1969]

My memory went for a jog...

 

Hmmm... That jogs the memory a little bit. In a recent storyline, the PCs ran smack into a local gun-running ring who was getting their weaponry from the Warlord. In the confrontation, the character in question killed one of the gang members (he rolled something like 30 BODY vs. 0 PD, 10 BODY = one dead Faceless Mook). Perhaps he should start feeling the consequences for that, and perhaps the Mook should get a name.

 

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm sure that this is 2nd degree murder (Class A-I Felony), which in NY state, carries a life term. I think my next storyline is going to be a trial. Perhaps after that he will either a) stop using the 6d6 HKA, go to the pokey for the rest of his natural life, or c) reduce the HKA.

 

What's even funnier (and more dangerous to the PCs), is that they have recently applied for Sanction. Now that one of the team-members is being accused of Murder 2, it doesn't look like they'll get it.

 

Thanks everyone for the advice.

[Farkling]

okay...I'm starting to wonder a bit...I have apparently missed TWO combat things recently.

 

Velocity doesn't add to MA damge for move-by/move through with a Martial Manuever??

 

Then why the complaints about those high STR characters who buy martial arts? Are the CV/DC bonuses worth trading your bonus velocity from leaping or running or flying?

 

Inquiring minds want to know. I will have to locate my book.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Farkling

okay...I'm starting to wonder a bit...I have apparently missed TWO combat things recently.

 

Velocity doesn't add to MA damge for move-by/move through with a Martial Manuever??

 

Then why the complaints about those high STR characters who buy martial arts? Are the CV/DC bonuses worth trading your bonus velocity from leaping or running or flying?

Move By/Thru are already combat maneuvers, so no they cannot add to other maneuvers' damage or vice versa. (Sweep is a special circumstance which allows two or more maneuvers in one Phase. However, those multiple manuevers are sequential and not simultaneous so the damage does not add directly.) Martial arts Damage Classes add only to martial arts maneuvers, not to standard or optional maneuvers.

 

High STR characters with martial arts can hit for extra dice beyond that indicated by their raw STR, but unless they're moving pretty fast it's seldom better to do a Move Through/By rather than an Offensive Strike. And Move Through/By carries substantial OCV/DCV penalties making it less than optimal for characters without high CV.

 

My character Zl'f is a fast martial artist (32" Running) with 3 DCs and a 15 STR, so if Move Through added with martial arts maneuvers she could add 10½d6 to her maximum martial arts attack of 10d6 with Offensive Strike. She can currently do 13d6 with a full speed Move Through, but that has a 95% chance of Stunning her if she fails to Knockback her target and a fair chance of knocking her unconscious. It's a sheer desperation move; not a mainstay of her combat tactics. A 20d6 Move through would quite possibly kill her as she has only 6PD during Move Throughs. (Half of her 12 PD/ED defenses are Combat Luck, which doesn't work when making a Move Through/By.)

[Zed-F]

Is she planning to get a passing strike to use a bit more safely than a move-through?