Clonus Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? This. Recently, I had a chance to watch Dark Knight again and this exact thought occurred to me. Remember, in the movie dozens of cops are killed, along with several very prominent citizens. Never mind Batman killing. Why doesn't some random cop put a bullet in the Joker's brain? Not trying to bash all - or even most - cops, but not all of them are Batman-level moral paragons. . I actually have a character inspired by this question. Read my sig line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? Still' date=' while a cop-killer might avoid death at the hands of the police in Gotham, there's very little reason to believe they wouldn't have to endure some very rough treatment while in custody, from arrest to pre-trial detention to prison(or transport to Arkham). I'd think the cops would very much want to put across the message that killing their buddies is a VERY bad move. They're funny that way.[/quote'] Did you forgot how the Joker escaped when he was captured in the Dark Knight? He used exaclty that logic against them. He even used it as part of his main plan to get to the chinese guy who knew where the money was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? Did you forgot how the Joker escaped when he was captured in the Dark Knight? He used exaclty that logic against them. He even used it as part of his main plan to get to the chinese guy who knew where the money was. Yeah, that there is what's known as "artistic license". The NYPD would have had 20 cops in the room, with tasers, night sticks and possibly a toilet plunger. And nobody would remember seeing a thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? Yeah, that there is what's known as "artistic license". The NYPD would have had 20 cops in the room, with tasers, night sticks and possibly a toilet plunger. And nobody would remember seeing a thing... And his Lawyer would sue the department out of existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? And his Lawyer would sue the department out of existence. One small problem with that. You generally need a sympathetic plaintiff for the jury to award big damages. This would be like Jeffrey Dahmer's parents trying to sue the prison for wrongful death after he was murdered in a bathroom there. Sure, they could possibly even win the case, but the jury could also award them 1 dollar in damages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? My hero/police officer Bulls-eye has a code vs killing. He will not kill because he is so good at his marksmanship that he knows he doesn't have to. He's recognized as sniper quality material. He's also recognized by both the police force and media for "finding the way where there is no way". Even when the time came where a thug held a knife at a lady hostage's throat did he find a way to save her and not kill. It helps he has access to more than the usual police weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? One small problem with that. You generally need a sympathetic plaintiff for the jury to award big damages. This would be like Jeffrey Dahmer's parents trying to sue the prison for wrongful death after he was murdered in a bathroom there. Sure' date=' they could possibly even win the case, but the jury could also award them 1 dollar in damages.[/quote'] And the cops involved would still all lose their jobs, Internal Affairs would land on them like a tonne of bricks for that level of police brutality. To say nothing of all the negative press the department would receive and I'd imagine the department's public image would be shot as well. Personally I don't think the NYPD would be stupid enough to do something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? And the cops involved would still all lose their jobs, Internal Affairs would land on them like a tonne of bricks for that level of police brutality. To say nothing of all the negative press the department would receive and I'd imagine the department's public image would be shot as well. Personally I don't think the NYPD would be stupid enough to do something like that. Didn't the Joker blow up a police precinct building in The Dark Knight? The Gotham paper's op-ed page would be carrying "just kill the Joker already, Batman!" editorials on a weekly basis. We're basically not talking so much about a run of the mill cop-killing thug as someone who's a cross between OBL and Caligula in the eyes of the public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? Didn't the Joker blow up a police precinct building in The Dark Knight? The Gotham paper's op-ed page would be carrying "just kill the Joker already' date=' Batman!" editorials on a weekly basis. We're basically not talking so much about a run of the mill cop-killing thug as someone who's a cross between OBL and Caligula in the eyes of the public.[/quote'] Show me evidence of that happening in real life, untill you do I won't accept your thoughts on how police "would" handle this situation as realistic. Especially since there are a great many serial killers and bombers who've been caught by police who were not subjected to the things you say police would do to such people, in real life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? Show me evidence of that happening in real life' date=' untill you do I won't accept your thoughts on how police "would" handle this situation as realistic. Especially since there are a great many serial killers and bombers who've been caught by police who were not subjected to the things you say police would do to such people, in real life.[/quote'] We're not talking about someone who 1) has a typical serial killer body count, 2) has only killed cops the one time, or 3) has only escaped from custody once. In fact there are zero real world analogues to the Joker, and the nearest ones are likely either a) dead or securely locked away after the first rampage. We're talking about a guy with a body count in the hundreds(or even thousands), who's murdered dozens of cops on multiple occasions, and has escaped from custody numerous times, killing more people almost each and every time. "Outlier" doesn't even begin to describe that scenario. It's not hard to believe police response would also be an outlier. There's a reason why many police brutality cases involve high speed chases--their adrenaline gets pumping, and by the time they stop the guy, it's "go time". They finally grab this guy, one guy gets a gratuitous shot in, then another, then it quickly gets out of hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? The stuff you have described does not happen in real life on a regular basis, such cases are rare even with cop killers and serial killers. Having them happen in comicbooks on a regular basis would make those comics LESS realistic, not more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? The stuff you have described does not happen in real life on a regular basis' date=' such cases are rare even with cop killers and serial killers. Having them happen in comicbooks on a regular basis would make those comics LESS realistic, not more.[/quote'] I think having police officers act without emotion and with professional deportment at all times, even when handling someone like the Joker, would be the height of unrealistic. It doesn't happen in real life(see the aforementioned comments about high-speed chases), and would seem to be even less likely in such a scenario. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? See the considerably greater number of incidents where the police have caught a violent crook and acted completely professional about it. I'm fairly sure they'd drastically outnumber the cases where they did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? See the considerably greater number of incidents where the police have caught a violent crook and acted completely professional about it. I'm fairly sure they'd drastically outnumber the cases where they did not. sigh. I specifically used the term "outlier" to describe the Joker-in-custody scenario. I happen to think it's one of those all-bets-are-off scenarios, especially if he has a body count in the hundreds or even thousands, if he's killed many cops before, and if they have no guarantee he won't escape(yet again). Not to mention he'd likely be continuously mouthing off and taunting highly-stressed and agitated cops who had all lost comrades to his rampages. That's a classic something-has-got-to-give situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? The stuff you have described does not happen in real life on a regular basis' date=' such cases are rare even with cop killers and serial killers. Having them happen in comicbooks on a regular basis would make those comics LESS realistic, not more.[/quote'] Are we seriously arguing realism in a world with dudes who can lift buildings intact and fly off with them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? If the Joker's in police custody 20 times in 10 years, there's a non-trivial chance that he will be mistreated once or twice in that time frame. I think that's entirely reasonable to assert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? Are we seriously arguing realism in a world with dudes who can lift buildings intact and fly off with them?I don't remember this happening in The Dark Knight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? Are we seriously arguing realism in a world with dudes who can lift buildings intact and fly off with them? He's the one who brought up how real world police officers would act. I'm just saying he's wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? We're not talking about someone who 1) has a typical serial killer body count, 2) has only killed cops the one time, or 3) has only escaped from custody once. In fact there are zero real world analogues to the Joker, and the nearest ones are likely either a) dead or securely locked away after the first rampage. We're talking about a guy with a body count in the hundreds(or even thousands), who's murdered dozens of cops on multiple occasions, and has escaped from custody numerous times, killing more people almost each and every time. "Outlier" doesn't even begin to describe that scenario. It's not hard to believe police response would also be an outlier. There's a reason why many police brutality cases involve high speed chases--their adrenaline gets pumping, and by the time they stop the guy, it's "go time". They finally grab this guy, one guy gets a gratuitous shot in, then another, then it quickly gets out of hand. Wait, are you talking about overall DC continuity or the Dark Knight film continuity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? I have to go with Megaplayboy on this one. Cops are human, even the best of them and they make errors in judgement, react emotionally, etc, all the time. Police officers have beaten and abused suspects because they didn't like their attitude let alone mass murdering other cops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? Cops do not act the way Megaplayboy says they do in real life. There are numerous accounts of serial killers captured by police who didn't end up killed or savagely beaten the moment somebody looked the other way. The friggin Unabomber was captured by the police and despite being a domestic terrorist who's blown up numerous buildings and slain several people in the process, police officers were able to maintain their professionalism and not kill him out of hand. The evidence does not support Megaplayboy's theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? Cops do not act the way Megaplayboy says they do in real life. There are numerous accounts of serial killers captured by police who didn't end up killed or savagely beaten the moment somebody looked the other way. The friggin Unabomber was captured by the police and despite being a domestic terrorist who's blown up numerous buildings and slain several people in the process, police officers were able to maintain their professionalism and not kill him out of hand. The evidence does not support Megaplayboy's theory. And many people have had "accidents" in jails and police stations or gotten some curbside justice. Rember Rodney King? An uncle of man caught a beating from a cop for being "disrespectful". How people have been shot while "resisting arrest" or tasered for no apparent reason? I think its rather naive to assume that if there was a killer on the scale of the Joker brought he wouldn't at least get some rough treatment, if not be killed. No one saying it would happen the first time but how long has the Joker been slaughtering cops and civilians in Gotham? There probably isn't a menber of the Gotham PD that hasn't lost a friend or someone they knew to him at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? Cops do not act the way Megaplayboy says they do in real life. There are numerous accounts of serial killers captured by police who didn't end up killed or savagely beaten the moment somebody looked the other way. The friggin Unabomber was captured by the police and despite being a domestic terrorist who's blown up numerous buildings and slain several people in the process, police officers were able to maintain their professionalism and not kill him out of hand. The evidence does not support Megaplayboy's theory. In Prince George's County in Maryland, there was a guy who ran over and killed a cop during a routine traffic stop. That guy was later arrested and "committed suicide" in his cell overnight, under incredibly dubious circumstances. It's basically considered an open homicide investigation, IIRC. There was no one else in his cell. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/washingtonpostinvestigations/2008/09/of_two_corrections_officers_ro.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? You're arguing that the police regularly act like a Dirty Harry movie and I'M the one that's niave? O_o If any police officer tried to act the way Megaplayboy suggests, they'd have Internal Affairs on thier butts so fast their heads would spin. There would be no cover up and none of the higher ups on the police force would support the officer who did it because stunts like that actually make it harder for the cops to do their job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted July 14, 2011 Report Share Posted July 14, 2011 Re: When, if ever, would your character kill? I think its rather naive to assume that if there was a killer on the scale of the Joker brought he wouldn't at least get some rough treatment' date=' if not be killed. No one saying it would happen the first time but how long has the Joker been slaughtering cops and civilians in Gotham? There probably isn't a menber of the Gotham PD that hasn't lost a friend or someone they knew to him at this point.[/quote'] And this is the crux: The more publicity he get's, the less they can do somthing stupid. If they do, he could go free because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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