When, if ever, would your character kill?

[megaplayboy]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Comic book fans aren't a monolithic entity, and often the tastes of readers of the same book may conflict with each other--one group wants Iron Agey snark and graphic violence, another wants Silver/Bronze Age Kirby slugfests, highfalutin ideals and romantic subplots; one group wants a classic character to change radically, the other wants the character to revert back to their roots; etc. Joker as ubiquitous mass murderer seems to be pretty popular with one of these groups, while the other might prefer a more light-hearted, occasionally rational version of Mr. J. Personally, I think a Joker who murders sporadically, and then very stylishly, is more terrifying than one who simply runs up a big body count every time he shows up. He should be more Ted Bundy than Genghis Khan.

[phoenix240]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Comic book fans aren't a monolithic entity...

 

Of course some people want something different. I thought it went without saying that no group is an absolute hivemind and when you describe a group you're speaking in generalities. But really look at the general outcry and drama when even the smallest changes are made in comic characters. I don't think its entierly reasonable to blame the companies for being relunctant to make changes or take risks. It goes both ways, IMO.

 

But we seem to be talking about slightly different things. I was addressing Input Jack's post about revolving door prisons and reincarnating characters, basically why comics so rarely change the status quo in an meaningful way. You appear to be talking character styles? I mean its reasonable that if the mass murderer Joker is the more popluar option, its going to get the most air time. It's not my favorite either. It makes Batman look weak (or even complicit) but it appears to be what sells (or what the company feels sells better).

[Christopher]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

At least for the revolving-door justice system Problem, DC had a partial internal Solution:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_Squad

 

The ideas is not so far of. Asuming there is nothing likwe a Superdraft and "Heroes are Heroes", there would be nobody doing the dirty work for the governments.

[megaplayboy]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Not all genre tropes work to the detriment of superheroes, either. Consider the trope that superheroes rarely get sued in the comics, and even then the lawsuits are almost never successful. In a "realistic" setting, litigation would quickly run "freelance" superheroes out of business. Not to mention the influential citizens and businesses getting municipalities to pass statutes and ordinances that would further tie the hands of would-be crimefighters.

[Cygnia]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

I'm morbidly curious if there's ever been a fictional universe that cynical enough where John Q. Public and/or John Q. Law Enforcement actually want their heroes to kill criminals. Whether they just don't believe in legal justice (or don't believe legal justice is enough) or don't want to get their own hands dirty or any number of bitter excuses for themselves remains to be seen...

[phoenix240]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Honestly, given the number of people he's killed including law enforncement officers, Arkham staff, etc its amazing (if you ignore the meta reason) the Joker hasn't been killed "resisting arrest" or during an "escape attempt" or due to mix up with his medication.

[phoenix240]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

I'm morbidly curious if there's ever been a fictional universe that cynical enough where John Q. Public and/or John Q. Law Enforcement actually want their heroes to kill criminals. Whether they just don't believe in legal justice (or don't believe legal justice is enough) or don't want to get their own hands dirty or any number of bitter excuses for themselves remains to be seen...

 

That would be interesting.

 

Or even something maybe more in line with the real world "The court, in part due to the testimony of the Batman, in this case of Gotham v Joker pronouces the death penalty."

[Gent]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Of course, a court system that's let the Joker off on an insanity plea so many times doesn't seem likely to stop. Perhaps if he murdered enough government officials, the new administration would learn from their mistake.

[megaplayboy]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Semi-realistically, the insanity statutes in whatever state Gotham is located in would likely be rolled back to the least permissive standard possible--the Joker and others of his ilk would probably be considered legally sane, and they'd all wind up facing serious jail time or even the death penalty. I also tend to think the appeals process would be streamlined even more than it is in the real world, and whatever state Gotham was in would resemble Texas more than NY in this regard.

 

Would Batman hand over crooks to a system he knew was virtually certain to put them to death? Interesting question.

[Orion]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Would Batman hand over crooks to a system he knew was virtually certain to put them to death? Interesting question.

 

Very interesting. I don't think Batman would, because I see "No one dies. Ever." being his motto. He's against crime, but targets violent crime. Superman, on the other hand, I think would hand over criminals for execution without blinking. He's more a law and order and do what Big Brother says type. If the local government wants to execute, he'll go along with it, but would never do it himself.

[Clonus]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Of course' date=' a court system that's let the Joker off on an insanity plea s[/quote']

 

Seriously dude, I'd rather go to Blackgate than Arkham. It's not like they ever declare someone "cured".

[Bloodstone]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

I'm morbidly curious if there's ever been a fictional universe that cynical enough where John Q. Public and/or John Q. Law Enforcement actually want their heroes to kill criminals. Whether they just don't believe in legal justice (or don't believe legal justice is enough) or don't want to get their own hands dirty or any number of bitter excuses for themselves remains to be seen...

 

Actually, that's a considerable part of how Kingdom Come came about...

 

And arguably, during those periods of time when the Authority had major public support for having the balls to do what governments couldn't/wouldn't.

[Cygnia]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Actually, that's a considerable part of how Kingdom Come came about...

 

And arguably, during those periods of time when the Authority had major public support for having the balls to do what governments couldn't/wouldn't.

 

But here's where the cynicism comes in though. John Q. Public might cheer Magog killing the Joker -- but John Q. Public doesn't want to go do it himself. He wants someone else with "the balls" to do the dirty work.

 

I know there have been Rust Age universes where anti-heroes casually kill criminals like pixels on a shoot-em-up video game. What I want to know if there's been any sort of metahuman universe where the public (and even law enforcement) encourages heroes to kill. Not just because they're so sick of crime -- but because they don't want to be the ones doing the killing. The public refuses to take that burden themselves, but want to guilt/beg those who "work outside the law" to do it for them.

[Blue]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Audra Blue would do it as equal measure. That is, the person would have to have done something horrible (like a serial killer) but she'd definitely do it. She's the most vigilante-like of my characters.

 

Anthem would do it to protect someone who was in iminent danger of death, like how a cop shoots someone to keep them from completing a murder. Mind you, if at all possible she goes for the disabling shot first, but she'd do it if she had to. Fortunately she hasn't had to.

 

Uncle Slam has killed many times in his long lifetime, but he's had a "code vs." since 'Nam. He would kill to prevent something on the scale of the battle of Detroit, which in my campaign history had him as one of the primary good guys. But make no mistake, the next time he kills is when he hangs up his costume, because his personal disappointment will cause him to leave the heroism to others.

[Enforcer84]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

ROVER would shoot to kill, but mostly because he doesn't really understand you can't just repair humans with spare parts. On the other hand, he does ask them to surrender first.

 

Rumbaba certainly fights ferociously if forced to do so, but would prefer to hamstring or blind opponents instead, so they can be handed over to the state executioners alive. But then he lives in a fantasy setting and has no illusions about the cheapness of life, despite being a romantic at heart.

 

Zero wouldn't kill a recognizable human, or fellow sentient. But then his power set is mostly mental attacks anyway.

 

Brother Polonius would be reluctant to kill a fellow human, and could only imagine doing so if the person was the grossest kind of heretic. He has no worries if somebody else does the dirty work for him, however, nor has any moral qualms whatsoever about strapping large bombs to mutants, and telling them the Emperor will redeem them if they run off towards that group of Orks over there and pull the detonation cord.

 

And Vitus... Vitus. Is anybody even remotely surprised that Vitus would use deadly force against any assailant, defeated assailant, person that insulted him grievously, person who he considers would be more useful dead, person that would make a good example to others, person that would serve as a useful human sacrifice, or any member of any species that he has decided in the past can never be trusted? On the other hand, he's reluctant to kill other gnolls. He has something of a blind spot there.

 

I would love to be there as Vitus berated someone for killing gnolls out of hand. I love people with no sense of irony.

[dmjalund]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Would Batman hand over crooks to a system he knew was virtually certain to put them to death? Interesting question.

multiple killers, almost certainly.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

I don't see the source of the problem as 'Batman not killing the Joker'. I see the problem as 'writers should never have let the Joker succeed'.

[Twilight]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

I don't see the source of the problem as 'Batman not killing the Joker'. I see the problem as 'writers should never have let the Joker succeed'.

 

I agree with this. Batman: The Animated Series showed that it's possible to make The Joker a threat, without having him slaughter dozens of people each time he appears.

[csyphrett]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

I don't think change in the status quo is the problem with comics. I think it's the way the change is done is so bad, even non-fans go what was that. I tried to explain what happened to Hal Jordan from going crazy to now to someone who hasn't read comic book in decades. He was like thats the lamest thing ever.

 

I think a body count is confused with realism. In the real world with powers, I think a lot of villains would be shot resisting arrest.

CES

[Andrew_A]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

I don't think change in the status quo is the problem with comics. I think it's the way the change is done is so bad, even non-fans go what was that. I tried to explain what happened to Hal Jordan from going crazy to now to someone who hasn't read comic book in decades. He was like thats the lamest thing ever.

 

I think a body count is confused with realism. In the real world with powers, I think a lot of villains would be shot resisting arrest.

CES

 

This.

 

Recently, I had a chance to watch Dark Knight again and this exact thought occurred to me. Remember, in the movie dozens of cops are killed, along with several very prominent citizens. Never mind Batman killing. Why doesn't some random cop put a bullet in the Joker's brain? Not trying to bash all - or even most - cops, but not all of them are Batman-level moral paragons.

 

Besides, even if the hypothetical cop was caught, would anyone in their right mind want to convict this guy? Look at Bin Laden. He was (allegedly) unarmed when he was killed and very few people have a problem with that. Imagine Bin Laden times ten and you've got the Joker and a lot of other supervillains (in terms of individual death tolls, not collectively).

[megaplayboy]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

I think the "Why is the Joker still alive?" discussion has actually been done here several times(I know I've brought it up myself at least twice). I also think that most comic book villains (at least the terrestrial ones, discounting world-murderers like Thanos, Mongul, etc.) tend to be less insane, less lethal, and less cruel/sadistic. If you're disrupting a criminal operation, and that criminal comes back a year or two later, that's frustrating, but not so frustrating that ripping the guy's head off seems like a reasonable solution. If, OTOH, you're finally cornering a crazed superhuman serial killer who's offed dozens (or even hundreds) already, and that guy gets out again, it looks pretty reasonable to ratchet up the force level to "whatever it takes to stop him for sure"--that may or may not mean lethal force, but most certainly will at least involve beating them deeply unconscious as quickly as possible, rather than engaging in obligatory banter with them.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Recently' date=' I had a chance to watch [i']Dark Knight[/i] again and this exact thought occurred to me. Remember, in the movie dozens of cops are killed, along with several very prominent citizens. Never mind Batman killing. Why doesn't some random cop put a bullet in the Joker's brain? Not trying to bash all - or even most - cops, but not all of them are Batman-level moral paragons.

 

Side effect of being an 'extra', essentially. Batman's name is on the cover, not Sgt. McGillicuddy, so no matter how hard they try, they aren't likely to succeed at anything significant. They'll shoot, sure, but they'll miss.

[megaplayboy]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

Side effect of being an 'extra'' date=' essentially. Batman's name is on the cover, not Sgt. McGillicuddy, so no matter how hard they try, they aren't likely to succeed at anything significant. They'll shoot, sure, but they'll miss.[/quote']

 

Still, while a cop-killer might avoid death at the hands of the police in Gotham, there's very little reason to believe they wouldn't have to endure some very rough treatment while in custody, from arrest to pre-trial detention to prison(or transport to Arkham). I'd think the cops would very much want to put across the message that killing their buddies is a VERY bad move. They're funny that way.

[csyphrett]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

The joker is just the face of this whatever it is. It's a claim for realism in one area, but ignored consequences in others. Maybe now that DC is redoing their stories, they will move away from this.

CES

[megaplayboy]

Re: When, if ever, would your character kill?

 

The joker is just the face of this whatever it is. It's a claim for realism in one area, but ignored consequences in others. Maybe now that DC is redoing their stories, they will move away from this.

CES

 

Yep. If one definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing over and over again, expecting a different result, then Batman (and the entire mental health/criminal justice system in Gotham) clearly qualifies as insane.