How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

[RexMundi]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

I thought I explained WHY Namor is called the First Mutant already?

 

~Rex.... A Plot Device With Blue Lips shouldn't count, but I forget who's the oldest off the top of my head Chronologically. It's Either HIM, or Selene. And even THAT got screwed up by Austen who dated HIS Mutant Plot Device Character even FURTHER back in time..... *Sticks with Namor, he still owns it for oldest in PRINT*

[Greywind]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

You're going to quibble? Your post wasn't up when I was typing.

[RexMundi]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

You're going to quibble? Your post wasn't up when I was typing.

 

Nope....That happens to me all the time .....trying to find the current officially the oldest Mutant in Marvel right now, though Namor still owns the by Print title....Pretty Sure it was Selene. She was Active in the HYBORIAN age (which is canon for Marvel).....Then you get Apocolypse, Gateway, THANOS (He's a Mutant too), and a few others but it's a pain to track down their ages and I don't want to dig out the X-Box of comics I keep it on the bottom of the pile for a reason.

[Greywind]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Have you tried Marvel's site?

[RexMundi]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Have you tried Marvel's site?

 

Their site contradicts itself. Easier to stick with the books...... Selene looks to be the chronologically oldest....then Azazel...then Apocalypse who may be tied with Thanos .....after that it's moot.....

 

~Rex....

[dmjalund]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

i believe Uatu may be a mutie!

[RexMundi]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

i believe Uatu may be a mutie!

 

Well he DOES act out of character for his Race, and as shown by Warlock (not the Cool Adam Warlock but the goofy Techovirus transmitting thingie).....that's apparently enough of a distinction to make the Cut.

 

~Rex

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Long before that...Namor was pegged as a mutant in X-men #6(yes...the original series).

 

You know, I own the coloring book paper Essential Uncanny X-Men reprint of the first #24 issues, and somehow I never noticed that one. Sometimes, I amaze even myself.

 

~Rex...says Namor was Outed as a Mutant way back in 64 (X-Men #6)...they stopped saying that for a while to differentiate him from the rest of the Mutie Scum' date=' them back in 1990 in his own title relaunch they brought back the term.[/quote']

 

Well, I know how I missed the revelation that time, I was too young to read then.

 

Cyke collects' date=' processes and stores solar energy. The same as Havok does with cosmic.[/quote']

 

Sorry, I was going by what I remembered reading in my old copy of the OHOTMU, which I've just remembered was probably from the early 90s. I forgot to take into account how outdated that book is. I wish I still had it, so I could tell you when his eyes were supposed to have worked that way.

 

Virtually,

Bodkins Odds

[Greywind]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Their site contradicts itself. Easier to stick with the books...... Selene looks to be the chronologically oldest....then Azazel...then Apocalypse who may be tied with Thanos .....after that it's moot.....

 

~Rex....

I have [ATTACH=CONFIG]39458[/ATTACH] and [ATTACH=CONFIG]39459[/ATTACH] and they conflict when describing the same character.

 

Sorry, I was going by what I remembered reading in my old copy of the OHOTMU, which I've just remembered was probably from the early 90s. I forgot to take into account how outdated that book is. I wish I still had it, so I could tell you when his eyes were supposed to have worked that way.

 

Virtually,

Bodkins Odds

I have the original run of OHOTMU from the 80's. Cyke got his overhaul, iirc, here [ATTACH=CONFIG]39460[/ATTACH]

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Thanks for the info, I was starting to worry that I had simply hallucinated that they used to work that way.

 

Sadly, that's too early for it too have been in my copy of the OHOTMU, it definitely wasn't older than '88. Now I'll forever wonder where I picked that piece of Cyclops trivia up from. I'm pretty sure it wasn't mentioned in the first two volumes of Essential Uncanny X-Men.

 

Virtually,

Bodkin Odds

[Christopher]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

I'm not asking about the logic behind anti-mutant sentiments' date=' but about something else. This isn't a thread about why Marvel has two classes of superpowered beings, one of which (mutants) is judged, often negatively as a whole while the other group is seen as individuals, each deserving to be judged upon his merits. This thread is about how to rationalize such a system in the first place (apart from truckloads of denial).[/quote']

 

1) Mutants one the whole have a bad reputation. They have been at the heart of many world ending schemes. Virtually all them have been criminals, at the least, in defiance of one or another US laws. Some of them have been terrorists. Even those groups that worked with the government eventually betrayed the USA. Many mutants are political trouble makers and separatists. Did I mention that I'm basically just talking about the public perception of the X-men here? And Spider-man thinks he's got it bad...

 

2) They can be anyone, anywhere. Including your own kids. This freaks out tons of people, though especially the racists and the religious right. Doesn't help that so many of them look like monsters. Several of them even look like demons. The Hulk might be a giant scary green guy that the army chases around, but it's not like you're daughter's going to marry him one day and have little green babies.

 

3) Prior to M Day, they were actually out breeding mankind. People didn't fear that they might one day be replaced by mutants, they were watching it happen! It was just a matter of time before homo sapiens joined cro-magnon.

 

4) There are multiple technologies that specifically identify what makes them unique. They are traceable and very easy to label. And they constantly rally together because of that label. It's not like Luke Cage and Daredevil have some special bond by virtue off them both having powers, but mutants DO because they have the X-Gene. Mutants aren't just members of random teams. They are an actual society of super beings.

 

5) Even the rest of the superhuman world treats them as "other". Because you can't reliably make more Hulks or Captain Americas. The freak accident that gave the Fantastic Four and Spider-man their powers can't be replicated. Dr Strange can't train an army of apprentices and Tony Stark doesn't have the money/trust to form an army of Iron Men. But prior to M-Day the mutants numbers swell with every passing year. And after M-Day, almost all the mutants have rallied together, united in the hope of survival. The fact the X-men have their own island, are recognized as the most powerful superhuman force on earth, are willing to to harbor known criminals and terrorists just because of their race... well, it doesn't exactly make them the most trustworthy new nation...

 

6) Even when there were only 198 of them left, some of those mutants were amongst the most powerful beings on earth.

 

7) It wasn't that long ago that we all saw first hand how Muslims were treated in the wake of the actions of Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda. Do you think Namor, Magneto, Apocalypse, Vulcan, Sinsiter don't engender similar reactions for the rest of mutant kind?

Nr. 1, and 4-7 can be said about superhumans/aliens too. I think 2 and 3 hit it the best way.

 

Aliens aren't going to make a silent takeover of the planet anytime soon. Would would have to take more or less obvious measures agaisnt us.

Another factor was also noted: They are less limited. Thinking about it, every one who has alien birht powers, rad accident powers or Focus based powers in comics also gets a weakness against something.

Afaik mutants don't have a "Mutant Power Disabling Material". They had to build a extra prision for Magneto. You would just have to catch superman using kryptonite and lock him in a room without windows/red sun light.

[Bloodstone]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Nr. 1' date=' and 4-7 can be said about superhumans/aliens too. I think 2 and 3 hit it the best way.[/quote']

 

I don't know that #1 really applies to other superhumans, because other superhumans don't have a Magneto, Xavier, Scott Summers or Apocalypse that is presumed to speak for them.

 

At best, they have Tony Stark and Steve Rogers and, even after all the stuff that went down during the superhuman civil war, most Americans trust those men. Who wouldn't trust Iron Man and Captain America? By contrast, that Summers fellow is a freak that can kill you just by looking at you and he hangs out with a known terrorist like Magneto...

 

Of course, no one cares if aliens want to secede from the Union. They're not from this plant in the first place

 

#4 Gamma detectors will help you find the Hulk and his kin, but are useless in hunting down Spider-man, Iron Fist or the remaining 95% of the superhuman population. By contrast, I can get a mutant detection kit at the Super-mart.... they sell them next to Stark Technologies pregnancy tests I exaggerate slightly, but mutant hunting technology is readily available, works on all homo sapiens superior and is nearly infallible. This allows you to easily target large groups because they absolutely have something in common. The same is true of aliens of a given race, of course, and we have seen the Skrulls treated similarly by the humans of the MU.... speaking of...

 

Aliens aren't going to make a silent takeover of the planet anytime soon.

 

You didn't read Secret Invasion, did you?

 

Afaik mutants don't have a "Mutant Power Disabling Material". They had to build a extra prision for Magneto. You would just have to catch superman using kryptonite and lock him in a room without windows/red sun light.

 

While they don't have a literal kryptonite, there are a variety of power nullification technologies that only work on targets with active X-Gene. It's the down side of having a single, easily identified genetic marker for your races many and varied abilities.

 

Kryptonite like weaknesses are, on the whole, a bit rarer in the MU than in the DCU though.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

I'm not sure that "instantly evolve" is the right term, but I've made heroes that justified their initial "radiation accidents" like this. It's also how I've always rationalized the radioactive spider bite that turned Puny Peter Parker into the Spectacular Spider-Man.

 

Also, just so I don't fell compelled to rant about this later...

 

 

Virtually,

Bodkins Odds

 

Well, duh. Not in the real world. In a superhero worlds, physics are violated more frequently than a five dollar prostitute. Seriously, 99 percent of superpowers simply DO NOT WORK by the laws of real physics. Growth runs into the square-cube law. Speedsters should have their faces melted off from friction. Every energy projector produces more energy than he takes in, violating the laws of conservation of energy and the laws of thermodynamics. If you're already bending physics into a pretzel, no reason biology shouldn't join it in a game of Ultimate Twister.

[Christopher]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

I don't know that #1 really applies to other superhumans' date=' because other superhumans don't have a Magneto, Xavier, Scott Summers or Apocalypse that is presumed to speak for them.[/quote']

It is good tone for any Superhuman to bring his own, superpowered archnemesis. Superman had a few Superpowered ones. The F4 had Dr. Doom, for example.

So you can't say Mutants have a higher rate of "Wolrd threathening" than any other superhuman group.

 

You didn't read Secret Invasion' date=' did you?[/quote']

Nope, but that is somthign different. And you noticed that they were a visible for silent takeover and "outbreeding" normals.

 

While they don't have a literal kryptonite, there are a variety of power nullification technologies that only work on targets with active X-Gene. It's the down side of having a single, easily identified genetic marker for your races many and varied abilities.

 

Kryptonite like weaknesses are, on the whole, a bit rarer in the MU than in the DCU though.

I especially meant the followign thing (that I best speak out in Hero System terms):

The mutants already have a lot of complciations, simply for being detectable, being hated and the somewhat uncontrolled nature of their powers. That is why they tend to have less in forms of DNCP and Vulnerabilites.

But this overall lack of weaknesses in their actions and powers also makes somewhat them scarier. But the other factors (2 and 3) are more relevant.

[Clonus]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Nr. 1' date=' and 4-7 can be said about superhumans/aliens too.[/quote']

 

Nope

 

1. In the comics, the Fantastic Four, the U-Foes, and the Crimson Ghost and one other Russian are the only people who have ever gotten powers from that particular power source. The U-Foes have never been more than a minor threat. The Russians were a threat because they were communists not because they were part of some kind of league of cosmic rays. The Fantastic Four are well known to have saved the planet from being eaten, and the ways in which they have endangered humanity have never been publicized. The Fantastic Four have _never_ made alliances with cosmic ray villains or accepted them into their number. And on occasion they have had members who had different power sources, including a couple of guys who just used tech and martial arts. They have not defined themselves as a distinct ethnic group with loyalty to said ethnic group that leads them to ignore laws on occasion.

 

4. No. There is no Super Soldier Serum or Transdimensional Woo-Woo detector on the market. Even if there was, it would only detect a very narrow number of characters. A Spider-Man detector would draw a blank on Reed Richards, Deathlok, Iron Fist or Henry Pym and only confirm that they aren't the same thing but 5 very different things. The closest equivalent is Hulk detection technology since there are quite a few gamma people by now...but the gamma people are all mistrusts anyway.

 

5. Superhumans do not rally together. It is true that the radiation accidents have the same ability as mutants to reproduce but there are still comparatively few of them because they have so few original progenitors.

 

6. Yes, that's true. Non Mutants have some very powerful individuals.

 

7. But that isn't. The difference between Doctor Doom and Magneto, Apocalypse or Sinister, is that Doctor Doom never announces that he's striking a blow for physicists who dabble in magic. The Mandarin isn't fighting for bling and those who wear way too much of it. Far from fighting for Asgard, Loki spends more time making trouble for Asgard than he does for humanity. Kang the Conqueror makes no effort to unite time travellers under his banner. Humanity has no idea who Maximus or Mordo even are.

 

 

Another factor was also noted: They are less limited. Thinking about it, every one who has alien birht powers, rad accident powers or Focus based powers in comics also gets a weakness against something.

Afaik mutants don't have a "Mutant Power Disabling Material". They had to build a extra prision for Magneto. You would just have to catch superman using kryptonite and lock him in a room without windows/red sun light.

 

You are making a reference to a pair of movies, one where "mutant" _was_ the only power source and the other where it didn't even exist. In the comics, there are in fact a bunch of mutant neutralizers and nullifiers. In fact in Marvel, mutants are just about the only power source with an achilles heel.

[Bloodstone]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

It is good tone for any Superhuman to bring his own, superpowered archnemesis. Superman had a few Superpowered ones. The F4 had Dr. Doom, for example.

So you can't say Mutants have a higher rate of "Wolrd threathening" than any other superhuman group.

 

When Dr Doom attacks New York and the FF save the day, Dr Doom is seen as just some megalomaniac tyrant looking to expand his power. The FF are seen as the heroes that saved the day.

 

When Magneto attacks New York and the X-men save the day it's seen a s a bunch of dispicable Mutants fighting each other and putting American lives at risk.

 

So yeah, Dr Doom and the FF may be arch foes, but they are recognizably different in the eyes of the public. By the same token, people don't judge Iron Man based on the actions of the Hulk because, while they are both seen as people with super powers, they aren't considered part of a single collective group.

 

But the X-men and Magneto ARE part of the same group. They are all filthy Muties. So when the X-men do a good deed by fighting off the Brotherhood they are just considered part of the problem, not part of the solution. Mutants are a race of monsters, troublemakers, criminals and terrorists! We can't trust 'em one bit. All that fighting is probably just a cover up. Look at how the X-men work with Magneto now! They were probably in cahoots the whole time!

 

It's that sort of thing that kinda sets mutants apart from other superhumans as a whole in the Marvel Universe. That sort of history that makes it somewhat plausible that they are singled out. If there were no Magneto or Apocalypse trying to wipe out humanity so mutants can inherit the earth... nor an Xavier or Summers trying to rally behind a flag of peace, maybe this wouldn't be the case.

 

But when you give off the perception that a race of hundreds of thousands (now only hundreds) of powerful beings have political agendas and a plan to replace humanity, you're going to catch some flack for it.

 

In fact, if Kryptonians suddenly started causing problems on Earth-1, everyone would cast a suspicious eye at Superman too...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_War_of_the_Supermen

[Bloodstone]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

The Mandarin isn't fighting for bling and those who wear way too much of it.

 

LOL!

 

Repped for that and for taking the time to explain my points in further detail

[Hermit]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Mutants want our women folk!

[RexMundi]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Mutants want our women folk!

 

More like our Women Folk hate the Mutant Women. Have you seen how those trashy mutie skanks Dress?!?!!!

 

~Rex

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

In a world where mutants are considered a subset of "people with powers", what could possibly set them apart in such a way as to allow persecution of "mutants" but not other "supers"? Is it even possible to come up with

such a scenario?

 

 

I'm not asking about the logic behind anti-mutant sentiments, but about something else. This isn't a thread about why Marvel has two classes of superpowered beings, one of which (mutants) is judged, often negatively as a whole while the other group is seen as individuals, each deserving to be judged upon his merits. This thread is about how to rationalize such a system in the first place (apart from truckloads of denial).

 

Just thought I'd repeat myself and emphasise something that most of you are overlooking.

 

The question isn't "why is it this way in the Marvel universe?" Rather, the question is "how would you rationalize such a state of affairs where one subset of people with powers is singled out for prejudicial treatment?" In the Marvel universe, the answer seems to be "we've always done it this way". They've paid only minor attention to the whys and wherefores, because their mutant stories are about prejudice, so it's necessary to the story even if, upon examination, the stated reason for discrimination doesn't make sense.

 

In the world I described in the OP, "mutants" were physically distinguishable from "the rest of us" by having characteristics and features that normal humans don't have, and that was combined with a belief that "progressive" traits and features were good, while "regressive" traits and features were "bad".

 

Except by the use of expensive equipment, there is no way to distinguish a "mutant" from any other "super". Until such equipment falls into the hands of Joe Bigot, J.B. has no means of identifying mutants other than guessing or taking the word of people who claim to be mutants. Why should what ought to be a fringe movement (by now) have enough political clout to try getting a "Mutant Discrimination Act" passed by congress without being laughed off the world stage by people who know better?

 

Never mind Marvel. Why would such a movement gain a foothold in the USA when the discriminated-against group is only distinguishable from the not-discriminated-against group by self-identification or the accusations of people who claim to have devices that can "pick them out" of the crowd? Why is this enough justification for discrimination?

 

Likewise, how would you rationalize a world where "mutants" are sufficiently different from everybody else that such discrimination is even possible?

[Gent]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Why would such a movement gain a foothold in the USA when the discriminated-against group is only distinguishable from the not-discriminated-against group by self-identification or the accusations of people who claim to have devices that can "pick them out" of the crowd? Why is this enough justification for discrimination?

 

Likewise, how would you rationalize a world where "mutants" are sufficiently different from everybody else that such discrimination is even possible?

Bloodstone's reasons #2, 3, and 5 probably apply to most non-Marvel worlds. The only reason explicitly contradicted is #4.

[Tasha]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Because it's happening right now to Gays and Lesbians. The only way someone can tell someone is GLBT is if the person ID's as such or does something that a GLBT person would do (ie holding hands and or kissing a same gendered person in public). A fringe group of haters has gotten laws passed to disallow marriage though the federal government. Before GLBT people were an issue African American people felt the same issues (and still do in many cases). Arguably African Americans and GLBT people are way less strange than people who can kill with a look, or read your mind etc.

 

Perhaps a fringe religious group will decide that Mutant powers are akin to Witchcraft and as such are using the powers of Hell. This kind of hysteria could catch on esp if a large number of mutants gain physical mutations that could be thought as Demonic or devil like (Horns, pointed tail, Cloven feet, fire powers etc). Never underestimate people's ability to overreact to those who are different.

 

It can be hard for us who live in cities that have a lots of different races and beliefs to see how the people who live away from those "Others" can be to folk who aren't White, Christian and believe like themselves.

[megaplayboy]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Just a point of clarification: "altered humans" can, do, and have passed mutation down to their children. Franklin Richards is one of the most powerful mutants ever. Future Spidey fathers future Spider-Girl. The "new" Sensational She-Hulk is the offspring of future Thundra and the Hulk, IIRC. etc.

 

Just my own .02, YMMV, etc., but imnsho the whole "mutants are different and persecuted for-evar/emo wangst" thing is now the most tired-ass-trope in all of comic-bookdom. Segregating the MU off into "mutant world" and "Avengers/Spidey/FF world" is a terrible concept to continue. Might have made sense for a while in the 80s/90s, but seriously, give it a rest for a while, guys. I think they should roll with the whole close-knit community/school for gifted youngsters angle, myself, rather than this tired-ass whiny emo BS. Yeah--metaphor for discrimination, blah blah yakety smackety--but it's been done. to. death. Give it a rest, already!

 

/rant

[Greywind]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

There's also the possibility that any child Steve Rogers fathered would be a mutant.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Because it's happening right now to Gays and Lesbians. The only way someone can tell someone is GLBT is if the person ID's as such or does something that a GLBT person would do (ie holding hands and or kissing a same gendered person in public). A fringe group of haters has gotten laws passed to disallow marriage though the federal government. Before GLBT people were an issue African American people felt the same issues (and still do in many cases). Arguably African Americans and GLBT people are way less strange than people who can kill with a look, or read your mind etc.

 

Perhaps a fringe religious group will decide that Mutant powers are akin to Witchcraft and as such are using the powers of Hell. This kind of hysteria could catch on esp if a large number of mutants gain physical mutations that could be thought as Demonic or devil like (Horns, pointed tail, Cloven feet, fire powers etc). Never underestimate people's ability to overreact to those who are different.

 

It can be hard for us who live in cities that have a lots of different races and beliefs to see how the people who live away from those "Others" can be to folk who aren't White, Christian and believe like themselves.

 

I think this post, and a few others, are completely missing the point of the original question.The question isn't "Why do people hate mutants?" It's "Why do people hate Mutants, but not other people who, other than getting their powers in differnt ways, are pretty much exactly like Mutants?" To use the example above, it would be like discriminating against people who were born gay (and yes, I know that in RL all gay people are born that way, but just go with me here), but not against people who become gay later in life. They act the same, they do the same things, the only difference is some were born that way, and some became that way. So why rage against those who were born with it, and not those who acquired it later on? And my response to that is in my first post on this thread. The only way it makes sense is if all actual supers are Mutants, and everybody else relies on tech and/or training.