How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

[Clonus]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

In Marvel canon, Storm used to be basically be a Goddess to her people. Which given her powers, as someone observed, was pretty close to being literally true. She's probably one of the more dangerous mutants in the Marvel universe for the sheer level of havoc she could unleash on the world.

 

That's been my problem with Marvel "Mutant hate". It's too blanket and uniform. I think there would be predjudice but there would be some adoration too, even worship or deification. Humans tend to fears what more powerful and unknown but we also idolize it too.

 

Edit: Maybe this has come up in the X titles. I've never followed them more than casually.

 

The answer is "yes". People who adore mutants or find them "chic" have been included in X-Men continuity.

[phoenix240]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

I've never known an extremely attractive public figure to inspire only hatred and fear. Well, maybe Naomi Campbell...

 

Generally, though, attractive people will have a pretty substantial fan base to offset the "haters". And lots of X-Men happen to be extremely attractive. Not to mention youth counterculture tends to embrace anything remotely rebellious.

 

Very true

[Lucius]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

As someone who doesn't read comics very much, perhaps I'm not entitled to an opinion. (I'm more likely to gain insight here than to offer it.)

 

But while it seems to me that "mutant hysteria" works as a metaphor for both racial prejudice and prejudice about sexual orientation, I can't help comparing it to bigotry towards Jews.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I have encountered bigotry towards palindromedaries, but not very often.

[RexMundi]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

As someone who doesn't read comics very much, perhaps I'm not entitled to an opinion. (I'm more likely to gain insight here than to offer it.)

 

But while it seems to me that "mutant hysteria" works as a metaphor for both racial prejudice and prejudice about sexual orientation, I can't help comparing it to bigotry towards Jews.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I have encountered bigotry towards palindromedaries, but not very often.

 

That's actually a good way to look at Mutant Hate. Hence why I like hearing from the non Comic orientated because more often then not they are not already pre biased by their comic preference.

 

~Rex

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

I think a rationale for mutant-specific hysteria could work in a setting where the thing causing genetic mutation was viewed as sinister or outright horrible. Like contamination by Chthulhu Mythos entities that slowly strips away the mutants' humanity and turns them into something alien.

[RexMundi]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Or the entire original premise of the X-Men comics back in the beginnings of the Nuclear is Bad! movement?

 

~Rex

[megaplayboy]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

I think a rationale for mutant-specific hysteria could work in a setting where the thing causing genetic mutation was viewed as sinister or outright horrible. Like contamination by Chthulhu Mythos entities that slowly strips away the mutants' humanity and turns them into something alien.

 

Isn't that pretty much the premise in Aberrant--continued use of superpowers gradually turns characters into something, well, aberrant.

[RexMundi]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Isn't that pretty much the premise in Aberrant--continued use of superpowers gradually turns characters into something' date=' well, aberrant.[/quote']

 

Abusing it does, but it's a lead in to the Trinity Stuff as well.

 

~Rex

[phoenix240]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

As someone who doesn't read comics very much, perhaps I'm not entitled to an opinion. (I'm more likely to gain insight here than to offer it.)

 

But while it seems to me that "mutant hysteria" works as a metaphor for both racial prejudice and prejudice about sexual orientation, I can't help comparing it to bigotry towards Jews.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I have encountered bigotry towards palindromedaries, but not very often.

 

That's an interesting idea and given Magneto's background a solid one, IMO.

[phoenix240]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Isn't that pretty much the premise in Aberrant--continued use of superpowers gradually turns characters into something' date=' well, aberrant.[/quote']

 

If you abuse it or rush to power yeah, but you REALLY had to push to go over the edge. It really felt tacked on to explain the lead up to the Trinity era where almost all Novas (supers) were Aberrant monsters. And what's a White Wolf game without a Power Corrupts Damnation Meter?

[RexMundi]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Heh, very true.

 

~Rex

[Cygnia]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

I remember, back in ancient times (the 80's), even as a kid the double standard irked me. I had an idea for a series (and, let's be honest, we all had ideas for comics as kids ) that was going to poke at that issue. I had my Superman-Batman pastiche that everyone loved -- a true blue hero, last survivor of a noble alien race, chin you could park a Buick on, insert every cliche here. People tended to overlook the fact that he went through sidekicks like Spinal Tap went through drummers, but they just blamed that on his rogues' gallery. But he SINGLE-HANDEDLY drove back every alien threat before they could even lay one foot or claw or tentacle on Earthen soil!

 

He went out of his way to be the only guy taking down super-powered threats on the planet (well, in areas that actually matter in terms of PR) and he kept disparaging the X-Men pastiche Earth-born mutant team every chance he could get. Didn't help that these mutants weren't the "pretty sort" either. The PR machine was in full effect.

 

And then my mutants did some investigating of their own and managed to gain access (in governmental custody) to the one major villain of Superjerk who actually still survived. This Luthor pastiche had a backdoor deal with the government about designing high tech black ops weaponry in exchange for protecting him against SuperJerk. And, boy did he have some beans to spill (Faux!Luthor was going to be revealed as the grandfather of one of the younger mutants and he felt it was time to come clean in order to protect him and oh yeah, the planet as well).

 

Turns out SuperJerk wasn't the last of his people. In fact, on his planet, he was a sadistic war criminal. And all those supposed alien invasion attempts were intergalactic peacekeeping authorities trying to bring him back to justice. SuperJerk treated the Earth like it was his own banana republic, trying to make the Earth solely dependent on him only and would do anything to take out any threats to his comfort. Like, say, any mutant from Earth. Or any sidekick who got too close to the truth.

 

And the last kicker? SuperJerk was a mutant back on HIS planet.

[RexMundi]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Nice! And a good Reason for Mutie Hate!

 

~Rex

[Greywind]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

So while I doubt Tony Stark would actually join the X-men and it's doubtful Scott Summers is ever going to try and recruit him... I'd say there's a chance he could make it on the team.

X-Men Legends II

[Spidey88]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

If you abuse it or rush to power yeah' date=' but you REALLY had to push to go over the edge. It really felt tacked on to explain the lead up to the Trinity era where almost all Novas (supers) were Aberrant monsters. And what's a White Wolf game without a Power Corrupts Damnation Meter?[/quote']

 

Amusingly enough, I got my copy of 5th edition Hero from a guy who was offloading his for dirt cheap. Seems he couldn't get over the fact that by default, characters using superpowers weren't slowly corrupted and made broken/evil - and he wouldn't really listen to my claims that "but dude - you can totally use these rules to build that if you want to!"

 

Oh well. The bug up his nose resulted in my gain.

[phoenix240]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Amusingly enough, I got my copy of 5th edition Hero from a guy who was offloading his for dirt cheap. Seems he couldn't get over the fact that by default, characters using superpowers weren't slowly corrupted and made broken/evil - and he wouldn't really listen to my claims that "but dude - you can totally use these rules to build that if you want to!"

 

Oh well. The bug up his nose resulted in my gain.

 

Oh that's hilarious

[Alverant]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

It would be like disliking people who inherited their money but not lottery winners or "self-made millionaires". Oh wait. People actually do that.

Well how did those people get their money? Lotto winners took a chance and played. "Self-made millionaires" took a chance and did something to get the money. Trust fund babies ... well they were born. They didn't do anything to become rich. They didn't work or take a gamble or anything. (There's also the belief that those who inherited money don't understand the value of money. A belief supported by certain children of rich people who are famous just because they're rich.)

 

Mutants are the same way. In most other origins the superhuman took an active role. They made a choice that eventually led them to getting powers. Even if that choice was something incidental like taking a janitorial job at a lab then accidentally getting exposed to weird Science. Even Bulldozer did something to "earn" his powers. But like trust fund babies, mutants were born with their powers. They didn't do anything to get them. Anyone can be a mutant. You don't know if getting into an argument with someone will make their latent mutant power erupt and make your body explode into a million pieces. You can do tests for mutants before their powers manifest. Except for innate magical talent, you can't do that with other superhero origins.

 

Mutants are also a collective origin where there is only one way to get your powers. Radiation accidents can happen for a thousand different reasons, but only mutants have the passive role of the individual. (Aliens also took an active role in getting their powers. Even if such powers are inherent to their species, they did take an active role in coming to Earth.) I guess the same would apply to magical creatures as well, but they haven't formed an alliance dictating that they should rule because of their superiority.

 

Mutants get their powers from their genetic code which came from their parents. In many cultures a deformed baby signals the mother did something wrong and the baby is the manifestation of that sin. Mutants can be seen in a similar light. Parents see their children as a reflection on themselves. If a child does well, it's a sign they did their job as parents. If a child becomes a criminal, the parents get blamed. Mutants can be seen as a sign the parents made a mistake.

 

As mentioned before, mutants are the only group of superhumans who have banded together under a common origin. OK, there are some others like Devil's Advocates and Sunburst's crew which also have a common origin, but they're not as big and don't have membership requirements limited to "Are you a ___? Do you want to join? If you said yes to both, you're in!"

 

Mutants also stay hidden. Like in politics, it's not the actual wrong but the cover-up that gets people angry. Even if the muties have a good reason to hide, they are still hiding.

 

Mutants don't do anything to become mutants. Anyone can be a mutant even if they don't know it. And their numbers are growing. No other origin of superhumans can say that. That is part of why mutants are singled out.

[Starcloud]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Honestly, in a setting where there are multiple ways of getting superpowers, the ONLY way to distinguish between a mutant and a superhuman of a different origin, would be genetically. And that's only if there's an identifiable set of "supergenes" that cannot be activated through scientific experimentation.

 

In short, Marvel's take on "mutants" is impossibly unrealistic and is there pretty much only to play on teenager's fears of being considered "different."

[Clonus]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Honestly' date=' in a setting where there are multiple ways of getting superpowers, the ONLY way to distinguish between a mutant and a superhuman of a different origin, would be genetically. t."[/quote']

 

No, there's another way. Know the origin story. People know the Fantastic Four aren't mutants because they know how and when the FF got their powers. They know about the supersoldier serum, pym particles, that Thor is some kind of alien, that Iron Man is just a crunchy in a can.

 

I mean seriously people manage to be prejudiced against Jews even when many of them don't have the stereotypical traits and there are people out there with big noses who aren't Jews.

[Alverant]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Honestly, in a setting where there are multiple ways of getting superpowers, the ONLY way to distinguish between a mutant and a superhuman of a different origin, would be genetically. And that's only if there's an identifiable set of "supergenes" that cannot be activated through scientific experimentation.

 

In short, Marvel's take on "mutants" is impossibly unrealistic and is there pretty much only to play on teenager's fears of being considered "different."

I disagree. If your 14 year old daughter suddenly starts excreting blue slime from her pores, I doubt anyone would blame exposure to cosmic radiation or magic.

 

Mutants get their powers for no apparent reason. Other origins have a clear cause-effect relationship. That's how you tell the difference.

[Bloodstone]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

I disagree. If your 14 year old daughter suddenly starts excreting blue slime from her pores' date=' I doubt anyone would blame exposure to cosmic radiation or magic.[/quote']

 

Well, when they take said daughter to the the doctor, the doc's going to run some tests and then break it to them that this is apparently a totally natural thing for her, since she's not quite one of us...

 

But before that happens, someone might blame some external stimuli like cosmic rays, magic or being bitten by a mongoose...

 

There have been mutants that thought their powers came from external sources before, as well as altered humans that thought they might be mutants.

 

Cloak and Dagger were initially cast as altered humans/mutates, then were believed to be mutants and finally were confirmed (rather recently) by Dr Nemesis to be altered humans. Kinda the same story with the Mimic too as I recall. His origin story casts him as an altered human, the X-men thought he was a mutant and subsequent writers have occasionally treated him as such, despite the fact he's not.

 

By contrast, Polaris grew to adulthood as a latent mutant, her only apparent mutation being green hair (which she always dyed). She only gained her powers after a deliberate "radiation accident" via Mesmero's "mutant energy stimulator"

[FrankL]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

Must spread rep on Cygnia. Can someone whack him for me?

[David Blue]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

In a world where mutants are considered a subset of "people with powers"' date=' what could possibly set them apart in such a way as to allow persecution of "mutants" but not other "supers"? Is it even possible to come up with such a scenario?[/quote']

 

I'm not asking about the logic behind anti-mutant sentiments' date=' but about something else. This isn't a thread about why Marvel has two classes of superpowered beings, one of which (mutants) is judged, often negatively as a whole while the other group is seen as individuals, each deserving to be judged upon his merits. This thread is about how to rationalize such a system in the first place (apart from truckloads of denial).[/quote']

 

I'd start by assuming that mutants have been growing, at least in America, since some experiments got out of hand (with no immediate, visible results) in World War I. A few mutants won fame in World War II, a few have been crime-fighters and a few more have been villains, but most have been distinctly low-powered.

 

Mutants in my world would grind against humanity in five ways:

 

1. Romance

2. Fertility

3. Crime

4. Turf

5. Politics

 

Romance

 

Mutants are highly interesting to humans, but generally they are only interested in each other. In every human-mutant relationship, the human gets the short end of the stick, but powerful mutant boys still have no trouble moving in on weaker human boys when they want to while the time away with an easy lay.

 

Phoenix dies, and Cyclops marries a human who looks exactly like her, declaring that it's her and her alone, in her human weakness (oops uniqueness) that he loves. It's the Wedding of the Century. Phoenix returns, and Cyclops dumps the human the same day, getting back with his real, mutant wife. Mutant lawyers cover for this - mutants are always standing up for each other. There are plenty of incidents like this.

 

Fertility

 

Mutants are highly fertile. In any area where their breeding is not obstructed, they demographically overhaul even the most fertile branches of humanity. And they group together when they can, dominating areas. They do not disperse and allow their fertility to decline.

 

Children of mutant-human pairings are often showcased in the mass media to show that all is well between humans and mutant-kind, but actually such children are very rare and practically always sterile. In any case they tend to be pushed out of the family by any mutant children, who are more powerful, more aggressive, not inclined to sympathy with humans, and highly inclined to support each other.

 

Crime

 

Most mutants are law-abiding, as both the mass media and all political parties constantly emphasize. However, good and bad, hero and villain, they are extremely reluctant to let mutants face ("prejudiced") human justice. They have informal but binding laws of their own that forbid reporting crimes by mutants to humans, acting as witnesses against mutants to humans, and so on. Punishment is within the community, and when humans see it at all it looks remarkably light - yet the punishment for crimes against mutant laws, either within the community, or informally when non-mutants offend against mutants, is intimidatingly severe.

 

Must of the crime that mutants won't help non-mutants punish is impossible for non-mutants to do anything about without mutant help. For some strange reason, every mutant with mind control, telepathy or similar powers is rich, by perfectly legal means. And there are a lot of them, and they can pass for human, and they generally do, unless you know who their parents are.

 

Mutant crime is generally backed by powers, and has a characteristic disregard for human life. The pervasiveness of violent victimization of humans by mutants is such that there is not only "white flight" but "yellow flight", "brown flight" and "black flight".

 

Turf

 

When mutants move into a neighborhood, they do so to dominate it. Any humans that remain do so on the terms of their mutant neighbors.

 

What applies to neighborhoods also applies to businesses, industries and political parties. As soon as they can, mutants start hiring and promoting each other. The path upward becomes closed to humans, except those few who are happy to act as front-men for mutant causes.

 

Politics

 

Mutants discuss all kinds of political opinions, like anyone else. They advertise their differences of opinion, and always deny they are a block, calling it a libel. However they vote for each other at 96+% rates, and when no mutant is on the bill they vote for whoever most plausibly promises more power for mutants (and less for humans). All plans to induce mutants to vote otherwise fail.

 

Since a lot of mutant powers are invisible, even if minor, even thinking about organizing politically against mutants can get you punished in ways you'll never know about even after it happens. (Also, if you work somewhere you can't avoid encountering people who may be mutants, and you have any thoughts a mutant would not like to see in your head, anything bad that happens in your life, including your dog getting run over, really may be mutant action. You'll never know.)

 

In power, mutant politicians show competence, aggressiveness and a great love of suing anybody (or at least any non-mutants) who criticize them. They also show solidarity with each other, and zero stewardship for any other group. They talk up their patriotism, as all politicians do, but their actual agenda is never wider than mutant prosperity, and often it boils down to mutant domination. They generally push for affirmative action and other special programs for the talented (meaning mutants, and a sprinkling of humans for window dressing), and they try to reduce or eliminate all other forms of welfare - for the general good of course. Welfare as needed for us, better luck next incarnation for you.

 

No matter how cruelly humans feel they’ve been treated and no matter how badly they say they've been harmed, they greater issue as far as mutants are concerned is always humanity's anti-mutant prejudice. "Good" or "bad", organized mutant-kind is always on the lookout for human prejudice against mutants (but never the opposite).

 

"Good" and "bad" mutants alike are unanimous that any kind of anti-mutant plan such as a Sentinel program is unacceptable. Instead, the best offer of the "good" mutants is that mankind can go on (how is not obvious, given the demographic pressure, which is increasing) under the informal protection of the good mutants.

 

Now: how popular should mutants like this logically be, with humans?

 

Further: suppose that the main super-hero groups were almost all non-mutant - a family of super-scientific explorers, say, and the Vindicators, made up Set, God of Storms, the defrosted legend of World War II Sergeant America, the battle-suit hero known as the Golden Man, and so on. Suppose that there were a couple of high powered mutants in that team, but they were known for being in relationships where the non-mutant partner did not get the short end of the stick, and they disregarded the "rules" on not helping non-mutants to convict mutants, and they weathered and ignored the hostility of other mutants over that, and so on. Would those Vindicators really have much trouble being seen as Vindicators rather than as mutants?

[Ghost Archer]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

My answer to the original post is this, mutants can be lumped together in a universally accepted term, mutant. Non-mutants supers can be a wide variety of beings, aliens, man-in-a-can, spider bite victim, whatever but they are not easily pigeonholed under a single label. It is much simpler to hate someone with a readily identifiable classification. Our world, right now, has examples of what I mean. When I say Muslim, what is the first thing most people think? Terrorist. And conversely, all terrorists are Muslim. Look in the paper, well, read on the computer, this is the way everyday people think. Publicity is the reason mutants are singled out as a group. As Mrs. Archer, in TV News for 20 years always said “If it bleeds, it leads” and the more sensational the better. Every single western news source feeds the public with crap that tells them ALL Muslims are terrorists and ALL terrorists as Muslim. Guess what, people believe it just as they would believe all Mutants are evil.

[RexMundi]

Re: How can mutants be discriminated against while other "supers" get a pass?

 

My answer to the original post is this' date=' mutants can be lumped together in a universally accepted term, mutant. Non-mutants supers can be a wide variety of beings, aliens, man-in-a-can, spider bite victim, whatever but they are not easily pigeonholed under a single label. It is much simpler to hate someone with a readily identifiable classification. Our world, right now, has examples of what I mean. When I say Muslim, what is the first thing most people think? Terrorist. And conversely, all terrorists are Muslim. Look in the paper, well, read on the computer, this is the way everyday people think. Publicity is the reason mutants are singled out as a group. As Mrs. Archer, in TV News for 20 years always said “If it bleeds, it leads” and the more sensational the better. Every single western news source feeds the public with crap that tells them ALL Muslims are terrorists and ALL terrorists as Muslim. Guess what, people believe it just as they would believe all Mutants are evil.[/size']

 

Excellent Post, haves some Rep. If Folks have issues visualizing that, I would say, just hop over to any political thread, and replace "political party" with the word Mutant, and the name Rush Limbaugh, with Magneto. Hate, is EASY to stir up.....Rage even more so, just try driving somewhere in Ohio.

 

~Rex