Cheshire Cat question

[quozaxx]

Cheshire Cat has a Teleportation Power with a Trigger

 

Aren't there implications of that ?

 

 

Doesn't his present power breaks 2 rules?

 

One cannot abort to the use of a power.

An attack action ends the characters phase.

 

The power as listed would enable Cat to :

1/2 action move up to someone.

1/2 action attack them.

1/2 action move away again.

ie by defining it as a trigger he gains an extra 1/2 action each phase which he can use so that an attack action does not end his phase.

 

Allowing Abort to a power.

Cat could 1/2 action move, 1/2 action attack, ending his phase.

Then in someone else's phase as they go to hit him he activates a power in his free 1/2 action and moves out of reach giving himself effectively a 100% invulnerability.

 

But if one can abort to a power in someone else turn why not any power. He aborts to an energy blast to get an extra attack, or he aborts to a movement power which has usable on others, or aborts to a change environment to add a skill check, or abort to desolid or darkness.

 

(Note: paraphrased from a player's question)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

Is this regarding the 5e or 6e version of the character?

[RexMundi]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

I don't recall a triggered Teleport on the 5e one .....Gate....no trigger though. Haven't seen a 6e version yet. Been avoiding the villain books.

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

Even if your trigger is a "Action that takes not time", you still need to beat the enemy in a DEX contest or you have to trigger it while aborting (no dex contest, but phase lost) to avoid an attack.

I think we recently had taht in the rules question.

 

And even for "hit and use trigger to get out of range" things, the gm might require you to wait for the next segment, your Dex before you can Trigger without problems.

 

Addendum:

Found the rulesquestion in noted

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

I'm not sure of the specific power build. Assuming activating the trigger is an action that takes no time, CC would be able to move up, attack, then Trigger a move away. That's a pretty steep advantage - how far can he actually move with the Triggered power? Does it reset automatically?

 

With a similar construct, a character could half move in, attack normally, then trigger a similarly advantaged Attack power, getting two attacks plus a half move - would that be less of a concern somehow?

[Christopher]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

With a similar construct' date=' a character could half move in, attack normally, then trigger a similarly advantaged Attack power, getting two attacks plus a half move - would that be less of a concern somehow?[/quote']

I asuemd you could trigger an attack action as action taht takes no time, without ending your phase.

 

And yes, I think it is less of a problem as it can't help you to reliably avoid attacks by moving 4m to the side.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

I asuemd you could trigger an attack action as action taht takes no time, without ending your phase.

 

And yes, I think it is less of a problem as it can't help you to reliably avoid attacks by moving 4m to the side.

 

If you plan on using the trigger to avoid attacks, you need to Trigger the movement in conjunction with an attack currently being made. That sounds a lot like a Dive for Cover to me. Based on the rules question you link to, I could see allowing:

 

- a Dive for Cover without the need to Abort, as the Trigger can be triggered at any time. But you must make the roll, and you end up needing a half phase to recover from the disorienting result of DFC (ie you are "prone").

 

- moving before the attack is declared - ie before the attacker commits to an attack

 

- attempting to move as the attack is fired, requiring either a DEX rolloff or an Abort in accordance with the rules question answer (and, for the latter, meaning you must meet the requirements of Aborting including not already having acted in the segment and losing your next phase)

 

Like most abilities, I see a Triggered Teleport as powerful, but not unstoppable, like most Triggered abilities.

[Arkham]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

I'm not sure of the specific power build. Assuming activating the trigger is an action that takes no time, CC would be able to move up, attack, then Trigger a move away. That's a pretty steep advantage - how far can he actually move with the Triggered power? Does it reset automatically?

 

With a similar construct, a character could half move in, attack normally, then trigger a similarly advantaged Attack power, getting two attacks plus a half move - would that be less of a concern somehow?

 

Given that a character can multiple-power-attack anyway, then yes, it is less of a concern.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

I believe it's in the Champions Powers book...and it does reset automatically

[Epic Legand]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

If this works the way I think it does, he's playing a 1X mod on his power, and thats what hes buying. DM can overcome by multi atticking, or area attacking. Plus whats the trigger? "When attacked, move 4 m to the right...inside wall? Plus if its before being attacked, how does he know, does he have danger sense?...more points spent. Mean while the other guy has the same number of points spent to make his attack that much more deadly. Ya its a cool power, but no way is it overpowering.

[RexMundi]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

Yeah it's harmless. One of my players has something similar on his character in my 50's arc. He ran afoul of the badguy with duplication, they played infinite Ping Pong with him for a session.

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

If this works the way I think it does' date=' he's playing a 1X mod on his power, and thats what hes buying. DM can overcome by multi atticking, or area attacking. Plus whats the trigger? "When attacked, move 4 m to the right...inside wall?[/quote']

I would think "Just willing it to happen", with no set direction.We have also no idea about how far this goes, how high the DEX is and what senses Chessire Cat has.

And in the worst you can always buy additional senses for a single trigger with a -2 discount.

[patransom]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

To help inform the discussion, this is the exact power that Cheshire Cat has in 6E Villains Volume 2:

 

22 Staying Out Of Reach: Teleportation 10m, Position Shift, Trigger (whenever he wants to after performing an attack, activating Trigger takes no time, resetting Trigger is a Zero Phase Action; +¾), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½)

 

The text discussion of his powers makes it clear the intent of this power is for him to teleport up to someone, attack, then teleport away. Whether this "breaks" the rule that attacking ends your phase, I'm not sure. He did pay the modifier to have the trigger take no time...

 

IMO, whether it technically breaks the rules or not, it's not overpowered. Compare it to a speedster using a move by. He comes from far away, hits you, and ends up far away from you. Unlike CC, he has to move through the intervening space, but he also probably paid less than 22 points for the 10m of movement he used after he hit you.

[phoenix240]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

To help inform the discussion, this is the exact power that Cheshire Cat has in 6E Villains Volume 2:

 

22 Staying Out Of Reach: Teleportation 10m, Position Shift, Trigger (whenever he wants to after performing an attack, activating Trigger takes no time, resetting Trigger is a Zero Phase Action; +¾), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½)

 

The text discussion of his powers makes it clear the intent of this power is for him to teleport up to someone, attack, then teleport away. Whether this "breaks" the rule that attacking ends your phase, I'm not sure. He did pay the modifier to have the trigger take no time...

 

IMO, whether it technically breaks the rules or not, it's not overpowered. Compare it to a speedster using a move by. He comes from far away, hits you, and ends up far away from you. Unlike CC, he has to move through the intervening space, but he also probably paid less than 22 points for the 10m of movement he used after he hit you.

 

The Speedster also suffers manuever modifiers and most likely spends Endurance. If that ability works as an instant 0 Endurance "Dive for Cover" that's a very poweful effect.

[Christopher]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

The Speedster also suffers manuever modifiers and most likely spends Endurance. If that ability works as an instant 0 Endurance "Dive for Cover" that's a very poweful effect.

No.

 

The Trigger is clearly:

"Whenever he wants to after performing an attack". So defensive use is impossible beyond "get 10 m away and back on your feet" after attacking someone. It could be a potential problem when combined with Martial Maneuvers like Sacrifice Throw (who let the attacker fall too), but otherwise this is not that different from a Move-By with lesser penalties and no Damage like you can do it with HSMA.

 

Even if he could use it to port away from a attack he can only do it once. Resetting the Trigger is a 0-Phase action and can thus only be performed when he has or aborts a phase, and while abotring only if the GM allows it (as a "defensive action" that does not breaks game balance).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

To help inform the discussion, this is the exact power that Cheshire Cat has in 6E Villains Volume 2:

 

22 Staying Out Of Reach: Teleportation 10m, Position Shift, Trigger (whenever he wants to after performing an attack, activating Trigger takes no time, resetting Trigger is a Zero Phase Action; +¾), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½)

 

The text discussion of his powers makes it clear the intent of this power is for him to teleport up to someone, attack, then teleport away. Whether this "breaks" the rule that attacking ends your phase, I'm not sure. He did pay the modifier to have the trigger take no time...

 

IMO, whether it technically breaks the rules or not, it's not overpowered. Compare it to a speedster using a move by. He comes from far away, hits you, and ends up far away from you. Unlike CC, he has to move through the intervening space, but he also probably paid less than 22 points for the 10m of movement he used after he hit you.

 

To me, this is a power construct designed to permit CC to move after an attack. It does so in a perfectly legal manner by the rules as written. As I read the Trigger, whenever CC makes an attack, he can either Trigger this ability and teleport up to 10m away, with Position Shift (a neat combo if he uses an "attacker falls" maneuver to attack) or he can stay where he is. He can't trigger it again until he attacks again. This is an interesting ability, with the potential for significant benefits in the right circumstances. Is it more useful than, say, 4 skill levels with his martial arts, or +5 DCV, only if he attacked in his most recent phase? These "plain vanilla" abilities would cost less than 22 points.

 

The Speedster also suffers manuever modifiers and most likely spends Endurance. If that ability works as an instant 0 Endurance "Dive for Cover" that's a very poweful effect.

 

OK, first off, any movement power at 0 end is a 0 END Dive for Cover, so that's a red herring IMO.

 

It's not a "Dive for Cover" anyway. You have to dive for cover after the attack is declared. CC can only trigger this movement after he attacks, not immediately before his opponent attacks, so he cannot use it to dive for cover.

 

The Speedster can invest 10 points in +2 levels with Move By (3 points each so 6 points) and +2 OCV with Move By, which will wipe out penalties for a single target move by attack. That leaves him 12 points to spend as he sees fit. He could buy 120 END, which mitigates any END issue you perceive. CC already has teleportation powers, so both he and the speedster pay for their main movement powers separate from this ancillary ability to end combat a distance from their target.

 

Finally, so what if he could dive for cover? He would have spent 22 points to be allowed to DFC without aborting. He still has to make the roll, remain within his (pretty limited) movement distance and end up prone (he falls prone after moving, so Position Shift won't avoid that). And, if he wants to move before being attacked, he still either has to abort, or he has to win the opposed DEX check.

[phoenix240]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

OK, first off, any movement power at 0 end is a 0 END Dive for Cover, so that's a red herring IMO.

 

That does cost a phase and requires no roll, doesn't leave you prone? Pesonaly I always charged Endurance for the movement used in Dive for Cover. The Speedster also risks taking some damage from a Move By/Through.

 

Edit: and somewhat reduced damage (str/2 as base).

 

The I put"Dive for Cover" in quotes to indicate that's not exactly what it is but it was the most similar: Evading an attack my moving out of the way/not being where it hits.

 

IF that effect (or was intended to) let CC move out of the way of an attack automatically with no roll required in a manner similar too a Dive for Cover except with none of the drawback (and a 0 phase or No Time action) that seem awfully powerful for 22 pts.

 

Hopefully that's not how it works or would work.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

OK' date=' first off, any movement power at 0 end is a 0 END Dive for Cover, so that's a red herring IMO. [/quote']

 

That does cost a phase and requires no roll?

 

One issue at a time. The 0 END issue, to me, is a red herring. I discussed a number of other issues as well. He paid 22 points - can we agree he should get some benefit? I suspect he already had 10 m T Port at 0 END with Position Shifty elsewhere on his sheet.

 

[ASIDE: Is that costing right? TPort 10 m is 10 points x 2.25 = 22 - where is the Position Shift paid for?]

 

If you want to use movement specifically to avoid an attack in progress (something CC's trigger can't do as he can Trigger only after he makes an attack, not as his opponent launches an attack), that's a dive for cover anyway. If my opponent is about to attack, so I move without DFC, nothing prevents him from re-targeting his attack. All the trigger permits CC to do is to move up to 10 meters immediately after he attacks. It does not permit him to routinely avoid the possibility of retaliation. It provides him a 10 meter move after he attacks, with no advantage other than covering that distance and recovering from being prone due to position shift.

 

Now, if he can bounce in and out of an indestructible barrier, that's pretty powerful, but I doubt he routinely has an indestructible barrier to bounce in and out of.

 

The more I look at the construct, the more I think it's a great way to force the players to think about a more dynamic combat environment than "I hit him, he hits me, repeat until someone falls down". To me, that's a good thing.

[Christopher]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

Now' date=' if he can bounce in and out of an indestructible barrier, that's pretty powerful, but I doubt he routinely has an indestructible barrier to bounce in and out of.[/quote']

And even if, the enemy might be smart enough to hold his action...

[patransom]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

[ASIDE: Is that costing right? TPort 10 m is 10 points x 2.25 = 22 - where is the Position Shift paid for?]

 

I copied and pasted right from the pdf, so yeah, it looks like either the point cost is wrong or he shouldn't have Position Shift on the ability. He should have paid 34 points for it, if it has Position Shift (and his main teleport has position shift, so...). Of course, that's not the only error in the book. It's not even the only error on CC's character sheet...

 

Comparing it again to the speedster: for 5 points the speedster can buy Passing Strike from HSMA. For that, he gets his full STR damage (same as CC), plus +1 OCV (which CC doesn't get with his trick), plus +v/10 damage (which CC also doesn't get). With the points he's saved, he can buy a lot of 0 END on his movement.

[RexMundi]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

Once fixed so that it's error free that's a nice power there. I'd be OK with it.

 

~Rex....says it's a lock.

[Ice9]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

From the way it's written, it can only be used to move after attacking - so pretty much, it's just a Move-by. For 18 less points, a speedster could get Passing Strike and actually get a bonus on Move-by.

Even if it could be used to (effectively) Dive for Cover ... there's Flying Dodge. Which does the same thing, for 5 points, except potentially a much greater distance. And gives you a DCV bonus for doing so.

[Christopher]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

From the way it's written' date=' it can only be used to move after attacking - so pretty much, it's just a Move-by. For 18 less points, a speedster could get Passing Strike and actually get a [i']bonus[/i] on Move-by.

A OCV Bonus, +v/10 Damage, No halving of your STR and no "Recieve 1/3 of your damage".

 

Even if it could be used to (effectively) Dive for Cover ... there's Flying Dodge. Which does the same thing' date=' for 5 points, except potentially a much greater distance. And gives you a DCV bonus for doing so.[/quote']

Adn you don't end up prone. And you recieve +4 DCV if you used a held action.

[Christopher]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

I think you could save a lot of points from the CC writeup if you just made it a Naked Advantage to Teleportation (unless it is already in a Framwork, of course).

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Cheshire Cat question

 

Cheshire Cat has a Teleportation Power with a Trigger

 

Aren't there implications of that ?

 

 

Doesn't his present power breaks 2 rules?

 

One cannot abort to the use of a power.

An attack action ends the characters phase.

 

The power as listed would enable Cat to :

1/2 action move up to someone.

1/2 action attack them.

1/2 action move away again.

ie by defining it as a trigger he gains an extra 1/2 action each phase which he can use so that an attack action does not end his phase.

 

Allowing Abort to a power.

Cat could 1/2 action move, 1/2 action attack, ending his phase.

Then in someone else's phase as they go to hit him he activates a power in his free 1/2 action and moves out of reach giving himself effectively a 100% invulnerability.

 

But if one can abort to a power in someone else turn why not any power. He aborts to an energy blast to get an extra attack, or he aborts to a movement power which has usable on others, or aborts to a change environment to add a skill check, or abort to desolid or darkness.

 

(Note: paraphrased from a player's question)

 

This doesn't break the rules because trigger is an advantage which allows for you to change powers mechanics. Remember (and this took me awhile to grasp), there are general rules which are always in effect unless the special rule changes it. Then the special rule of course trumps it.