Religion in Science-Fiction?

[Christopher]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I admit this bit does annoy me' date=' but what bothers me more about midichlorians is that they're hereditary, or at least random. You are born with this innate supernatural ability that, while you have to be trained to use it, 99% of the rest of the population will never even have that chance. I tend to prefer stories where heroes succeed through intelligence or dedication, regardless of (or even in spite of) some special bloodline or birthright. YMMV.[/quote']

You forget that the force affects (and can be affected) by just about anyone. The jedi just have a more direct access to it, enabling them to do amazing things.

 

And both the original movies and the games/eu show that even non-force users can still be pretty awsome.

In the two Thrawn Trilogies we have Thrawn/his double, Han, Lando, Genth, Karrde, Acbar and dozen others who "just rock" in their respecitve fields without having any strong connection to the force.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Honestly...no it doesn't. It's only a matter of time before somebody incorporates quantum entanglement into a religion. Scientology was an outgrowth of Reich.

 

In a way, it does....well, at least in regards to "traditional" religion (from our point of view).

[Mister E]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Well' date=' it also makes a complete hash of the Force as this spiritual-religious thing.[/quote']

 

Either is does or it doesn't.

 

Honestly...no it doesn't.

 

That excludes all possible results of inquiry that suggest it does.

 

It's only a matter of time before somebody incorporates quantum entanglement into a religion.

 

... making a complete hash of quantum entanglement as this non-spiritual/non-religious thing.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

mmm....hash.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Honestly...no it doesn't. It's only a matter of time before somebody incorporates quantum entanglement into a religion. Scientology was an outgrowth of Reich.

 

Well, this guy has already tried to something similar with regards to alternative medicine.

Chopra has been criticized for his frequent references to the relationship of quantum mechanics to healing processes....

 

Riiight....

[Clonus]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

In a way' date=' it does....well, at least in regards to "traditional" religion (from our point of view).[/quote']

 

Yeah but we aren't talking about traditional religion. We're talking about science fiction religion. The Force is an "energy field". There are people out there who worship UFOs. I was just working on a planet where in crust , there's a hundred-mile deep layer of electromagnetically active crystal encircling the entire planet that pokes up in places in stonehenge-like circles of standing stones and after everyone at a installation that tried to mine it died mysteriously...you better believe there were people who started worshipping it.

[Mister E]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Yeah but we aren't talking about traditional religion. We're talking about science fiction religion. The Force is an "energy field". There are people out there who worship UFOs. I was just working on a planet where in crust ' date=' there's a hundred-mile deep layer of electromagnetically active crystal encircling the entire planet that pokes up in places in stonehenge-like circles of standing stones and after everyone at a installation that tried to mine it died mysteriously...you better believe there were people who started worshipping it.[/quote']

 

On the topic of 'worship as religion', in Hinduism worship is only one of several different forms of yoga: bhakti yoga.

 

Bhakti yoga has 9 components [in suggested game terms]:

 

1) śravaṇa ("listening" to the scriptural stories) [KS: Divine Scriptures]

 

2) kīrtana ("praising," usually refers to ecstatic group singing) [PS: Ecstatic Group Singing]

 

3) smaraṇa ("remembering" or fixing the mind on divinity) ["divine" defensive mental combat maneuvers]

 

4) pāda-sevana (rendering service) [Favors performed for Divinity]

 

5) arcana (worshiping an image) [Psychological Complication: Worships an Image of Divinity]

 

6) vandana (paying homage) [Dependance: Must Pay Homage to Divinity]

 

7) dāsya (servitude) [social Complication: Servant of Divinity]

 

8) sākhya (friendship) [Contact: Divinity]

 

9) ātma-nivedana (complete surrender of the self) [Power Skill: Faith in Divinity]

[megaplayboy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Well, ancestor worship seems like a viable sci-fi religion for some cultures. Particularly if their ancestors lived a long time.

There's also all those different synonyms for worship that almost mean the same thing but not quite:

revere

venerate

honor

obey

idolize

patronize

submit to

follow

accept the teachings of

follow the way of

etc.

 

While worship/submission is an extremely common form of religious practice, I don't think it's an absolute prerequisite to all faith systems that one must wholly obey the dictates of one's deity. One could even posit a belief system where the creator deity is essentially an adversary, constantly testing and tormenting their creations, and the role of the "believer" is to resist and endure to the best of their ability--the world is a bad place because the creator is bad, and our role in this world is to steal what happiness we can and protect it as best we can. We should be compassionate to others who suffer misfortune because the Creator could inflict it on us at any time, too.

[Mister E]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Well' date=' ancestor worship seems like a viable sci-fi religion for some cultures. Particularly if their ancestors lived a long time.[/quote']

 

CHARACTERISTICS

"remembering ancestors" DMCV

 

SKILLS

"listening to ancestors" KS: Ancestral Lore

"praising ancestors" PS (PRE-based): Ancestral Communion

"complete surrender of the self to ancestors" Power Skill (EGO-based): Ancestral Faith

 

PERKS

"friendship w/ ancestors" Contact: Ancestors

"services rendered to ancestors" Favors: (Performed for Ancestors)

 

COMPLICATIONS

"ancestor worshiper" Psychological Complication: Worships Images of Ancestors

"homage to ancestors" Dependance: Must Pay Homage to Ancestors

"ancestral servitude" Social Complication: Servant of Ancestors

 

There's also all those different synonyms for worship that almost mean the same thing but not quite:

revere

venerate

honor

obey

idolize

patronize

submit to

follow

accept the teachings of

follow the way of

etc.

 

All being examples of incorporating the transcendence of another (or others, if plural) into one's own transcendence.

 

While worship/submission is an extremely common form of religious practice' date=' I don't think it's an absolute prerequisite to all faith systems that one must wholly obey the dictates of one's deity. One could even posit a belief system where the creator deity is essentially an adversary, constantly testing and tormenting their creations, and the role of the "believer" is to resist and endure to the best of their ability--the world is a bad place because the creator is bad, and our role in this world is to steal what happiness we can and protect it as best we can. We should be compassionate to others who suffer misfortune because the Creator could inflict it on us at any time, too.[/quote']

 

This reminds me of the 4 roles of agency:

• the benevolent agent (generally God)
  
• the malevolent agent (generally The Devil)
  
• the blessed (mortals that benefit from the benevolent agent)
  
• the patient (mortals that suffer under the malevolent agent)
  

 

In the hypothetical absence of The Benevolent Agent, one ought to assume the responsibilities of a benevolent agent, oneself.

[Clonus]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

On the topic of 'worship as religion'' date=' in Hinduism [i']worship[/i] is only one of several different forms of yoga: bhakti yoga.

 

Bhakti yoga has 9 components [in suggested game terms]:

 

1) śravaṇa ("listening" to the scriptural stories) [KS: Divine Scriptures]

 

2) kīrtana ("praising," usually refers to ecstatic group singing) [PS: Ecstatic Group Singing]

 

3) smaraṇa ("remembering" or fixing the mind on divinity) ["divine" defensive mental combat maneuvers]

 

4) pāda-sevana (rendering service) [Favors performed for Divinity]

 

5) arcana (worshiping an image) [Psychological Complication: Worships an Image of Divinity]

 

6) vandana (paying homage) [Dependance: Must Pay Homage to Divinity]

 

7) dāsya (servitude) [social Complication: Servant of Divinity]

 

8) sākhya (friendship) [Contact: Divinity]

 

9) ātma-nivedana (complete surrender of the self) [Power Skill: Faith in Divinity]

 

I'd say "praising" is a form of worship and so is paying homage.

[Christopher]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I just stumbeled upon this:

http://survivingtheworld.net/Lesson1264.html

 

And yes, this religion has a Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Priapus_Church

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

If worship involves drawing on the wall with felt pens, then I'm pretty sure that our local chapter meets in the staff washroom.

[Lucius]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Yeah but we aren't talking about traditional religion. We're talking about science fiction religion. The Force is an "energy field". There are people out there who worship UFOs. I was just working on a planet where in crust ' date=' there's a hundred-mile deep layer of electromagnetically active crystal encircling the entire planet that pokes up in places in stonehenge-like circles of standing stones and after everyone at a installation that tried to mine it died mysteriously...you better believe there were people who started worshipping it.[/quote']

 

Jorune?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary has no moon

[Lucius]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I just stumbeled upon this:

http://survivingtheworld.net/Lesson1264.html

 

And yes, this religion has a Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Priapus_Church

 

I'm not sure what it has to do with science fiction, but since you brought it up...

 

From Eugene Monick's Phallos: Sacred Image of the Masculine

 

Phallos, the erect penis, the emblem and standard of maleness. All images through which masculinity is defined have Phallos as their point of reference. Sinew, determination, effectuality, penetration, straightforwardness, hardness, strength - all have Phallos giving them effect .... Erection points to a powerful inner reality at work in a man, not altogether in his control. No male has to learn Phallos. It presents itself to him, as a God does.

 

A man uses Phallos; he is not a man if he cannot do so. Men need to know their source of authority and to respect their sacred symbol. Phallos opens the door to masculine depth.

 

Phallos has been neglected by the literature of psychoanalysis as an originating psychic force. It has been suggested by the fathers but not developed as a primal element in the psyche. Pscyhoanalytic theory, whether Freudian or Jungian, gives singular primacy to the mother as the basis of life. This is an error.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is moderately surprised

[Christopher]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I'm not sure what it has to do with science fiction' date=' but since you brought it up...[/quote']

Showing that even today religion is much broader than what many in this thread think?

 

When this is a religion today, who says quantum physics can't be the basis for a religion in some future setting? Or worshipping "The Force"?

[ErikModi]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I admit this bit does annoy me' date=' but what bothers me more about midichlorians is that they're hereditary, or at least random. You are born with this innate supernatural ability that, while you have to be trained to use it, 99% of the rest of the population will never even have that chance. I tend to prefer stories where heroes succeed through intelligence or dedication, regardless of (or even in spite of) some special bloodline or birthright. YMMV.[/quote']

 

But that was ALWAYS the way Force-Sensitivity worked, even before the prequels. You were either born Force-Sensitive or you weren't, that was that. Now, that does not preclude non-Force-Sensitives from being exceptional individuals. In fact, one could argue that Han, Chewie, and the Fetts were MORE special than Luke, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, and Yoda, because they succeeded without the benefit of space magic.

 

Well' date=' it also makes a complete hash of the Force as this spiritual-religious thing. Since when does space opera require "scientific" explanations for, well, anything?[/quote']

 

That's one of the fallacies I was trying to address earlier. Just because the mechanism of Force-Sensitivity in organic beings is given a scientific explanation does not make the Force as a whole ineligible to be a spiritual/religious force, any more than real-world studies into a person's brain activity during worship or communion with religious/spiritual "things" makes any modern religion nothing more than a function of brain chemistry.

 

As an aside, I am very pleased that, despite disagreements, we have kept the discussion civil and productive for two full pages now. Go us.

[DusterBoy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

And as a further note. . . a non-Force sensitive person could wield a light saber, too. See Han using Luke's to cut open the belly of the dead tauntaun, in The Empire Strikes Back.

 

And if I was a Jedi, I wouldn't worship the Force, I'd just use it to kick some serious backside.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

In the original Star Wars novel, written by George Lucus, Obi-wan offers to TEACH Han Solo how to use the force... Han mocks him. It was implied that anyone could learn. The whole 'inherited talent' thing came later... along with the Jedi don't have family thing.

(I was told that GL had the whole thing plotted in advance... I was very disappointed to find out that he was making it up as he went along.)

[megaplayboy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Another sci-fi possibility is that, through training, meditation and super-high-tech, almost anyone can achieve a transcendent, godlike state of being...but if one doesn't detach from one's worldly preoccupations, it can become "problematic". But "god-ness" in and of itself is no more a cure from the challenges of existence than it would be for an amoeba "transcending" to human-level sapience.

[Gary Miles]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

In the original Star Wars novel' date=' written by ALAN DEAN FOSTER...[/quote']

Fixed that for you.

[Clonus]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Jorune?

 

I know nothing about Jorune. I'm just working on my own space atlas, each world in it inspired by a famous science fiction author to one degree or another.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Fixed that for you.

 

Ah, man. My copy totally says "By George Lucus", but wookiepedia says it was ghostwritten by Alan Dean Foster. My bad.

[Lucius]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I know nothing about Jorune. I'm just working on my own space atlas' date=' each world in it inspired by a famous science fiction author to one degree or another.[/quote']

 

You might want to look into it. Your description reminded me of it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that there were some definite differences though.

[Clonus]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Lost Fleet did ancestor worship.

The Vilani from Traveller had a still wide-spread religion that focused on the belief that stars were supernaturally intelligent

The Force is an "energy field that binds all life together"

Clifford Simak was fond of robots with religious inclinations. There's a basic logic behind manufactured beings having trouble with the idea that intelligence could just grow

Octavia Butler's Earthseed religion combines mystical oneness of life with the idea that this oneness obligates us to spread life to places where it does not yet exist.

[Christopher]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

There's a basic logic behind manufactured beings having trouble with the idea that intelligence could just grow

As far as I understand on of the basic asumptions behind Creationism is that we are "to complex to have evolved naturally", thus there must be a creator.