ErikModi Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? So' date=' 25 pages into this thread, can someone point me to the interesting or productive part of the discussion? It's hard to find amid the snark.[/quote'] That it is. But it is there. I'd recommend starting by ignoring anything posted by certain posters. I don't want to name names, since that would not only start more pointless bickering, but also probably be considered close enough to personal attacks that any hope we have of productive discussion would vanish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Snark is the point. Welcome to the internet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister E Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Snark is the point. Welcome to the internet! This thread jumped the snark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraven Kor Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? This thread jumped the snark. If only I could remove rep... But yes, this thread is a fine example of why we will be killing each other in #DEITY's name for generations to come Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Onassiss Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Snark is the point. Welcome to the internet! Snark, and unintentional irony. [/snark] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? I provided links, you refuse to accept them. Not my problem. I'm 31. I'm surprised. The "I'm good at science" statement made me think you were still in school. I refused to accept your links because they flew in the face of accepted practice to invent their own terminoogy. You can do that on Wiki. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Snark is the point. Welcome to the internet! The Snark was a Boojum, you see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestlinggeek Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? What about a species which thinks of themselves as gods? Perhaps they're immortal, or nearly so. Perhaps their technology has developed to the point that they themselves consider it miraculous. Maybe they even expect more "primitive" species to worship them. What about a species which knows exactly what happens to them after their corporeal demise? Very interesting, and provides quite a few story hooks. I like it! Stolen! *LOL* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Niven's Puppeteers claimed to know with certainty that for their species there was no afterlife. Oddly, they claimed not to know this about anyone else and as far as I know never explained how they could be so certain in their own case. Lucius Alexander Palindromedary, meet Puppeteer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikModi Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Puppeteers were from his Ringworld books, right? I could never really get into that series. It was okay, but I've read much better. Combining that with the aspects of godlike aliens mentioned above could create a really interesting and different kind of religious war. For your consideration: The Vorlons have mathematically proven that there is both a soul and an afterlife, thus there must be divinity behind it all. The Puppeteers have mathematically proven the lack of same. Thus, the two species are in a constant state of religious disagreement, each one backed up by their own proven science. But how can both sciences be correct? The two proofs are mutually exclusive, and cannot both be correct, can they? Averting interstellar war between two horrifyingly advanced alien races may revolve around discovering a "Soul Unification Theory," a way to allow both mutually exclusive proofs to exist within the same scientific framework. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Hawk Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Puppeteers were from his Ringworld books, right? I could never really get into that series. It was okay, but I've read much better. Combining that with the aspects of godlike aliens mentioned above could create a really interesting and different kind of religious war. For your consideration: The Vorlons have mathematically proven that there is both a soul and an afterlife, thus there must be divinity behind it all. The Puppeteers have mathematically proven the lack of same. Thus, the two species are in a constant state of religious disagreement, each one backed up by their own proven science. But how can both sciences be correct? The two proofs are mutually exclusive, and cannot both be correct, can they? Averting interstellar war between two horrifyingly advanced alien races may revolve around discovering a "Soul Unification Theory," a way to allow both mutually exclusive proofs to exist within the same scientific framework. Given the nature of the Puppeteers, there would be no war. Puppeteers wouldn't mention it to the Vorlons, and if pressed retreat. (Hint: The leader of the Puppeteers is called "The Hindmost". They aren't aggressive.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikModi Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? I was just using those races as convenient names for the two opposing sides of the hypothetical conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zane_Marlowe Posted December 11, 2011 Report Share Posted December 11, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Just so we're clear, I very much doubt anyone is going to persuade anyone else of anything in this thread unless and until they do the following: 1. Define what you mean by religion. 2. Define what you mean by science. 3. Define what you mean by science-fiction. 4. Offer a view consistent with the definitions offered in 1-3 above. Now, this needn't be troll country if people simply say things like, "I disagree with (2) above," or, "I disagree with (1) above," and then go on to talk about how that changes your view of (4). But I honestly don't see how drive-by snarking about how the other guy's (1) or (2) isn't YOUR (and hence, the TRUE) (1) or (2) is going to advance any discussion of (4). But that's just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Just so we're clear, I very much doubt anyone is going to persuade anyone else of anything in this thread unless and until they do the following: 1. Define what you mean by religion. A group of people who have common beliefs about how the universe works that inspire worship. 2. Define what you mean by science. A method of learning about the universe by making observations, formulating theories, making predictions of what should be further observed if those theories are true and then seeing if those observations pan out (not just for you but for other people.) 3. Define what you mean by science-fiction. In this context? An interplanetary society. Otherwise there's no use for Star Hero's spaceship rules. I doubt that will help. I was just remembering that Divinity actually has several things in homelands and quests in it that assume that they are operating in a universe that has both high tech and low tech planets and there are encounters with starships and interstellar planet eaters... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikModi Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? 3. Define what you mean by science-fiction. Perhaps ironically, this is the most difficult one to define of all. Religion and science are both pretty well-defined terms, but science fiction has a genre has such a broad base of potential it's very difficult to pin it down. One definition I remember hearing was that if the story cannot stand without the science, then it is science fiction. This has never sat well with me, as pretty much any story can replace "science" with "magic" and get along just fine (and, in point of fact, most "science" in science fiction has far more in common with magic than science.) The other, slightly better version I heard was that science fiction is about the society, fantasy is about the individual. In fantasy stories, not only can one person make a difference, it is typical that ONLY one person can make a difference. Only Frodo can carry the One Ring to Mordor, only Perseus can slay Medusa, only the Grey Warden can defeat the Archdemon, only Luke Skywalker can stop Darth Vader and the Emperor, only Neo can save Zion. In science fiction, the whole is more important than the group. Sure, Kirk is an amazing hero, but he couldn't do any of what he does without the whole crew of the Enterprise backing him up. John Sheridan is a figure of almost religious import by the end of Babylon 5, but he couldn't have gotten there without the people around him and the alliances he made. Sheriff Jack Carter saves the day constantly, but the rest of Eureka gives him the data and tools he needs to do the job. The best definition I've ever heard is that science fiction isn't a plot, it's a setting. The new Battlestar Galactica is the perfect example of this, using the setting of science fiction to tell a very human story. All bad and most good sci-fi forgets this simple axiom, instead getting too wound up in the bells and whistles of magical technology and forgetting that, no matter what story you tell, at the end of the day it always has to be about people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Perhaps ironically' date=' this is the most difficult one to define of all. Religion and science are both pretty well-defined terms, but science fiction has a genre has such a broad base of potential it's very difficult to pin it down. One definition I remember hearing was that if the story cannot stand without the science, then it is science fiction. This has never sat well with me, as pretty much any story can replace "science" with "magic" and get along just fine (and, in point of fact, most "science" in science fiction has far more in common with magic than science.) The other, slightly better version I heard was that science fiction is about the society, fantasy is about the individual. In fantasy stories, not only can one person make a difference, it is typical that ONLY one person can make a difference. Only Frodo can carry the One Ring to Mordor, only Perseus can slay Medusa, only the Grey Warden can defeat the Archdemon, only Luke Skywalker can stop Darth Vader and the Emperor, only Neo can save Zion. In science fiction, the whole is more important than the group. Sure, Kirk is an amazing hero, but he couldn't do any of what he does without the whole crew of the [i']Enterprise[/i] backing him up. John Sheridan is a figure of almost religious import by the end of Babylon 5, but he couldn't have gotten there without the people around him and the alliances he made. Sheriff Jack Carter saves the day constantly, but the rest of Eureka gives him the data and tools he needs to do the job. That would define The Black Company, The Wheel Of Time, The Worm Ouroboros, and Magic Time as science fiction, while Philip K. Dick, Known Space and Flandry novels end up as fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted December 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Star Wars is partly fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Star Wars is partly fantasy. Which would be more useful for a Star Wars game, Star Hero or Fantasy Hero? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted December 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? It's not so much a matter of rules, as it is thematics. That said, The Force is a kind of magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starcloud Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Star Wars is Space Opera, so neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted December 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=lSCccSj3RIM#t=54s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? It's not so much a matter of rules, as it is thematics. That said, The Force is a kind of magic. All psi powers are a kind of magic, and it's a rare science fiction game that doesn't have them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clonus Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Star Wars is Space Opera' date=' so neither.[/quote'] Wait. You're saying that Star Hero isn't the right supplement to use for space opera? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? I think we can probably say that the term "science fiction" could be interpreted broadly enough to include science fantasy, space opera, cyberpunk, soft sci fi and hard science fiction. Generally it involves events occurring in a speculative future which is more advanced technologically, or in a setting where there are spaceships, aliens and space travel, or some other combination of recurring tropes(aliens, space travel, futurism, utopia/dystopia, etc.). Science could be defined as a rational methodology for investigating and explaining naturally occurring phenomena, and the body of learning that has developed over time related to that. Religion could be defined as a metaphysical belief system developed to explain not only naturally occurring phenomena, but also basic existential and moral questions such as "where do we come from", "where do we go after we die", "what do we have to do to be good people", "what are the distinctions between good and evil", "is there a superior being responsible for our existence and guiding our destinies", etc. To the extent there is a conflict between the roles of science and religion in explaining naturally occurring phenomena, one can explore to what extent civilizations have reconciled this, and to what extent their religious belief systems have adapted to the progress of scientific knowledge, contact with other species, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starcloud Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Re: Religion in Science-Fiction? Yup. Western Hero is clearly the best option. Just replace six shooter with blasters, wagons and stagecoaches with starships, cavalry with starfighters, and throw in some Ch'i powers from Martial Arts Hero. :angel: More seriously, I don't think any *one* genre book really covers things like Star Wars. Yeah, you can get most of what you need from Star Hero, but there's fantasy elements to Space Opera too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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