Religion in Science-Fiction?

[Clonus]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

More seriously, I don't think any *one* genre book really covers things like Star Wars.

 

What element of Star Wars requires another genre book than Star Hero?

[Starcloud]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

A good chunk of the Expanded Universe, to start.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I'm pretty sure laser swords, blasters, giant starships, psionics(or psi-like powers) and planet-destroying stuff all fit neatly into the rubric of sci-fi, covered by Star Hero. Space Opera's a pretty major sub-genre, along with Soft Sci-Fi(Star Trek), Hard Sci-Fi(some versions of Traveler), and science fantasy(John Carter). If there's actual magic in use in the EU, then you might have a point.

[Clonus]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

A good chunk of the Expanded Universe' date=' to start.[/quote']

 

Which chunk would that be? And which genre book would cover it?

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

So, with the various definitions of 1-3 coming out of the woodwork. Who's going to offer a position on 4 consistent with what they think about 1-3? I honestly don't see any much so far that suggests (contrary to the first thought in the commencing post on this thread) that religion would have any trouble "surviving" in a science fiction setting. Not that that's something to be aspired to, but if it was a commencing question that someone thought natural to begin with, I'm not yet sure why. Babylon 5 had a nice take on this if you remember. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXPaGCRngWw)

[Starcloud]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Sith Sorcery, as presented in the EU, is apparently actual sorcery, using the Force as a medium, sometimes mixed with science for really bizzare results.

The fact that the Force is based more in Taoist philosophy than in science-fiction psionics, makes it more suited to Ninja Hero and Chi Manipulation than psychics and espers.

There is no "one book" that covers Star Wars as a genre.

 

As for the thread title, yeah. There is no reason religion would "die" in a science fiction setting. Some people treat science and religion as mutually opposing each other. Which is really exceptionally short sighted; Science is a methodical way of understanding the measureable world. Religion is a more inchoate but still organized way of looking at the immeasureable. One talks about the structure of reality. The other talks about how people fit into that reality.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Yup. Western Hero is clearly the best option. Just replace six shooter with blasters, wagons and stagecoaches with starships, cavalry with starfighters, and throw in some Ch'i powers from Martial Arts Hero.

 

:angel.

 

Wagon Train to the Stars! Which, in fact, is how Roddenberry originally sold the show to the network.

[Mister E]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." (Han Solo)

 

Midi-chlorians turn The Force into a hokey science.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." (Han Solo)

 

Midi-chlorians turn The Force into a hokey science.

 

One of the single worst explanatory snippets from the prequels. Totally unnecessary. It's the "Planet Zeist" moment of SW.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

I ignore midi-chlorians.

[Starcloud]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Midi-chlorians are a symptom, not a cause. Otherwise it just gets exceptionally stupid.

 

"If there are so few Jedi, and they need more, why don't they just culture the midi-chlorians and do an IV drip?"

 

"If you add more midi-chlorians, do you get a Jedi who's strong in the Force?"

 

"Force-sensitive pets for everyone!"

[Clonus]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Midi-chlorians are a symptom, not a cause. Otherwise it just gets exceptionally stupid.

 

"If there are so few Jedi, and they need more, why don't they just culture the midi-chlorians and do an IV drip?"

 

Because midichorians are fictionalized mitochondria and mitochondria are integrated cellular structures, not free living bacteria. It would require actual genetic engineering (or cloning of someone with a lot) to produce someone "strong in the force". In fact that is what Palpatine is talking about when he talks about Darth Plagueis and his ability to shape life. He's suggesting that Anakin is one of Plagueis's experiments.

[Mister E]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Because midichorians are fictionalized mitochondria and mitochondria are cellular structures' date=' not free living bacteria.[/quote']

 

Mitochondria break sugar down into smaller forms of chemical energy.

 

Midi-chlorians break The Force down into smaller forms of incredibility.

[Old Man]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Because midichorians are fictionalized mitochondria and mitochondria are integrated cellular structures' date=' not free living bacteria. It would require actual genetic engineering (or cloning of someone with a lot) to produce someone "strong in the force". In fact that is what Palpatine is talking about when he talks about Darth Plagueis and his ability to shape life. He's suggesting that Anakin is one of Plagueis's experiments.[/quote']

 

In the SW universe where we can clone untold thousands of Mandalorians, we can't clone Jedi or genetically manipulate people to create them?

[Clonus]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

In the SW universe where we can clone untold thousands of Mandalorians' date=' we can't clone Jedi or genetically manipulate people to create them?[/quote']

 

We can. We don't want to. In case you've forgotten, people with large amounts of force sensitivity are prone to super powers and psychosis. (Actually the Republic can't clone people and doesn't genetically manipulate them because it's what GURPS calls safetech. That's why they had to go outside the Republic for their cloning. The Sith do genetically engineer things, but they have no reason to want to mass produce force sensitives. They have enough trouble handling two at a time.)

[Old Man]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

...people with large amounts of force sensitivity are prone to super powers and psychosis.

 

You say that like it's a bad thing!

[ErikModi]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

It's also referenced fairly often in the EU that cloning Force-Sensitive individuals is extremely difficult, and rarely pulled off successfully. Witness Joruus C'baoth.

 

I have to soapbox for a moment here on the subject of midichlorians. People seem to labor under several false assumptions when it comes to these things.

 

1: Midi-chlorians create the Force.

True, only so far as ALL living things create the Force. Ben Kenobi in ANH says "The Force is an energy field created by all living things." Yoda in ESB says "Life creates (the Force), makes it grow." As living things (symbiotes, like real-life mitochondria) midi-chlorians create the Force just as much as a human, Wookiee, Hutt, mynock, or space slug does.

 

2: Midi-chlorians ARE the Force.

False. The Force is still an energy field, still the mystical power of life itself. All midi-chlorians do, according to Qui-Gon's explanation, is allow a living being to tap into that energy and use it.

 

3: I can drink a midi-chlorian cocktail or get a Jedi blood transfusion and become instantly Force-Sensitive!

False. That's as reasonable as getting a blood transfusion from a person with a naturally high metabolism will cause you to lose weight, or a white person getting blood from a black person getting darker skin. It just ain't gonna happen. In real life, coming in contact with someone else's tissue isn't going to rewrite your own DNA, much less your mitochondrial DNA, so why would Star Wars' midi-chlorians have this effect? They wouldn't.

 

4: Midi-chlorians reduce the Force to mere biology, instead of it being space magic.

This is part of the larger fallacy that science and magic cannot co-exist within the same fictional framework. Many people seem unable to cope with a fictional world that has both aspects within it at the same time. A world with magic cannot have any tech more advanced than a crossbow, though it is (rarely) allowed to have magical items that mimic high technology, such as light spells bound in metal rods to make flashlights. And if your world has rayguns and spaceships, magic is non-existent at best, fakery perpetrated by those of nefarious intent at worst. Recently, this trend has been changing, but many people are still highly resistant to the idea of magic and science interacting too closely. There's a real tendency to, on the rare occasions science and magic are allowed to co-exist in the same universe, to refuse to allow magic to interact with science in any meaningful way. For instance, I'm reading a novel series by Adrian Tchaikovsky, called Shadows of the Apt. In this fantasy world, humanity is divided into several subspecies, each based on particular insects and getting special abilities called Art from each. Ant-kinden can communicate telepathically, Beetle-kinden have excptional physical toughness, Spider-kinden can cling to walls, etc. Some races are Apt, which means they can invent and use technology. Some races are Inapt, which means that even pulling the lever on a crossbow or turning a doorknob is beyond them. Inapt races can use magic, which is a concept so totally alien to the Apt that they, for the most part, deny it even exists. Science cannot explain magic, and magic cannot explain science. However, logically there must be points where the two overlap. To perform the tricks he is capable of through the Force, a Jedi must draw on some kind of energy. Testing may well reveal that this energy is translated through is body by the organelles known as midi-chlorians. Where the organelles get this energy from, or how exactly they translate it into usable form, remains mysterious, but the data supports the conclusion that midi-chlorians give Jedi "knowledge of the Force."

 

Sorry for the tirade, but I've seen this argument way too many times, and it always seems to stem from the same misunderstandings and misrepresentations of what was actually stated. I now return this thread to the general direction of maybe making its way somewhere close to in the vicinity of on-topic.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Easier to ignore em'.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

It's also referenced fairly often in the EU that cloning Force-Sensitive individuals is extremely difficult' date=' and rarely pulled off successfully. Witness Joruus C'baoth.[/quote']

 

Joruus C'baoth being -- in that pre-prequel version of the wonderfulness that the prequels could have been, was but one of thousands of Jedi who were cloned. Again in that version, the 'Clone' part of the Clone Wars (note the plural) wasn't about the Grand Army of the Republic being made up of clones; it was the fact that cloned Jedi went mad and started making their own little kingdoms, enthralling the citizenry, etc. etc. Jedi went against cloned Jedi, mass chaos ensued, and Palpatine rose to power by manipulating the fears of a galaxy. The Grand Army (and Navy) had always existed; you simply could not have had a unified government across that much space without one to keep the peace.

 

Mad clones, though, are why Palpatine could hunt down Jedi, and why the Senate would applaud him -- 'X could be a mad clone!! Kill it!!' *Usagi Yojimbo death rattle* "YAY, IT'S DEAD!!"

 

Once again, Geo. Lucas grablixes things up.

[ErikModi]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

There really wasn't much established about the Clone Wars in the pre-prequel EU, partly because George Lucas had his own ideas and didn't want to let other authors establish what was going to happen for him. As such, an Clone Wars references in materials written before the prequels is very vague, and does sometimes contradict the events depicted in the Clone Wars, though the galaxy honestly is big enough to fit almost everything.

 

I recall being at a panel with Timothy Zhan as one of the guest speakers, and hearing how GLs input changed the story he was intending to write. To of the major changes:

 

The Noghri were originally supposed to be the Sith.

Joruus C'Baoth was originally supposed to be an insane clone of Obi-Wan.

 

Anyway, we're now really getting off topic.

[Old Man]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

4: Midi-chlorians reduce the Force to mere biology, instead of it being space magic.

 

I admit this bit does annoy me, but what bothers me more about midichlorians is that they're hereditary, or at least random. You are born with this innate supernatural ability that, while you have to be trained to use it, 99% of the rest of the population will never even have that chance. I tend to prefer stories where heroes succeed through intelligence or dedication, regardless of (or even in spite of) some special bloodline or birthright. YMMV.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Well, it also makes a complete hash of the Force as this spiritual-religious thing. Since when does space opera require "scientific" explanations for, well, anything?

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Well' date=' it also makes a complete hash of the Force as this spiritual-religious thing. Since when does space opera require "scientific" explanations for, well, anything?[/quote']

 

My personal hypothesis is that Lucas wanted something more "scientific" sounding because he was sick to death of wannabe SF critics insisting for decades that Star Wars was "fantasy not SF." If that's the case (and I don't know that it is) then I'd almost let him off the hook.

 

But, as megaplayboy pointed out, the space opera sub-genre simply isn't that rigid about these things. The whole midi-chlorians thing came across as badly-written, out-of-genre, unnecessary exposition.

[Old Man]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Exactly. It would have been far better if Qui-Gon had measured Anakin's force prowess by meditating or mind melding or dowsing or basically any method that didn't involve some sort of machine with a digital readout.

 

On a side note, Jake Lloyd is 22.

[Clonus]

Re: Religion in Science-Fiction?

 

Well' date=' it also makes a complete hash of the Force as this spiritual-religious thing.[/quote']

 

Honestly...no it doesn't. It's only a matter of time before somebody incorporates quantum entanglement into a religion. Scientology was an outgrowth of Reich.