CON: Over-Nerfed?

[kjandreano]

CON (the Constitution stat) just doesn't seem worth the same as other 1 point per point stats such as STR or INT in 6th edition. I'm toying with the idea of a house rule for it where the cost is reduced, or I give CON other uses. Has anyone else made such rules for CON?

[megaplayboy]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

Well, having a low CON can result in a too-easily-stunned character, so there's clearly still some value to it. One thing you could do is require CON rolls a little more frequently, for various things(holding on to something while in pain, coping with high-G maneuvering, food poisoning, going without food or water, exerting effort for long periods of time, pushing STR and other abilities, etc.). CON can also be a general "stand in" for how healthy and energetic the character is--can they go out drinking, stay out late partying, then have enough stamina left to get through work or class with little to no sleep? etc.

[djkester]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

I agree with Megaplayboy (MPB). The CON effect on being stunned shouldn't be overlooked. Additionally, you can expressly leverage CON in your game play as MPB has called out.

 

I'm working on a heroic fantasy campaign and I'm going to be using the long term endurance optional rules (6E2 132).

 

One option you might consider if you are using CON is to modify the LTE rules.

 

CON could modify in some way either the recovery rate, the time of an extended rest, or the limits the loss.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

You could also change the Recovery Time Table to allow characters with a higher CON to recover more often.

[Christopher]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

There are some optional uses:

Imparing/Disabling Rule

Low/High Pressure Environment and Related issues (Diving Sickness)

Con can be drained. When dropped to 0, character has to make Rolls to spend Endurance and once again for every a/ction that costs endurance

To avoid death from "Simulate Death" Talent

As required Roll

 

I think in superheroic it has it's main value as "hard to be stunned" Value.

In Heroic that is perhaps less severe (more killing Attacks), wich is countered by all the uses in the Heroic Level optional Rules.

[RexMundi]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

I use Con quite often....for all the above reasons, and since I build a lot of "normal" heroes it factors in a lot for Requires a Roll for defensive and movement set ups. A lot of folks overlook the use of the stat just at its basic "resist stun" use as well relying on things like the campaign cap set up to keep certain types of damage low, while allowing preferred damage causing point expenditures . You toss in some 7d6 NND to match the other side of the AP field....and you start seeing Con become as important in a build as STR, DEX, defenses and attacks.

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

You toss in some 7d6 NND to match the other side of the AP field....and you start seeing Con become as important in a build as STR' date=' DEX, defenses and attacks.[/quote']

And of course let's not forget Mental Blast here....

[phoenix240]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

Well' date=' having a low CON can result in a too-easily-stunned character, so there's clearly still some value to it. One thing you could do is require CON rolls a little more frequently, for various things(holding on to something while in pain, coping with high-G maneuvering, food poisoning, going without food or water, exerting effort for long periods of time, pushing STR and other abilities, etc.). CON can also be a general "stand in" for how healthy and energetic the character is--can they go out drinking, stay out late partying, then have enough stamina left to get through work or class with little to no sleep? etc.[/quote']

 

I'd love more guidelines for this sort of thing for all the Characteristics really.

[phoenix240]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

You could also change the Recovery Time Table to allow characters with a higher CON to recover more often.

 

I like that idea.

[Christopher]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

O, and Resisted by CON for Mental Powers.

Or the new "Attack vs. Alternate Charactersitic" in the APG (Entangle vs. CON).

And you could make a Power where CON acts as a defense...(AVAD)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

CON is largely a character tax. No matter the price, most characters need enough CON that a campaign average attack doesn't Stun them, or they spend a lot of time being dazed and wondering why they came to the game.

 

I could have lived with CON costing 1/2 point, but ultuimately it wouldn't make a huge difference.

[RexMundi]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

CON is largely a character tax. No matter the price, most characters need enough CON that a campaign average attack doesn't Stun them, or they spend a lot of time being dazed and wondering why they came to the game.

 

I could have lived with CON costing 1/2 point, but ultuimately it wouldn't make a huge difference.

 

If a character in a game and spends all their time staggering around stunned that usually just means they Don't Dodge, Block, Dive for Cover, Roll with the Punch, much.....Gotta use the tools in the Tool Box.

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

If a character in a game and spends all their time staggering around stunned that usually just means they Don't Dodge' date=' Block, Dive for Cover, Roll with the Punch, much.....Gotta use the tools in the Tool Box.[/quote']

Aye.

You only stagger around all the time when you take the hits because you never avoid being hit (or the game is so unbalanced, that the enemies are likely to hit you anyway because they have 3-5 points more OCV - so they just ignore the effect of a Block).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

If a character in a game and spends all their time staggering around stunned that usually just means they Don't Dodge' date=' Block, Dive for Cover, Roll with the Punch, much.....Gotta use the tools in the Tool Box.[/quote']

 

The only way you can avoid every hit (or even most hits) with Dodge, Block, DFC is if you have a higher Speed than your opponent, or you never attack yourself. In my experience, most characters in most genres are going to take hits. The occasional character relies extensively on a high natural DCV, but most have a fair chance of being hit by the typical attack.

 

If you're fighting a single Big Bad, the whole team can reserve until we find out who he's going to attack, that guy can Defend and the rest can attack. If we're fighting mooks, we can probably get away with Defense on shared phases and attacking on our extra phases (at least until the mooks get smart enough to reserve actions). If we're fighting a roughly equal sized team of opponents of comparable ability, then Dodging or Blocking every attack means dragging the combat out until the opponent gets lucky and tags you, at which time (since you were relying on avoiding the hit, not having enough defenses to weather it), you are Stunned and will soon be removed from the combat.

 

Of course, I'm going with my own experiences. Do others routinely see characters whose combined DEF + CON is lower than the average roll from a campaign-standard DC attack, such that getting Stunned is a reasonable expectation if you get hit, rather than the result of either a lucky shot or an unusually powerful attack? Do these characters invest a lot more in DCV so they are unlikely to be hit, or do they use most of their actions for defensive maneuvers trying to set an opponent up for a counterattack? What genres (seems to me this would fit well in horror games, wild west and a lot of modern action/adventure, for example).

[Christopher]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

The only way you can avoid every hit (or even most hits) with Dodge' date=' Block, DFC is if you have a higher Speed than your opponent, or you never attack yourself.[/quote']

Of course you can't win by only defending. But who said you have too?

 

If you succesfully block, you go first in the next phase you have in common with your enemy, regardless of dex (wich you best use to get the enemy on the defense). While the character may not know of SPD or initiative order, the players can still arrange the maneuvers in usefull fashion.

 

Higher SPD gives you some advantages here (you can Block or Abort to Block, but still make an at tack in the phases you don't share with the enemy) but that is why it costs that much. And the guy with the highest SPD should not have the highest OCV or Damage potential, so he pays for it with lesser chance to hit (keep in mind that he can use his CSL a little bit better when calculatign this).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

Of course you can't win by only defending. But who said you have too?

 

If you succesfully block, you go first in the next phase you have in common with your enemy, regardless of dex (wich you best use to get the enemy on the defense). While the character may not know of SPD or initiative order, the players can still arrange the maneuvers in usefull fashion.

 

Sure. So can your opponents. So, let's assume more or less equal characters. He swings, I block. If I fail, and he hits me, I'm stunned. Battle over. If I succeed, I move first next phase. Now, should I attack? If I do, he can still abort to Block and, if successful, we're back where we started. If I hit him and he's not stunned, he gets to attack me (and, as it's the same segment, I can't abort), so if a typical hit means being Stunned, it's probably game over for me.

 

A game where the typical hit will stun the target makes first strike a lot more valuable (supporting the 2 pt cost for DEX that we frequently argue about on the Boards), as the first hit will generally end the battle. It would lend to a very different combat dynamic. However, in my experience, most players find being routinely one-punched not to be very heroic, or to be a fun gaming experience, so they generally build characters who can weather a few hits. That means paying the "character tax" so your CON is adequate to avoid being Stunned by a typical hit in the game.

 

Higher SPD gives you some advantages here (you can Block or Abort to Block, but still make an at tack in the phases you don't share with the enemy) but that is why it costs that much. And the guy with the highest SPD should not have the highest OCV or Damage potential, so he pays for it with lesser chance to hit (keep in mind that he can use his CSL a little bit better when calculatign this).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

Higher SPD gives you some advantages here (you can Block or Abort to Block' date=' but still make an at tack in the phases you don't share with the enemy) but that is why it costs that much. [b']And the guy with the highest SPD should not have the highest OCV or Damage potential, so he pays for it with lesser chance to hit [/b](keep in mind that he can use his CSL a little bit better when calculatign this).

I disagree with this. In Supers games the common trope is that the Speedster or Martial Artist often have the highest SPD and highest Combat Value (both Offensive and Defensive). Sometimes this is coupled with lower damage, but not always (in Champions I'd probably say not usually even). More often it is coupled with lower Defense. Either way, I rarely see high SPD characters with a much less chance to hit than thier teammates. It's usually just the opposite.

[prestidigitator]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

Front line fighters ("Bricks") typically will have a high Con as well as decent defenses and quite a bit of damage potential. Range-based characters ("Energy Blasters") and sometimes "Martial Artists" with high CV may not, and will probably spend the points on DCV, unusual attacks and defenses, movement, etc. Not every character need have an ultra-high Con, but it pays to think about the role you will play in a fight. I too like making it count in other contexts, like when a character is exerting himself over long periods of time or subject to strange conditions/substances.

[RexMundi]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

I just don't see a lot of High Con builds (except for my own). They seem to be stuck in that 1-5th Rut of 20 Con, and then PILES of Defenses. I'm sure there are exceptions, but rarely do I see Con go over the minimum needed, to keep from getting Stunned after one maxes out their Defenses via the campaign set up.

 

~Rex

[megaplayboy]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

I just don't see a lot of High Con builds (except for my own). They seem to be stuck in that 1-5th Rut of 20 Con, and then PILES of Defenses. I'm sure there are exceptions, but rarely do I see Con go over the minimum needed, to keep from getting Stunned after one maxes out their Defenses via the campaign set up.

 

~Rex

 

If you want to drive a group of PCs nuts, write up a villain with a CON = total STUN+10. You literally have to one-shot them down to PS12 recovery level in order to stun them. And they don't even have Damage Reduction! "We did a total of 50 stun past defenses! What do you mean "they're not stunned"?!?"

[RexMundi]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

Got a Few Builds like that. One of my favorite Bricks, is basically built along the lines of that. I don't get to play him much though. Has squat for Defenses as well, heh.

 

~Rex

[The Main Man]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

You could also change the Recovery Time Table to allow characters with a higher CON to recover more often.

I do something like that in my games.

 

Knocked out characters normally takes recoveries on every available Phase as long as they are -1-10 STUN. That rate drops down the Time Chart for every -10 STUN. This interestingly correlates with a standard character having 10 CON, so my house rule makes it so that the initial range of which a character can take recoveries every Phase is equal to a character's negative CON number.

 

So a 10 CON character gets their normal recovery rate anywhere from -1-10 STUN while a 15 CON character can make recoveries every phase from -1-15 STUN - At -16-25 STUN it drops to a recovery every minute, and so on every -10 STUN as normal.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

So, here's what I don't get. Why is CON the amount of damage you can take before being Stunned, and STUN the amount of damage you can take before being unconscious? I think a terminology change is in order; CON (Consciousness), and when you run out of CON you are unconscious. STUN (Stun Threshhold) is the amount of damage you take before being Stunned.

 

Chris

 

The pushmi-pullyu (filling in for the palindromedary) says "Every time I hear someone say CON Stunned I'm going to say Stunconscious"

[RexMundi]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

It wouldn't fit with Con related Rolls then.

 

~Rex

[bigbywolfe]

Re: CON: Over-Nerfed?

 

So, here's what I don't get. Why is CON the amount of damage you can take before being Stunned, and STUN the amount of damage you can take before being unconscious? I think a terminology change is in order; CON (Consciousness), and when you run out of CON you are unconscious. STUN (Stun Threshhold) is the amount of damage you take before being Stunned.

 

Chris

 

The pushmi-pullyu (filling in for the palindromedary) says "Every time I hear someone say CON Stunned I'm going to say Stunconscious"

 

That's like "why do we park in driveways and drive on parkways?"