I've got you

[Sean Waters]

This came up in another thread - and I think we have discussed it before, but it is worth kicking around again.

 

So, you buy Flight and your sfx is wings, and you take the limitation 'Restrainable'.

 

What does that mean?

 

Well, at the +1/2 level it means that the power can be stopped from working by a grab or entangle (6.1.393).

 

However, entangles always immobilises anyway*, unless you have teleport or desolidification (6.1.215) and grabs reduce your move to zero if you can not beat the grabber's strength with your casual strength (6.2.63). OK technically I suppose if you are a flier who is grabbed then a move of zero is better than being immobilised as you can still stay aloft, but really, is that worth -1/2? There is practically no difference from the unlimited power.

 

The other issue is that the limitation is much, much less of a limitation for strong characters than weak ones, as it is far harder to grab a very strong character because they get an immediate casual strength roll to break free. Of course this strays into one of the biggest black holes in Hero: is a limitation a limitation if it does not limit? No says the rule, but then what does that mean? How strong do you have to be before having Restrainable wings does not effectively limit you?

 

Of course you can merrily house rule your way around this one, but it would be nice to have a rule: If Zephyr**, who has air manipulation powers, is handcuffed, of course she can still fly. What if she is bound hand and foot? What if she is tied to a chair? What if she is tied to a tree? Does it make any difference if any of those things are just the sfx of an entangle power?

 

What if Zephyr is grabbed by Goldmine, who is a lot stronger then her, but not so heavy she could not normally lift him while flying? Goldmine can not fly, but the rules on grabbing a flier do not require the grabber to have an equivalent power.

 

 

 

*and you can not use movement powers other than teleport to escape.

 

**whose Flight is NOT built with Restrainable

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: I've got you

 

So what if we just don't call it "Restrainable?" Instead, let's call it Gestures (wing flapping) on a Constant power, which would also be -1/2. If any other application of constant Gestures is worth -1/2, why wouldn't this one be?

 

Also, FWIW, the character being unable to move (due to Grab/Entangle) isn't exactly the same thing as the power not working (Restrainable). For example, a character might have other Powers that are Linked to their Flight. With an ordinary Grab/Entangle, the Linked Power could remain on, even if the character didn't move, because simply being Grabbed/Entangled doesn't literally prevent your Flight Power from working. With Restrainable, the Limitation condition prevents the Power from working, which would also prevent any Linked Powers from working...

[djkester]

Re: I've got you

 

I would think that any form of movement that is restrainable based on the physicality of the motion should not be allowed the limitation of "restrainable". You can't run with your legs tied etc.. The question then comes for moment powers which inherently have in the power design the idea of restrainability and which do not. For example: Run does and Teleport does not.

 

So for movement powers the 'Restrainable' limitation should only be allowed for powers that aren't stopped by the rules you mentioned. Otherwise there is no additional limitation. Now one thing you could consider is that my Wings are easier to restrain than I am as a person. So If i'm grabbed I can't fly even if I'm stronger than the STR of the entangle or grabber. In my mind that would be a pretty minor limitation though maybe (-1/4) if the character was pretty strong.

 

I like the implementation of the "if it isn't limiting it doesn't have any value." It really helps me evaluate things pretty evenly.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: I've got you

 

Running is "restrainable" by default. Flight isn't. Flight has a turn mode, Running doesn't. They are different movement powers, so you can't equate them without a little jiggering.

 

Derek makes a good point that "restrainable" Flight is really just Flight with Gestures. In my own mind the value of the limitation comes from the fact that the character will drop like a rock if his wings are restrained. That could potentially hurt a lot. Also, as GM I typically require a fair amount of unrestricted space for wings to flap, so unless the hallway is particularly wide, winged characters don't fly around inside much, but maybe that is just me.

[djkester]

Re: I've got you

 

So what if we just don't call it "Restrainable?" Instead' date=' let's call it Gestures (wing flapping) on a Constant power, which would also be -1/2. If any other application of constant Gestures is worth -1/2, why wouldn't this one be?[/quote']

 

I think the question I posted earlier is the direction for the answer to this issue. If a power is inherently restrainable under the immobilization and grab rules than it inherently has the limitation built into the power. So no additional value for taking it a second time.

 

Also, FWIW, the character being unable to move (due to Grab/Entangle) isn't exactly the same thing as the power not working (Restrainable). For example, a character might have other Powers that are Linked to their Flight. With an ordinary Grab/Entangle, the Linked Power could remain on, even if the character didn't move, because simply being Grabbed/Entangled doesn't literally prevent your Flight Power from working. With Restrainable, the Limitation condition prevents the Power from working, which would also prevent any Linked Powers from working...

 

Ah, this is a good point. As a DM I'd have to understand the nature of the power being built to determine the value of the linkage. In any case I wouldn't apply the limitation Restrainable to the flight but I would likely put a "not while immobolized or grabbed" limitation on the linked powers. I'd need to model this a bit to determine what level of limitation this would be.

 

I'd think that if some players could apply restrainable as a free limitation to most powers they would. So I'd monitor this one and determine the real value of the limitation based on the character and the design of the powers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: I've got you

 

So what if we just don't call it "Restrainable?" Instead, let's call it Gestures (wing flapping) on a Constant power, which would also be -1/2. If any other application of constant Gestures is worth -1/2, why wouldn't this one be?

 

Also, FWIW, the character being unable to move (due to Grab/Entangle) isn't exactly the same thing as the power not working (Restrainable). For example, a character might have other Powers that are Linked to their Flight. With an ordinary Grab/Entangle, the Linked Power could remain on, even if the character didn't move, because simply being Grabbed/Entangled doesn't literally prevent your Flight Power from working. With Restrainable, the Limitation condition prevents the Power from working, which would also prevent any Linked Powers from working...

 

I accept that, hence the comment about 0m of flight being better than none as you can still technically hover, but the definition of entangle says it makes it impossible to use movement powers, not just impossible to use them for movement. Even if I am being too harsh in my assessment, it is still only going to affect characters with powers linked to movement. The point is that the limitation does not really limit much more than the same power without the modifier.

 

'Gestures' does not help much: how could you carry your badly injured team mate away from the battle if you were required to comply with the constraints of 'Gestures'?

 

The same argument could be applied then to running (I need to be able to move my legs, so can I get a limitation on my running?), or swinging, or swimming, in most cases.

[Sean Waters]

Re: I've got you

 

Running is "restrainable" by default. Flight isn't. Flight has a turn mode, Running doesn't. They are different movement powers, so you can't equate them without a little jiggering.

 

Derek makes a good point that "restrainable" Flight is really just Flight with Gestures. In my own mind the value of the limitation comes from the fact that the character will drop like a rock if his wings are restrained. That could potentially hurt a lot. Also, as GM I typically require a fair amount of unrestricted space for wings to flap, so unless the hallway is particularly wide, winged characters don't fly around inside much, but maybe that is just me.

 

 

If a flier is entangled in flight they DO drop like a rock, by the rules, whatever the build.

[Christopher]

Re: I've got you

 

However' date=' entangles always immobilises anyway*, unless you have teleport or desolidification (6.1.215) and grabs reduce your move to zero if you can not beat the grabber's strength with your casual strength (6.2.63). OK technically I suppose if you are a flier who is grabbed then a move of zero is better than being immobilised as you can still stay aloft, but really, is that worth -1/2? There is practically no difference from the unlimited power.[/quote']

Isn't there? You can add movement to STR to have it easier to break out.

 

Also, a grab does not inherently imobilises you.

Grundy found out the hard way:

 

 

 

Also' date=' as GM I typically require a fair amount of unrestricted space for wings to flap, so unless the hallway is particularly wide, winged characters don't fly around inside much, but maybe that is just me.[/quote']

That is a very good point:

Retrainable at -1/2 means "with fairly easy methods". Taking the fight into a close corridor is one fairly easy method. While Grabs/Entangles are the most common form to stop such a Power, it can be anything else.

 

I accept that' date=' hence the comment about 0m of flight being better than none as you can still technically hover[/quote']

Nope. You can't use a movement power reduced to 0m, not even to hover. When a power is drained to 0 or below, it simply stops working.

 

If a flier is entangled in flight they DO drop like a rock' date=' by the rules, whatever the build.[/quote']

Nope. This depends on the SFX of entangle and Movement. 6E1 215 has some good examples. You can't prevent superman from flying with handcuffs and when you hit him with a glue gun in the air he won't drop. But you could nail a gargoyle down with "Wing cuffs" or good placed hit with the glue gun.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: I've got you

 

If a flier is entangled in flight they DO drop like a rock' date=' by the rules, whatever the build.[/quote']

 

Not necessarily; it is the GM's call based on the sfx. From 6e1 page 215:

 

"Typically an Entangle completely immobilizes a character, making it impossible for him to move or use any Movement Powers except Teleportation, but the exact effects depend on the special effects of the Entangle and Movement Power. In some cases, the character may retain the ability to move, but remain Entangled when he does so. For example, a character with Flight could fly while handcuffed — but this wouldn’t free him from the handcuffs, he’d just take them with him. But if his Flight had the Gestures Limitation, he couldn’t fly, since the handcuffs prevent him from making the proper gestures."

[Sean Waters]

Re: I've got you

 

Isn't there? You can add movement to STR to have it easier to break out.

Only to the initial casual STR roll, thereafter you are not moving, if it fails so there is nothing to add.

 

Also, a grab does not inherently imobilises you.

Grundy found out the hard way:

 

Not in Hero.

 

 

That is a very good point:

Retrainable at -1/2 means "with fairly easy methods". Taking the fight into a close corridor is one fairly easy method. While Grabs/Entangles are the most common form to stop such a Power, it can be anything else.

 

Which might justify taking BOTH restrainable and gestures: there is no need for restrainable powers to take up a lot of space.

 

 

Nope. You can't use a movement power reduced to 0m' date=' not even to hover. When a power is drained to 0 or below, it simply stops working.[/quote']

 

Nope. If grabbed then the character is reduced to 0 m of movement and remains where they were when grabbed - see original page reference.

 

 

 

Nope. This depends on the SFX of entangle and Movement. 6E1 215 has some good examples. You can't prevent superman from flying with handcuffs and when you hit him with a glue gun in the air he won't drop. But you could nail a gargoyle down with "Wing cuffs" or good placed hit with the glue gun.

 

There is a lot of difference between 'logically' and 'by the rules'. Part of the restriction you would have in buying an Entangle as 'handcuffs' would, or should, include 'only to restrain the hands/arms to the extent that handcuffs actually would. You can't prevent a winged character flying with handcuffs, unless you somehow trap their wings too.

 

In Hero if you hit a flying flier with an ice Entangle that completely seals them in a block of ice, what happens?

[Sean Waters]

Re: I've got you

 

Not necessarily; it is the GM's call based on the sfx. From 6e1 page 215:

 

"Typically an Entangle completely immobilizes a character, making it impossible for him to move or use any Movement Powers except Teleportation, but the exact effects depend on the special effects of the Entangle and Movement Power. In some cases, the character may retain the ability to move, but remain Entangled when he does so. For example, a character with Flight could fly while handcuffed — but this wouldn’t free him from the handcuffs, he’d just take them with him. But if his Flight had the Gestures Limitation, he couldn’t fly, since the handcuffs prevent him from making the proper gestures."

 

See my reply to Christopher - that is more about how you logically build handcuffs than anything else - and explains why Derek's suggestion of using 'gestures' for flight would not work. Again - what happens if a flying flier - with or without 'Restrainable' is hit by an Entangle that they can not break out of with casual strength and completely encases them in a block of ice?

[Christopher]

Re: I've got you

 

Only to the initial casual STR roll' date=' thereafter you are not moving, if it fails so there is nothing to add.[/quote']

How about adding it to your not casual STR roll (a Standart Action), that you do to break out?

 

Not in Hero.

When you are grabbed/or grabbign someone and can lift the otehr one with your STR/Movement, then you can jsut fly up. Nothing in the rules says otherwise.

 

Which might justify taking BOTH restrainable and gestures: there is no need for restrainable powers to take up a lot of space.

Nothing in restrainable says it needs to be blocked by grabs! When you read it again, you might notice the cyberware example for Restrainable: It's not it because it can be blocked by grabs, but because it can be hacked via it's wireless link. A weakness well known and easily exploited (in a typical Cyberpunk campaign).

 

Nope. If grabbed then the character is reduced to 0 m of movement and remains where they were when grabbed - see original page reference.

See 6E2 64, "Moving a grabbed character".

 

In Hero if you hit a flying flier with an ice Entangle that completely seals them in a block of ice' date=' what happens?[/quote']

Superman could still fly, asuming he doesn't has some really low weight limit. Also keep in midn that one is never "completely" entangled. The character isn't prevent from breathing.

It would certainly help to have a "weight" value for an entangle (maybe based on body) just to see with how much force it pulls you down/encumbers you.

[Sean Waters]

Re: I've got you

 

How about adding it to your not casual STR roll (a Standart Action)' date=' that you do to break out?[/quote']

 

Not according to the rules, no. You are grabbed so your move is zero, so there is nothing to add. 6.2.63

 

 

When you are grabbed/or grabbign someone and can lift the otehr one with your STR/Movement' date=' then you can jsut fly up. Nothing in the rules says otherwise.[/quote']

 

See my original example. Zephyr is 15 STR, easily enough to lift and fly with Goldmine who is 70 STR but normal human mass. Zephyr has NO modifiers on her flight. Goldmine grabs Zephyr. This is quite easy as he is very much stronger then her. Please note that Goldmine is NOT grabbed, he is the grabber. Even if Zephyr wanted to grab him she would have a really hard time as she is suffering penalties AND her full STR is a lot less than Goldmine's casual STR. The rules say you can move a character you have grabbed. They do not say you can move a character that has grabbed you. They say that, if you are grabbed, you remain where you are until you break out.

 

Actually, you'll like this:

 

6.2.63: He has to break out in the usualfashion, without gaining any STR benefit from

movement.

 

6.2.64: (same section of rules) Typically a Grabbed character cannot use

any form of movement to keep moving while

Grabbed. He may be able to use his movement to

improve his STR to break free (see 6E2 25), but

that’s all (though Teleportation lets a character

escape from most Grabs easily).

 

So who knows? There is a direct contradiction in the rules and, for once, the phrase 'With GM Permission' is not used!

 

 

Nothing in restrainable says it needs to be blocked by grabs! When you read it again' date=' you might notice the cyberware example for Restrainable: It's not it because it can be blocked by grabs, but because it can be hacked via it's wireless link. A weakness well known and easily exploited (in a typical Cyberpunk campaign).[/quote']

 

That is the -1/4 version, not the one we are talking about: it is considered LESS of a limitation.

 

 

See 6E2 64' date=' "Moving a grabbed character".[/quote']

 

I agree, if you grab someone and they do not break free or grab you, then you can move them. That is clear in the rules and makes logical sense too.

 

 

Superman could still fly, asuming he doesn't has some really low weight limit. Also keep in midn that one is never "completely" entangled. The character isn't prevent from breathing.

It would certainly help to have a "weight" value for an entangle (maybe based on body) just to see with how much force it pulls you down/encumbers you.

 

I agree, but that is not how the rules say it works. I'm not even sure how I would build a character that can fly whilst entangled. Some sort of custom adder or modifier, perhaps. I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just pointing it out and wondering what we can do about it. I mean, Supes can probably shatter most entangles with his casual STR anyway, so he may not be the best example, but assuming a Hero build of Superman was entangled, the rules say he has to stop moving.

[Enforcer84]

Re: I've got you

 

I rarely let rules get in the way of a good game

[Sean Waters]

Re: I've got you

 

I rarely let rules get in the way of a good game

 

Quite right too, but I do like to have a nice convoluted discussion about the rules when I'm not playing a good game

[Sean Waters]

Re: I've got you

 

Perhaps what we need is a modifier: unaffected by grabs or entangle, unless anchored +1/2

 

That would allow a character with a movement power to continue to use it when grabbed or entangled if the grab or entangle is not attached to a solid object - and even then if they can overcome the DEF (possibly DEF+BODY) of the anchoring object, even if that does not overcome the grab/entangle.

 

So Zephyr has Flight that is unaffected by grabs or entangles. Goldmine jumps up and grabs her. She can still fly normally. If she was on the ground whilst grabbed and Goldmine had a hold on a 4 DEF/6 BODY cable that is stuck firmly into the ground, Zephyr might be able to use her flight to add to her strength tug Goldmine up into the air and snap the cable, even though she could never overcome his 70 STR grab.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: I've got you

 

This came up in another thread - and I think we have discussed it before, but it is worth kicking around again.

 

So, you buy Flight and your sfx is wings, and you take the limitation 'Restrainable'.

 

What does that mean?

 

Well, at the +1/2 level it means that the power can be stopped from working by a grab or entangle (6.1.393).

 

However, entangles always immobilises anyway*, unless you have teleport or desolidification (6.1.215) and grabs reduce your move to zero if you can not beat the grabber's strength with your casual strength (6.2.63). OK technically I suppose if you are a flier who is grabbed then a move of zero is better than being immobilised as you can still stay aloft, but really, is that worth -1/2? There is practically no difference from the unlimited power.

 

The other issue is that the limitation is much, much less of a limitation for strong characters than weak ones, as it is far harder to grab a very strong character because they get an immediate casual strength roll to break free. Of course this strays into one of the biggest black holes in Hero: is a limitation a limitation if it does not limit? No says the rule, but then what does that mean? How strong do you have to be before having Restrainable wings does not effectively limit you?

 

Of course you can merrily house rule your way around this one, but it would be nice to have a rule: If Zephyr**, who has air manipulation powers, is handcuffed, of course she can still fly. What if she is bound hand and foot? What if she is tied to a chair? What if she is tied to a tree? Does it make any difference if any of those things are just the sfx of an entangle power?

 

What if Zephyr is grabbed by Goldmine, who is a lot stronger then her, but not so heavy she could not normally lift him while flying? Goldmine can not fly, but the rules on grabbing a flier do not require the grabber to have an equivalent power.

 

 

 

*and you can not use movement powers other than teleport to escape.

 

**whose Flight is NOT built with Restrainable

 

I think you've just given some very good reasons on why the base rule against entangled/grabbed characters not being able to use flight is in need of some adjustments.

 

example @ 1:00

 

 

Superman is grabbed by Solomon Grundy and does NOT break the grab. He is still able to fly straight up and essentially do a move-through vs. the ground against Grundy.

 

Does anyone think that Superman's Flight Power needs some additional HERO Advantage to allow this?

[Sean Waters]

Re: I've got you

 

It is possible that, mechanically, what happened was that Superman managed a reverse even though it LOOKED as if Grundy still had the grab. OTOH the flight was pretty slow which could indicate an advantaged MP slot, or a partially advantaged power.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: I've got you

 

It is possible that' date=' mechanically, what happened was that Superman managed a reverse even though it LOOKED as if Grundy still had the grab. OTOH the flight was pretty slow which could indicate an advantaged MP slot, or a partially advantaged power.[/quote']

 

But what Advantage?

[Sean Waters]

Re: I've got you

 

Ah, I don't think there is one that fits well at present, we would need a custom one.

 

The only was I could think of doing it, even vaguely, was having flight built as an attack and making the entangle, or the grabbing opponent, fly and, as they are holding you, you come along for the ride! A messy build, but it might just work...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: I've got you

 

So the proposed solutions are:

1) Superman uses a martial escape that doesn't look like an escape

2) He uses an extremely complicated Usable As an Attack Flight build

3) We acknowledge that the RAW prohibition against movement when grabbed/entangled when the target has enough STR to lift the grabber/entangle is wrong.

 

#3 is still lookin' like a winner to me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: I've got you

 

So far, yes, but this is Hero, I'm sure we can come up with more

 

Of course if it is wrong then we have to work out another rule to replace it with...

[Mister E]

Re: I've got you

 

For the purpose of determining the mass of an Entangle described as a block of ice, I'd reference the Entangle's BODY as "Unliving" on the Object BODY Table under Breaking Things in the main book.

[torchwolf]

Re: I've got you

 

Well isn't going with (3) too easy?

 

On the subject of application of Limitation design theory concerning a power's point-of-origin, vs Focus, Gestures, Physical Manifestation, Restrainable, and possibly a few others, all partly overlapping:

 

Sample unusual Flight points of origin (throwing common sense and science out the window):

a) Atlantean royalty with itsy-bitsy ankle wings that can be used in confined spaces, but can also be Grabbed (which causes a fall)

large ethereal wings only affected by Affects Desolid, but still requiring room for wingspan

c) wings temporarily formed by shapeshifters

 

...on that note, cases where flight direction could be affected by being Grabbed (if purchased/defined that way, granted):

d) energy blasts projected from hands, pointed downwards to fly

e) boot jets

f) rotor blade stabilizers

[Sean Waters]

Re: I've got you

 

Good points. Then, of course, we have to also consider the SFX of the entangle. What if, instead of the block of ice, we have a force field: no mass: can anyone move it? No one?

 

What if we have an entangle defined as a gravity trap? A dimensional shift? Paralytic poison? A zero friction field?

 

This is the thing with Hero - the rules for powers don't HAVE to make external sense so long as you are able to modify them to make sense using other rules. They should, however, conform to the most popular sent of defaults and make sense if possible, to avoid necessary tinkering.

 

Gods, I think I am in a zero technology field. nothing is working tonight...