steriaca Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise As far as toting books around' date=' I only have the PDF's right now of the three books I own, and they don't way any more than my Nook book or the laptop I hope to buy. I admit there aren't any gaming groups that do Hero around here that I am aware of, but if I were able to scare up an actual table top game, I would have hard copy carry hard copy versions of the books for convenience's sake I would use most often and leave less used books in electronic format.[/quote'] Laundry Knight has a point. The PDF format for books are 'the future of tabletop gaming'. The weight dosen't mater at all. You just have to have the memory requierments for the device you use. Also, no need to replace the book if pages start to get loose (my APG1 has already got a loose page). The only pain is, how much the main device cost, then can we find someone selling the PDF. So, Hero System Condice in a Nook or Kindel should be doable. I just wish Nitendo offered a PDF reader for the DSi and 3DS... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steriaca Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Another thing to do...put all advantages and limitations in a single chapter. No need to print Charges up in two difrent chapters, even if one says 'Check the Advantages Section'. Powers can keep Adders which are suspeficly for it, but before the advantages and limitations section do 'universal adders' (adders which can apply to 2 or more powers). Many want inclusions of all the advancme powers of the APG books. I don't cair one way or another. Please do think about including some ideas from this section of the web (like my 6ed version of Instant Change, or Boon/Destroy advantage), but only includ them if thay both make sence, do not clutter up the book, and are something players of all genders can use. If it can't measer up to at least one of theas ideas, it can wait till a new APG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kap Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise There's been a recurring suggestion that perhaps the Hero System core rules could benefit from a more concise treatment, similar to how the Hero System Basic Rulebook was done, but including the full rule set (not just the sub-set featured in Basic). I like this idea, simply because I think it would be easier to use a lot of the time. (There have also been suggestions that it might make the Hero System less intimidating to newcomers, and thereby increase the popularity of the game, though I'm personally less convinced on that score.) Therefore, I've been giving some thought to what one might use as guiding principles for such a project. I thought I'd post my take on it, and see what ideas other folks might have. Who knows? If Hero Games ever decides to tackle such a thing, maybe these thoughts will be useful. In no particular order... Don't Anticipate Confusion (aka, "It's Not a FAQ") Don't devote a bunch of words in the core rules to answering unasked questions. Explain the rule clearly, and assume readers will "get it." Will they? Not all of them, not every time. But most will, most of the time. By trying too hard to anticipate all possible questions before they're asked, you end up including a bunch of answers that many/most people would never need. By all means, use those answers somewhere, but have that be in an FAQ file or a "Hero System Companion" book or something. Don't Anticipate Every Possible Permutation It may seem useful in theory to include verbiage describing how, say, Clinging works if you apply Area Of Effect (personal surface - Damage Shield) to it. Trouble is, for the 99% of characters with Clinging that don't have Damage Shield on it, it's just a wasted paragraph. As with the "answering unasked questions" material, this sort of "specific game-element interaction" material can go in some companion volume instead of the core rules. Don't Assume Particular Special Effects Wherever possible, stick to describing what the game mechanic effects are, without offering possible game-world or SFX reasons for choosing those game effects. In other words, assume the readers understand the concept of Reasoning From Effect, and don't bother specifically noting (for example) that Animal Friendship might mean a character has "an innate bond with animals, or a mystical ability to make animals like and respect him." Maybe he does; maybe he doesn't. It doesn't matter. What matters is that the character pays 20 points, and gets the ability to gain an animal’s friendship, teach it a trick, or get it to perform some task, by succeeding with a PRE Roll at +3. Why the character has this ability, how it works for him specifically, or why the animals respond... that's all SFX. Don't Describe What It Isn't Except in the relatively rare case where it's clearly the best way to describe something (such as with, say, Combat Luck), don't bother describing what an ability isn't or what it doesn't do. Don't assume every reader will assume it might do other things you haven't said it does. For example, you don't need to point out that Ambidexterity doesn't allow a character to make multiple attacks. You didn't say it did allow that, so there's no need to assume someone else is going to assume it does. Don't Assume Ill Intent Beyond brief suggestions that a particular ability can affect game balance, so proceed appropriately, the core rules don't really need to warn against the abuse, misuse, or the evils of bad or munchkinny gaming groups. Assume Universal "GM Discretion" Exceptions Don't bother saying -- many times, on dozens of different abilities and rules -- that something is generally a certain way, but that the GM can grant special permission to do it another way. Just say "It works this way," and have it be a universal assumption that the GM can allow anything he wants to allow, disallow anything he wants to disallow, and change anything he wants to change. If that fact is spelled out clearly enough as an axiom of the system, then we don't need to mention it over and over again in specific instances. That's what I've thought of so far. Anyone else have any ideas? I really like points #2, 3, and 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise One book to rule them all. Going Concise and enforcing consistency in the layout (Like having all Advantages and Disadvantages in one place again) you should be able to get 6e down to one book, roughly the size of FRED give or take a few pages here and there. I would be one for a few pages on "There will be Ill Intent.." If anything, to show the prospective GM's some "examples" before Planet Man or Margarita Man stealth into the campaign..... For all the fancier stuff, that's what APG style books are for. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kap Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise To me, this points out the entire "elephant in the room" of the Hero System... the double-edged sword that has both been a financial millstone around the necks of the companies publishing it, and been the main thing that attracted many of its hardcore players to it in the first place and has kept them fiercely loyal to it. Namely, that it has been the "anti-D&D;" that all of the official rules are in the core rulebook(s), and anything in supplements was just that: truly supplemental... something that might be useful, but is not in any way necessary. For Hero System fans, this can be a very cool feature. And indeed, I know many Hero System players for whom this is exactly the case: they've never bought a single Hero System book beyond the core rules. If you understand a genre, you don't need the attendant Genre Book. If you run or play in a homebrewed setting, you don't need a Setting Book. If you have good ideas for powers and gear builds on your own, and don't mind doing them, you don't need a Powers Book or an Equipment Book. If you build your own adversaries, you don't need an Enemies Book. If you create your own adventures, you don't need an Adventure Book. Heck... all of this is probably why the APGs were successful. They were offering something for the "just the toolkit" players to buy to expand their toolkits, rather than stuff built using the existing toolkit (which the "just the toolkit" players would rather build themselves). But obviously, for the company, this can be a less-than-desirable state of affairs. Yes, it means there will always be a market for the core rules. But successfully selling anything other than the core rules gets much dicier. Possible, certainly. But not as clear, and probably a bigger drop-off than many game systems in terms of sales of the main book compared to sales of supplements. (I have absolutely no data to back this up, but I wouldn't be surprised if sales of the core rules for the Hero System outperformed sales for all of the supplements combined. Or at least, for all but the top two or three supplements combined.) Another part of the issue, I suspect, is that the toolkit nature of the system makes it harder to offer books that appeal to players as much as they do GMs. Yes, there are certainly some (APGs, Hero System Martial Arts, Powers/Equipment books (but those run into the "I always build my own" issue with some players), etc.) But Setting Books are largely perceived as being for the GMs who run games in the setting (perhaps not true, but often seen that way). Adventure Books are obviously for GMs; same with Enemies Books. Even Genre Books are perceived by some players as being mostly for GMs, with a lot of the focus on choices about campaign creation and feel, etc. To put it plainly, if D&D3 had included a system for how to build your own Feats and Prestige Classes, and do so in a way that was (more or less) balanced compared to those offered in the books and created by other players, then much of the sales for the countless supplements -- which was largely driven, from what I've seen, by the desire to get the new crunchy bits -- would have dried up... I just use 5th edition (not the revised edition) and none of the extra books to run games...all the rules I need are already there. The only genre book I have is the Champions one by Aaron Alston but I don't really need it, I just enjoyed reading it and some of the ideas were neat. The other genre books don't appeal to me and the settings/enemies/heroes/vehicles/bases/etc. books I don't care about as I only use homemade settings and characters. I would have been more interested in 6th edition if it didn't look like they wanted me to buy 2 books to do what I'm already doing with 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 29, 2012 Report Share Posted January 29, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise I just use 5th edition (not the revised edition) and none of the extra books to run games...all the rules I need are already there. The only genre book I have is the Champions one by Aaron Alston but I don't really need it, I just enjoyed reading it and some of the ideas were neat. The other genre books don't appeal to me and the settings/enemies/heroes/vehicles/bases/etc. books I don't care about as I only use homemade settings and characters. I would have been more interested in 6th edition if it didn't look like they wanted me to buy 2 books to do what I'm already doing with 1. Another good point and one I felt echoed by many of the HERO gamers in this area..... ~Rex....swings the rep stick.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steriaca Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise I defently agree...less books on core rules, more books on settings and adventures and the old 'Enimies' books (hay, remember thoes...thay were the fast way for some newbie to get published in Hero after Adventures Club and before Digital Hero). How many people would love to see an Advance Player's Guide 3? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rstehwien Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise I would have been more interested in 6th edition if it didn't look like they wanted me to buy 2 books to do what I'm already doing with 1. I've bought in heavily to 6E because it had many things I've wanted since 1E (well some of those things I only started wanting as the hobby evolved and I didn't get all the things I've wanted)... but I'd have a hard time selling the 2 books to my players to buy to "try the system". The basic book might be the way to go but it still would be nice to have one book that has it all like I did with 4E and 5E (more for 4E because the book wasn't so intimidating). I defently agree...less books on core rules, more books on settings and adventures and the old 'Enimies' books (hay, remember thoes...thay were the fast way for some newbie to get published in Hero after Adventures Club and before Digital Hero). How many people would love to see an Advance Player's Guide 3? I buy alternate rules books and would dearly love a "Complete/Concise Single Hero System Book" plus a "FAQ + Optional Rules Book(s)" that go more in depth to explanations and rationale. But an APG3... depends on what is in it but yeah I'd probably buy that. I've liked much of what is in the other two. Nice to see how to extend hero. Love to see more exploration of simplified hero (no end for example and how that would effect things like charges and the like) or more on making Skills work like OCV/DCV rolls or Roll High Hero (I was weened on Hero so I get OCV/DCV rolls... but man it is so much harder to explain than OCV+3d6 vs DCV+10 and some people irrationally hate roll low system... I almost do). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steriaca Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Humm... Format ideas anyone? Table of Contex Introduction Chapter 1: Basic Charater Creation. Charatristics. Skills. Perks. Tallents. Complications. Chapter 2: Advance Charater Creation. Powers. Power Adders (which can be applied to 2 or more powers). Power Modifiers (Advantages and Limitations). Power Frameworks. Bases (how to build). Vehicals (how to build). Martial Arts (how to build). Chapter 3: Rules Section. Time And Movement. Combat And Damage. Doing Other Stuff. Chapter 4: Background Stuff. Sample Charaters. Equipment Tables. Vehical Tables. Chapter 5: Where To Next? Min Background On Vareous Parts Of The Hero System Multiverse. The Hero System Discusion Board. Chapter 6: Options. New Charatristics (Santy, Mana, ect). New Skills. New Tallents. New Powers. (note: section 6 is optinal) Apendex 1: short Glosary. Index. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Personally, I would organize it exactly like the HERO System Basic Rulebook is organized, except as follows: Obviously, it would include the complete rule set, not just the Basic Rulebook subset. I'd add an "Axioms of the HERO System" section near the beginning of the book, and gather into it concepts like "the GM can always choose to allow anything that's normally disallowed, or disallow anything that's normally allowed," the separation of Special Effects and game mechanics, the use of Reasoning From Effect to decide on the best game mechanic to choose, etc. The "Advantages" chapter would be renamed "Advantages and Adders," and I would group all Advantages and Adders that can apply to more than one Power there. (The only Advantage or Adders that wouldn't be in this chapter would be those that can only apply to one specific Power; those would be listed with that Power.) Example Powers, Example Characters, Example Combat, the Weapons/Armor tables, and perhaps an abbreviated version of the HERO System Genre By Genre material, would be moved to an "Examples" chapter at the end of the book. This chapter would be pretty brief, with a PDF resource with more examples being available online. The full HERO System Genre By Genre and Changing The System chapters would become PDF extras as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kap Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Humm... Format ideas anyone? Table of Contex Introduction Chapter 1: Basic Charater Creation. Charatristics. Skills. Perks. Tallents. Complications. Chapter 2: Advance Charater Creation. Powers. Power Adders (which can be applied to 2 or more powers). Power Modifiers (Advantages and Limitations). Power Frameworks. Bases (how to build). Vehicals (how to build). Martial Arts (how to build). Chapter 3: Rules Section. Time And Movement. Combat And Damage. Doing Other Stuff. Chapter 4: Background Stuff. Sample Charaters. Equipment Tables. Vehical Tables. Chapter 5: Where To Next? Min Background On Vareous Parts Of The Hero System Multiverse. The Hero System Discusion Board. Chapter 6: Options. New Charatristics (Santy, Mana, ect). New Skills. New Tallents. New Powers. (note: section 6 is optinal) Apendex 1: short Glosary. Index. If it's to be "concise," I'd prefer they left out your idea of "Chapter 5: Where To Next? Min Background On Vareous Parts Of The Hero System Multiverse." A lot of us have no interest whatsoever in the settings created by Hero. Wasted pages for us that could be used on something more useful like examples of character generation for different settings. I'd also prefer to do without the proposed Chapter 6 and just include guidelines on how to build new skills and talents in the sections that cover skills and talents. Other than that it sounds pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kap Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise The PDF format for books are 'the future of tabletop gaming'. Not for me it isn't. I don't intend to stare at a computer during my leisure time any more than I have to. I do enough of it at work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Not for me it isn't. I don't intend to stare at a computer during my leisure time any more than I have to. I do enough of it at work! Likewise. Besides all the other annoying things that come along with having all the pdf infrastructure involved. Frankly I'd rather pay a 100 bucks for a single book, then pay multiples of that for something that can read the silly PDF, then find some place to plug that thing in, to get in the way of everyone else that isn't part of that splinter minority, of a niche minority hobby...... Should companies make PDF's to sell, sure thing it's easy money. Will the PDF be the *cue sound effects* >>FUTURE!!!<< *shrugs* Not gonna happen. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted February 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Will books go away entirely? Probably not. Or at least, probably not soon. But PDFs will continue to get a bigger share of the RPG market, just like e-books and online news continue to take market share away from paper books and newspapers. But it's not "the future;" it's now. Look at the Book of the Empress kickstarter. Almost half of the pledges were for just the PDF. Granted, some of those may ultimately buy a physical copy too, but by and large, I'd say it's an indication that at least a good-sized chunk of the RPG customer base prefers PDF these days... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewomble Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Here's another idea: make a Hero Lite series, with a Fantasy, Pulp, SF and Champions book. Each book consists of the BR with a few tweaks for each genre (e.g. include the Summoning power for the fantasy version) plus 60 pages of genre-specific rules taken from the full genre book. All you need to play each genre in one book. The Champions one would be like having the Big Blue Book again, but smaller and with the superior 6e rules. Sure you could just publish the genre rules and ask people to use it with the BR, but lots of folks like to have a single complete book. And with POD/PDF, there's no need to make a big print run, so it's feasible to make these kind of tailored products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teflon Billy Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Here's another idea: make a Hero Lite series' date=' with a Fantasy, Pulp, SF and Champions book. Each book consists of the BR with a few tweaks for each genre (e.g. include the Summoning power for the fantasy version) plus 60 pages of genre-specific rules taken from the full genre book. All you need to play each genre in one book. The Champions one would be like having the Big Blue Book again, but smaller and with the superior 6e rules. Sure you could just publish the genre rules and ask people to use it with the BR, but lots of folks like to have a single complete book. And with POD/PDF, there's no need to make a big print run, so it's feasible to make these kind of tailored products.[/quote']This has been put forth every single time the issue of changing Hero comes up. It might be great for new players, but it sucks for anyone who gets beyond even the most basic level of being a novice player. 1. You have to keep half a dozen books around for all of the rules 2. It wastes paper/pages by repeating the rules in every single genre book 3. Hero Games needs to reduce the number of books needed to be in print at any one time, printing a half a dozen lite versions of their already existing genre books will not help them 4. POD books in general: suck as far as durability/quality, I would prefer Hero stuck to producing the books the regular way and not go to POD for their products. Can we please stick to the original topic of working through a single concise complete version of the rules. TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shuddemell Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise As a long time printing professional, I would say it is quite likely within the next ten years printed material will be a lot harder to come by. With the skyrocketing cost of paper (we have seen a 225% increase in paper costs in the last 2 years) and the dwindling market of an actual reading public, not to mention the even faster downward spiral in the number of gamers such as ourselves... pdf's (or some other format) will begin to dominate the market more and more. On the positive side, it makes self publishing accessible to anyone with the time and effort to spend, but for retail ventures printing is quickly becoming a losing game. (Which is why I am back in college changing professions.) You only have to see the current state of Hero to realize that this is a large part of the problem, since it certainly isn't a question of quality or value... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted February 2, 2012 Report Share Posted February 2, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise I have some anecdotes (as I'm fond of pointing out, "anecdote" is not the singular form of the word "data", but here goes... ) My wife and I bought our son a Kindle Fire for his birthday last month (actually not quite two months ago). He uses it for fun but is also already using it for homework. I have an iPad with 6E1, 6E2, Fantasy Hero, and a few others loaded. I don't have a problem reading in electronic format, and searching for a particular phrase in PDFs is easy peasy, lemon squeezy. Almost as easy is going to the index, finding the topic, then going right to the page needed. Some schools are buying all of their students iPads to avoid being weighted down with textbooks. I would much rather take my iPad than a lot of books; I've done the "lug every Hero System book I own to the game" thing, back in the ICE Age. It's not possible to do that now, without a PDF library. I'm fine with PDFs. I know not everybody is, but in the history of print PDF is still a brand new technology. I'll bet readers had to adjust when the printing press was new, and the publishing industry was virtually nonexistent until then. This might also point up the need for separate "how to play/how to learn the system" and "reference guide" books for Hero. The basics of how to play could probably fit into 32 pages, with lots of "See Hero System Reference Guide 1 p. 14 for discussion of Characteristics" and "See Hero System Reference Guide 2 p. 237 for the full list of Martial Arts maneuvers". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreadDomain Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise But it's not "the future;" it's now. Look at the Book of the Empress kickstarter. Almost half of the pledges were for just the PDF. Granted, some of those may ultimately buy a physical copy too, but by and large, I'd say it's an indication that at least a good-sized chunk of the RPG customer base prefers PDF these days... Not entirely true. I'd say a sizeable chunk might be people willing to support the project but on willing to shed $50 for a black and white softcover, even more so Canadian or international buyers unwilling to pay for the prohibitive shipping costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted February 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Not entirely true. I'd say a sizeable chunk might be people willing to support the project but on willing to shed $50 for a black and white softcover' date=' even more so Canadian or international buyers unwilling to pay for the prohibitive shipping costs.[/quote'] How does that make it untrue that a good-sized chunk of the RPG customer base prefers PDF? I didn't say half preferred it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted February 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Reading through 6E today, I think I've realized something ironic about this subject... A lot of the material in there that might be pruned out of a "concise" version, is really aimed at less-experienced Hero players. Many examples, answers to questions that may or may not be asked, descriptions of what abilities don't do, and so on. Most of that stuff is much more useful to the relative newcomer than it is to the longtime player. So the very thing that seems to put off many potential newcomers (the length of the rulebooks), largely is the way it is, specifically to assist newcomers. A Hero System Sixth Edition Concise, strictly in terms of function, would actually be more useful to grognards. But those same grognards are also less likely to resist buying the larger books (even if they might prefer the concise approach). So ultimately, the folks who're willing to buy a longer core ruleset are the ones who don't need it and may not particularly want it, and the ones who often won't buy it or are scared off by it, are the ones it's meant for... D'oh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teflon Billy Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Reading through 6E today, I think I've realized something ironic about this subject... A lot of the material in there that might be pruned out of a "concise" version, is really aimed at less-experienced Hero players. Many examples, answers to questions that may or may not be asked, descriptions of what abilities don't do, and so on. Most of that stuff is much more useful to the relative newcomer than it is to the longtime player. So the very thing that seems to put off many potential newcomers (the length of the rulebooks), largely is the way it is, specifically to assist newcomers. A Hero System Sixth Edition Concise, strictly in terms of function, would actually be more useful to grognards. But those same grognards are also less likely to resist buying the larger books (even if they might prefer the concise approach). So ultimately, the folks who're willing to buy a longer core ruleset are the ones who don't need it and may not particularly want it, and the ones who often won't buy it or are scared off by it, are the ones it's meant for... D'oh! In that case I'd rather the rules were in one book and the new players muddle their way through (and hopefully they have a experienced player to hold their hand) than keep the system in its current overly verbose form. TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted February 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise In that case I'd rather the rules were in one book and the new players muddle their way through (and hopefully they have a experienced player to hold their hand) than keep the system in its current overly verbose form. I'd rather that too. But then, we're grognards. That's what I'd expect us to want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise I didn't have any trouble figuring out Champions when I first picked up way back in '82 or so ..... One good example, is better then multiple pages of LCD question Answer was rinse and repeat... Sometimes you gotta just say it. Some Folks are just Dumb. Shouldn't have to torture the 10 Not Dumb people in order to let the 1 Dumb one gimp along and drag everything down to their level..... ~Rex..... Says Concise and Neat need not be unfriendly; over verbosity is easily corrected with a couple of clear concise and neat examples. Champions and HERO has had several examples (ha a repeat) of such, in several editions.... Besides, the single greatest component to getting folks to buy the product (other then a fantastically well run demonstration but that's another thread..) is the GM out there that brings in new people and introduces them to the game. That being said however; if the game is not aimed at him, but rather is designed as some sort of gigantic Gill Net to maybe fish in someone looking through pages here or there, well, that GM is going to Introduce the new players to OLD product the company isn't supporting and or making money on anymore..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Personally' date=' I would organize it exactly like the [b']HERO System Basic Rulebook[/b] is organized, except as follows: I pretty much agree 100% with all of those points. I haven't seen any real disagreement on this thread. Everyone is convinced that the Hero System would benefit from a condensed core rule book. I wonder if there's really anything we can say to the powers that be at Hero Games that would nudge them over to that point of view? (One individual who is new did speak up and say he appreciated the extra hand-holding. That's fine, I'd expect a few positive comments about the current format, at least. I just don't think it obviates the rest of the points in this thread.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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