Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

[gojira]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

I haven't read all the responses yet, but I generally do agree that Hero System seems hampered by the verbosity of its core rule books. At least in my mind.

 

I don't have 6e (other than Basic) to reference, but I think a list of Do's would be handy as well. Some thoughts:

 

Do ask for advice and vetting. -- I think if it's not clear to DOJ what rules need to be cut down, asking the fans would be the next logical step. I see about 4 to 6 folks on these forums that would likely make good consultants for any such effort. People who are playing games and GMing, and have some insight into what needs to be retained and what can be edited out.

 

Do plan for just one rule book. -- I also think that the multiple rule books thing is not working out. I'm talking about Basic vs. Core here. Once Consice comes out, the Basic book should be dropped. All future material should reference the new book. The current full rules can hang around for those who want them, probably as PDFs, but shouldn't be considered "core" any more. The new book will be the core book. In short, if DOJ does decide on a concise edition, they should go for it 100%, not hedge their bets.

 

Do some tactical planning first. -- Someone here mentioned that Savage Worlds sold 400,000 copies of their basic rule book at $10 a pop. I have no idea if that's really true, but if it is it indicates that the RPG market is HUGELY elastic right now. People will spend more money at smaller increments than they will in one large one. I know I dropped a bit of coin over the holidays on Steam sales, all at $1.25 to $5.00 a pop. It's a very interesting marketing scheme at least.

 

Do use the "Limited Power" disadvantage A LOT -- Many of the special cases that are detailed in the core books could be covered by the GM looking at about how limited that power would be in his or her campaign, and just assigning a value. I recall older editions of Hero had a largish chart wilt quite a lot of limitations. They weren't explained or detailed, just listed, a long with a value for the limitation. That could save a lot of space, and give Hero more of a "light-weight" feel.

 

 

More ideas if I can think of them....

[rstehwien]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

Do some tactical planning first. -- Someone here mentioned that Savage Worlds sold 400' date='000 copies of their basic rule book at $10 a pop. I have no idea if that's really true, but if it is it indicates that the RPG market is HUGELY elastic right now. People will spend more money at smaller increments than they will in one large one. I know I dropped a bit of coin over the holidays on Steam sales, all at $1.25 to $5.00 a pop. It's a very interesting marketing scheme at least.[/quote']

It was 40,000 hard copies (not including pdf sales) of the SW Explorers Edition and stated by the pres of the company Shane Lacy Hensley from Pinnacle here:

http://www.happyjacks.org/?p=1125

 

They are almost out of the run of SW Deluxe that came out last year (a few minor changes to rules but none of them have really been new versions of the game). So they are doing well.

 

While I don't like SW (I do like the plot point settings), it is a generic game system targeting multiple genres and the new main book pretty much covers everything but real supers, has tons of equipment, sample characters, bestiary, and a several adventures from different genres. All you need for play just about any genre is in the book but for specific settings you need that book and a setting players guide that may have some setting specific rules.

 

That is what I want from a concise Hero book.

[Tasha]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

As a Replacement for the Core Rules, I would have a slightly more expansive set of requirements. If the book is a replacement for the Basic book it's ok for it to be more cut down. I still would be against cutting any rules, but fluffy explanations and edge cases.

 

I am not really sure that Hero Games is in the financial position to give away a largish book or to sell a book at break even or worse, at a loss. I read an article from Ryan Dancey who used to work for WoTC. WoTC felt that books should cost 5x what they cost to make. That leaves room for production costs (ie Writer, editor and Layout Person also printing), Artwork, Company profits and a Retailer Margin of 40%. So we should keep this in mind as we go forward with this thought balloon. That this like all of our "good ideas" costs money to make.

 

Also if they do a project like this, then 6e1 and 6e2 should stay in print and PDF. Perhaps as a Print on Demand Perfect bound edition in greyscale/black and white?

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

Ok, can we please agree on a fundamental in this discussion?

 

There would be ONE core book and it will have ALL of the rules. No advanced players guide, no stripped down rules, no adjunct rule book with the all of details. Just ONE book, one book to keep in print, one book to buy, etc...

 

Hero needs to make it cheaper to put its books out, not make it ridiculously more expensive by having (by some of these proposals) 4-5 different versions for the standard rules.

 

The Revamped Basic Rules book I was talking about would be nothing more than a first time character creation guide, simple combat example, and maybe short adventure. This should be the freebie,100-120 pages in this scheme. It would require the purchase of the Concise Core Book for real play, but there would be just enough info to make a simple heroic/super level character so people know what steps they need to make their own characters, run a combat round, and do non-combat activities.

 

TB

[thewomble]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

Problem is that it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle. If you put out a new rulebook leaving out some of the current 6e content, and say that this is Hero 6e then people are just going to refer back to their old books anyway.

Hence my suggestion of simply reformatting the 2 volume core into 2 volumes, the first of which is the full rules required to play, and the second of which is for the hardcore. In reality, that second book could be produced as a lower priced B&W softcover and delayed somewhat. Let the BR fade away and leave the APGs be, I don't think they are a problem as they are clearly optional.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

Ok, can we please agree on a fundamental in this discussion?

 

There would be ONE core book and it will have ALL of the rules. No advanced players guide, no stripped down rules, no adjunct rule book with the all of details. Just ONE book, one book to keep in print, one book to buy, etc...

 

Hero needs to make it cheaper to put its books out, not make it ridiculously more expensive by having (by some of these proposals) 4-5 different versions for the standard rules.

 

The Revamped Basic Rules book I was talking about would be nothing more than a first time character creation guide, simple combat example, and maybe short adventure. This should be the freebie,100-120 pages in this scheme. It would require the purchase of the Concise Core Book for real play, but there would be just enough info to make a simple heroic/super level character so people know what steps they need to make their own characters, run a combat round, and do non-combat activities.

 

Can you name a single successful game system in the past, say, decade or two, that has followed this "one book of rules" model? D&D consistently adds rule books. So does Pathfinder. The APG was viewed as a huge risk by Steve (and, I assume, DoJ), and it sold extremely well compared to other products, enough to merit a second APG pretty soon thereafter.

 

I think the model for most games today is to get a single rule book (and D&D even breaks that rule) from which you can play the game, with enough options to make it interesting, and the core concepts of the game covered. Then add on optional rules in future books, whether in an Advanced Rules book, supplements to the existing rules, and new Player Option rules. Adversary books (bestiaries/monster manuals/what have you) seem to be the other big seller. Settings and scenarios have proven less popular to the Hero fanbase, and genre books have proven more popular, but that seems to be "just us" and an Adventure Path structure may have more appeal (but is tougher to frame out without the advantage of knowing 1 to 20 levels is the spread of the game).

 

The old model was to release a lot of games whose rules were little more than a framework D&D in the early '80s had several hardcover books, but it was the exception. Most games had a boxed set with one or two stapled rulebooks (maybe 64 to 96 pages) or just a single book sold on a shelf. If it was successful, supplements like adversary books or scenarios got created, or maybe, for exceptional successes, a Rules Addendum. The big gaming companies didn't release one, or a very few, games and support them heavily. They released a ton of different games, maybe a little support if there was a glimmer of initial success, and then the players and GMs were on their own. Presumably, that model died out for a reason.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

Can you name a single successful game system in the past, say, decade or two, that has followed this "one book of rules" model? D&D consistently adds rule books. So does Pathfinder. The APG was viewed as a huge risk by Steve (and, I assume, DoJ), and it sold extremely well compared to other products, enough to merit a second APG pretty soon thereafter.

 

I think the model for most games today is to get a single rule book (and D&D even breaks that rule) from which you can play the game, with enough options to make it interesting, and the core concepts of the game covered. Then add on optional rules in future books, whether in an Advanced Rules book, supplements to the existing rules, and new Player Option rules. Adversary books (bestiaries/monster manuals/what have you) seem to be the other big seller. Settings and scenarios have proven less popular to the Hero fanbase, and genre books have proven more popular, but that seems to be "just us" and an Adventure Path structure may have more appeal (but is tougher to frame out without the advantage of knowing 1 to 20 levels is the spread of the game).

 

The old model was to release a lot of games whose rules were little more than a framework D&D in the early '80s had several hardcover books, but it was the exception. Most games had a boxed set with one or two stapled rulebooks (maybe 64 to 96 pages) or just a single book sold on a shelf. If it was successful, supplements like adversary books or scenarios got created, or maybe, for exceptional successes, a Rules Addendum. The big gaming companies didn't release one, or a very few, games and support them heavily. They released a ton of different games, maybe a little support if there was a glimmer of initial success, and then the players and GMs were on their own. Presumably, that model died out for a reason.

I'm only talking about the core rule book, as in this is all you need to play the game.

 

I shouldn't have said advanced players guide in there, the current APG's are fine, and I like them alot. I was more referring to having an Advanced Players Guide which is nothing more than only having a Basic Core Book (read: stripped down and missing stuff) and then having an Advanced Core Book (read: everything we cut out) It defeats the whole purpose of making a concise edition of the rules.

 

Concise vehementally does not mean removing ANY rules, it means removing excess verbiage. As I said in my original post, I would actually prefer that they added a few of the more optional rules that are floating around into the Core book. Specifically the Universal Skills and Skill Multipliers in the Ultimate Skill, Object Creation (but remove a lot of the negative wording, it is far too restricted in APGII), and Inner Spaces Powers from APGII.

 

I don't see any reason that all of this couldn't be shoe-horned into one hardcover 350pg book.

 

TB

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

I shouldn't have said advanced players guide in there' date=' the current APG's are fine, and I like them alot. I was more referring to having an Advanced Players Guide which is nothing more than only having a Basic Core Book (read: stripped down and missing stuff) and then having an Advanced Core Book (read: everything we cut out) It defeats the whole purpose of making a concise edition of the rules.[/quote']

 

But some would say a social combat system, martial arts maneuver creation rules, ranged martial arts or any of the numerous other rules appearing outside the HS V1 and 2 are "missing stuff" from the basic core rules. This thread certainly suggests that we can't agree whether a subset of equipment builds are an essential inclusion, much less the extent to which they are necessitated. You note some other "optional rules" that you consider "missing stuff". I suspect there will be someone who perceives anything left out as "missing stuff" not "excess verbiage" or "fluff" or "corner cases". That's how the books got this big to begin with.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

But some would say a social combat system' date=' martial arts maneuver creation rules, ranged martial arts or any of the numerous other rules appearing outside the HS V1 and 2 are "missing stuff" from the basic core rules. This thread certainly suggests that we can't agree whether a subset of equipment builds are an essential inclusion, much less the extent to which they are necessitated. You note some other "optional rules" that you consider "missing stuff". I suspect there will be someone who perceives anything left out as "missing stuff" not "excess verbiage" or "fluff" or "corner cases". That's how the books got this big to begin with.[/quote']Then add those too.

 

Like I said, if you can shoe-horn it into 350pgs, so be it. I was just using those that I mentioned as examples of things that are currently optional, extraneous that I would like to see be optional, core. I was not making an exclusive list of what can only go in the Core book.

 

TB

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

Can you name a single successful game system in the past, say, decade or two, that has followed this "one book of rules" model? D&D consistently adds rule books. So does Pathfinder. The APG was viewed as a huge risk by Steve (and, I assume, DoJ), and it sold extremely well compared to other products, enough to merit a second APG pretty soon thereafter.

 

I think the model for most games today is to get a single rule book (and D&D even breaks that rule) from which you can play the game, with enough options to make it interesting, and the core concepts of the game covered. Then add on optional rules in future books, whether in an Advanced Rules book, supplements to the existing rules, and new Player Option rules. Adversary books (bestiaries/monster manuals/what have you) seem to be the other big seller. Settings and scenarios have proven less popular to the Hero fanbase, and genre books have proven more popular, but that seems to be "just us" and an Adventure Path structure may have more appeal (but is tougher to frame out without the advantage of knowing 1 to 20 levels is the spread of the game).

 

The old model was to release a lot of games whose rules were little more than a framework D&D in the early '80s had several hardcover books, but it was the exception. Most games had a boxed set with one or two stapled rulebooks (maybe 64 to 96 pages) or just a single book sold on a shelf. If it was successful, supplements like adversary books or scenarios got created, or maybe, for exceptional successes, a Rules Addendum. The big gaming companies didn't release one, or a very few, games and support them heavily. They released a ton of different games, maybe a little support if there was a glimmer of initial success, and then the players and GMs were on their own. Presumably, that model died out for a reason.

To me, this points out the entire "elephant in the room" of the Hero System... the double-edged sword that has both been a financial millstone around the necks of the companies publishing it, and been the main thing that attracted many of its hardcore players to it in the first place and has kept them fiercely loyal to it. Namely, that it has been the "anti-D&D;" that all of the official rules are in the core rulebook(s), and anything in supplements was just that: truly supplemental... something that might be useful, but is not in any way necessary.

 

For Hero System fans, this can be a very cool feature. And indeed, I know many Hero System players for whom this is exactly the case: they've never bought a single Hero System book beyond the core rules. If you understand a genre, you don't need the attendant Genre Book. If you run or play in a homebrewed setting, you don't need a Setting Book. If you have good ideas for powers and gear builds on your own, and don't mind doing them, you don't need a Powers Book or an Equipment Book. If you build your own adversaries, you don't need an Enemies Book. If you create your own adventures, you don't need an Adventure Book. Heck... all of this is probably why the APGs were successful. They were offering something for the "just the toolkit" players to buy to expand their toolkits, rather than stuff built using the existing toolkit (which the "just the toolkit" players would rather build themselves).

 

But obviously, for the company, this can be a less-than-desirable state of affairs. Yes, it means there will always be a market for the core rules. But successfully selling anything other than the core rules gets much dicier. Possible, certainly. But not as clear, and probably a bigger drop-off than many game systems in terms of sales of the main book compared to sales of supplements. (I have absolutely no data to back this up, but I wouldn't be surprised if sales of the core rules for the Hero System outperformed sales for all of the supplements combined. Or at least, for all but the top two or three supplements combined.)

 

Another part of the issue, I suspect, is that the toolkit nature of the system makes it harder to offer books that appeal to players as much as they do GMs. Yes, there are certainly some (APGs, Hero System Martial Arts, Powers/Equipment books (but those run into the "I always build my own" issue with some players), etc.) But Setting Books are largely perceived as being for the GMs who run games in the setting (perhaps not true, but often seen that way). Adventure Books are obviously for GMs; same with Enemies Books. Even Genre Books are perceived by some players as being mostly for GMs, with a lot of the focus on choices about campaign creation and feel, etc.

 

To put it plainly, if D&D3 had included a system for how to build your own Feats and Prestige Classes, and do so in a way that was (more or less) balanced compared to those offered in the books and created by other players, then much of the sales for the countless supplements -- which was largely driven, from what I've seen, by the desire to get the new crunchy bits -- would have dried up...

[Dreamstreamer]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

A couple of thoughts I've had as I've read through this thread:

 

The Hero System Core Library is not yet complete. I'm still waiting (perhaps indefinitely) for Hero System Vehicles to finish off the Core Library mentioned in the Introduction of Volume One. Before any further revisions are made to the system, I would like to see the Core Library completed. Then I can feel like I have all of the rules intended for the Hero System Sixth Edition. Once the entire Core Library is complete, then introduce the "concise" version of all of the rules in one book.

 

Of course, there is another point I've been thinking about. References. All current rules references point to volumes one and two. Do you intend to have the references now point to this new book? When will that change be made? For example, rules references from Champions, Fantasy Hero, or Star Hero will need to point to the new core book, right? Will the changes be made on the next printing of those books? What about the current lot? Will people who pick up the new book miss references if they get a first printing of a genre book? It's not a huge deal, but it is inconvenient.

 

To me, what is being presented as a new core book sounds like it would serve better for the next or revised edition of the game. Perhaps it could be called ShREd (Sixth Revised Edition)?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

To me' date=' what is being presented as a new core book sounds like it would serve better for the next or revised edition of the game. Perhaps it could be call ShREd (Sixth Revised Edition)?[/quote']That could be. Really, this thread is just for folks to sound off about what sorts of considerations they'd like to see in a concise edition of the full core rules if the folks who own and control publication of the system ever decide to do such a project. (Whenever and whyever that might be...)

[torchwolf]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

The following is just an idea based on recurring requests for a condensed "intermediate" rules version.

I think there may be a way to produce a condensed rules set containing all the rules and some options for using it with specific genres while avoiding the problems with issuing yet another rules set version.

 

Hero System Basic Rulebook Companion (BRC).

This would contain condensed descriptions of what's in 6E1 and 6E2 but didn't fit into BR (such as some Power Modifiers, full rules for Frameworks, and Equipment rules), plus possibly snippets (most likely "how-to-build" sections or templates) from the rest of the Core library (Bestiary, Equipment Guide, Grimoire, Martial Arts).

That would give buyers of BR access to all options of the Core Rules and provide a full condensed version of the rules but still not be extensive enough to replace the "full toolkit" that 6E1+6E2 and the rest of the Core library is.

I imagine this could be squeezed into 64 or possibly 128 pages (or 136 as the BR).

 

Perhaps most importantly, BRC would not replace any book already in print, but would only give BR+BRC buyers access to all aspects of the Genre Books and the APGs.

 

Possible negative impact: this book could potentially damage sales of 6E1 and 6E2.

(originally posted this in the fairly inappropriate "Changes At Hero" thread in an exceptional case of bad timing in the wrong forum)

[gojira]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

As a Replacement for the Core Rules' date=' I would have a slightly more expansive set of requirements. If the book is a replacement for the Basic book it's ok for it to be more cut down. I still would be against cutting any rules, but fluffy explanations and edge cases.[/quote']

 

 

Yes, cutting "edge cases" would be the key. I have a couple in mind, personally, but only a couple, and I wouldn't want to see any kind of substantial removal of rules, just trim things down so options that are very situational (by genre or usefulness) would be removed from the core book. Not removed permanently, pre se, but just dropped from the set of rules that everybody buys.

 

 

 

I wonder if anyone would care to suggest some edge cases?

 

 

Personally, the biggest offender for me was Linked Power. Everything after the first paragraph is suspect. Linking a higher cost power to a lower cost one is kinda cheesy, and should only happen in certain genres. And even then only in specific cases. I think the whole Linked Power at the -1/4 level was designed with fantasy poisons in mind anyway, and I don't see too much use outside of that. Certainly in superhero genres it looks like pure cheese to me.

 

I'd condense the whole bit after the first paragraph to just a few sentences. "With the GMs explicit permission, a player may link a power to a lower cost power. This should only be done if the SFX of the powers involved requires it, as the result is usually quite overpowered for the point cost. Hero System genre books will detail any standard powers that require Linked at the -1/4 level. Usually this is only at the lower power level genres where point caps and the genre keep this option in check, and almost never at the super heroic levels and above."

 

There, two pages crammed into four sentences. The option is still there, but all of the verbosity is gone.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

The following is just an idea based on recurring requests for a condensed "intermediate" rules version.

I think there may be a way to produce a condensed rules set containing all the rules and some options for using it with specific genres while avoiding the problems with issuing yet another rules set version.

 

Hero System Basic Rulebook Companion (BRC).

This would contain condensed descriptions of what's in 6E1 and 6E2 but didn't fit into BR (such as some Power Modifiers, full rules for Frameworks, and Equipment rules), plus possibly snippets (most likely "how-to-build" sections or templates) from the rest of the Core library (Bestiary, Equipment Guide, Grimoire, Martial Arts).

That would give buyers of BR access to all options of the Core Rules and provide a full condensed version of the rules but still not be extensive enough to replace the "full toolkit" that 6E1+6E2 and the rest of the Core library is.

I imagine this could be squeezed into 64 or possibly 128 pages (or 136 as the BR).

 

Perhaps most importantly, BRC would not replace any book already in print, but would only give BR+BRC buyers access to all aspects of the Genre Books and the APGs.

 

Possible negative impact: this book could potentially damage sales of 6E1 and 6E2.

(originally posted this in the fairly inappropriate "Changes At Hero" thread in an exceptional case of bad timing in the wrong forum)

I think at this point it would be better for Hero to reduce the number of books needed to be in print but without removing available content to the consumers.

 

Which is why I advocate making one Core Concise Rulebook, and a free give-away pdf Basic Hero Starters Guide, and eliminate 6e1/2 and the HRB. But keep 6e1/2 available as pdfs for purchase in the Online Store.

 

Only need to keep one book in print after that, instead of three.

 

TB

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

Yes, cutting "edge cases" would be the key. I have a couple in mind, personally, but only a couple, and I wouldn't want to see any kind of substantial removal of rules, just trim things down so options that are very situational (by genre or usefulness) would be removed from the core book. Not removed permanently, pre se, but just dropped from the set of rules that everybody buys.

 

I wonder if anyone would care to suggest some edge cases?

 

Personally, be biggest offender for me was Linked Power. Everything after the first paragraph is suspect. Linking a lower cost power to a higher cost one is kinda cheesy, and should only happen in certain genres. And even then only in specific cases. I think the whole Linked Power at the -1/4 level was designed with fantasy poisons in mind anyway, and I don't see too much use outside of that. Certainly in superhero genres it looks like pure cheese to me.

 

I'd condense the whole bit after the first paragraph to just a few sentences. "With the GMs explicit permission, a player may link a power to a lower cost power. This should only be done if the SFX of the powers involved requires it, as the result is usually quite overpowered for the point cost. Hero System genre books will detail any standard powers that require Linked at the -1/4 level. Usually this is only at the lower power level genres where point caps and the genre keep this option in check, and almost never at the super heroic levels and above."

 

There, two pages crammed into four sentences. The option is still there, but all of the verbosity is gone.

I would advocate removing nothing, but carry on with this kind of editing.

 

In your example above, I would just phrase it "With GMs permission, lower cost power may be linked at the -1/4 level."

 

No need to say "explicit" it's redundant in the context, and the rest of what you wrote is all play-style editorializing and not necessary; it's for the GM in their campaign to express these concerns."

 

With that, there is no need to imply that you've held back rules and are requiring them to buy another book to use all of the rules and you are not coming across quite so negatively, which in RPG writing is very off-putting IMO. It's part of the reason I don't like the Create Object write-up in APGII, even though I love the power.

 

TB

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

I may be retreading information, but as someone who is new the system (I have only recently bought the two core books and Champions supplement), maybe, I can add some perspective to the discussion. As a new participant, I do need a little more hand holding than someone who has been playing the system since its inception; so, I appreciate the redundant example of the core system. Also, as a new customer, I neither know all of the additional supplements I will need or want to fulfill my aims with the system, nor do I have the finances to plunk down the money to buy every supplement that will be useful; so, having tidbits of additional information regarding the various subsystems like Star Hero, Fantasy Hero, and such at least puts me in the ballpark until I can acquire the supplements I want.

 

I certainly would like a means to get everything in one cheap and convenient package, but I am also a realist and know that for the Hero System to survive the owning company, Hero Games, must thrive, and game companies thrive mostly by selling addition supplements and probably make very little profit on the core books or at least not enough to survive by only selling the core books.

[phoenix240]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

There's been a recurring suggestion that perhaps the Hero System core rules could benefit from a more concise treatment, similar to how the Hero System Basic Rulebook was done, but including the full rule set (not just the sub-set featured in Basic). I like this idea, simply because I think it would be easier to use a lot of the time. (There have also been suggestions that it might make the Hero System less intimidating to newcomers, and thereby increase the popularity of the game, though I'm personally less convinced on that score.)

 

Therefore, I've been giving some thought to what one might use as guiding principles for such a project. I thought I'd post my take on it, and see what ideas other folks might have. Who knows? If Hero Games ever decides to tackle such a thing, maybe these thoughts will be useful.

 

In no particular order...

 

 

• Don't Anticipate Confusion (aka, "It's Not a FAQ") Don't devote a bunch of words in the core rules to answering unasked questions. Explain the rule clearly, and assume readers will "get it." Will they? Not all of them, not every time. But most will, most of the time. By trying too hard to anticipate all possible questions before they're asked, you end up including a bunch of answers that many/most people would never need. By all means, use those answers somewhere, but have that be in an FAQ file or a "Hero System Companion" book or something.
  

 

 

• Don't Anticipate Every Possible Permutation It may seem useful in theory to include verbiage describing how, say, Clinging works if you apply Area Of Effect (personal surface - Damage Shield) to it. Trouble is, for the 99% of characters with Clinging that don't have Damage Shield on it, it's just a wasted paragraph. As with the "answering unasked questions" material, this sort of "specific game-element interaction" material can go in some companion volume instead of the core rules.
  

 

 

• Don't Assume Particular Special Effects Wherever possible, stick to describing what the game mechanic effects are, without offering possible game-world or SFX reasons for choosing those game effects. In other words, assume the readers understand the concept of Reasoning From Effect, and don't bother specifically noting (for example) that Animal Friendship might mean a character has "an innate bond with animals, or a mystical ability to make animals like and respect him." Maybe he does; maybe he doesn't. It doesn't matter. What matters is that the character pays 20 points, and gets the ability to gain an animal’s friendship, teach it a trick, or get it to perform some task, by succeeding with a PRE Roll at +3. Why the character has this ability, how it works for him specifically, or why the animals respond... that's all SFX.
  

 

 

• Don't Describe What It Isn't Except in the relatively rare case where it's clearly the best way to describe something (such as with, say, Combat Luck), don't bother describing what an ability isn't or what it doesn't do. Don't assume every reader will assume it might do other things you haven't said it does. For example, you don't need to point out that Ambidexterity doesn't allow a character to make multiple attacks. You didn't say it did allow that, so there's no need to assume someone else is going to assume it does.
  

 

 

• Don't Assume Ill Intent Beyond brief suggestions that a particular ability can affect game balance, so proceed appropriately, the core rules don't really need to warn against the abuse, misuse, or the evils of bad or munchkinny gaming groups.
  

 

 

• Assume Universal "GM Discretion" Exceptions Don't bother saying -- many times, on dozens of different abilities and rules -- that something is generally a certain way, but that the GM can grant special permission to do it another way. Just say "It works this way," and have it be a universal assumption that the GM can allow anything he wants to allow, disallow anything he wants to disallow, and change anything he wants to change. If that fact is spelled out clearly enough as an axiom of the system, then we don't need to mention it over and over again in specific instances.
  

 

 

That's what I've thought of so far. Anyone else have any ideas?

 

I like them but I am a little dubious about the last "Assume Universal GM's Discretion" after seeing some huge debates/flame wars over whether a GM/groups could change things or make exceptions. There does seem to be a unfortunte tendency to treat rule books as holy writ. :-/

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

Come to think of it. I could use without the explanations of what a rpg is, industry wide vocabulary, or how dice work. It's not like I thought I was buying history books or anything.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

I like them but I am a little dubious about the last "Assume Universal GM's Discretion" after seeing some huge debates/flame wars over whether a GM/groups could change things or make exceptions. There does seem to be a unfortunte tendency to treat rule books as holy writ. :-/

And among those sorts of people' date=' that will always happen, regardless of what the rulebooks say. I'm just saying that, from a presentation standpoint, it would save some space and repetition if, instead of saying "This isn't normally allowed, but you could do it this way with GM permission" 500 times in various places throughout the books, they just made it clear once (very early on) that [b']anything[/b] can be allowed or disallowed with GM permission, then don't keep repeating it.

 

Plus, I do think there's value in the expert commentary on which things you might want to exercise GM permission on, what the benefits and pitfalls might be of allowing or changing some particular game element, and so on. I just think that stuff might go better in a companion book, rather than in the core rules.

[sinanju]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

I'll add my voice to those crying for ONE big book with ALL the rules. Toting two college textbook-sized hardbound books around to the weekly Champions game gets to be a pain. As does inevitably finding that whatever rule I want/need to look up is in the OTHER book.

 

So: one large tome with all the rules. A couple of pages at the beginning explicitly spelling out that GM's are always free to revamp the rules for their games as they please, and that if a power description doesn't EXPLICITLY give you an ability, believing that it does is an assumption on your part. And you should check with your GM about such things. That a GM can and should (and sometimes must) make judgment calls to avoid unbalanced effects that might be rules-legal but will hamper everyone's fun.

 

NO OTHER immense hardbound tomes. If you WANT to carry around an additional half dozen softbound supplemental books, fine. But you should be able to play the game (create characters, build equipment/spells/powers/whatever, adjudicate combat and caucus with the other players/GM on exactly how a given rule works) with that one core book.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

NO OTHER immense hardbound tomes. If you WANT to carry around an additional half dozen softbound supplemental books' date=' fine. But you should be able to play the game (create characters, build equipment/spells/powers/whatever, adjudicate combat and caucus with the other players/GM on exactly how a given rule works) with that one core book.[/quote']And here's the conundrum of the Hero System in a nutshell. What appeals to (many of) the fans -- One Book Is All You Need -- is problematic for the company (who succeeds by selling books)...

[gojira]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

Right, and I also think most folks here are talking about one medium sized rule book, not one single "large/big" tome. Maybe that's just different choices of words, rather than true semantic differences, but I thought I'd point out the dichotomy.

 

Totally agree that pleasing *everyone* is hard. Picking the compromises is hard too.

[sinanju]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

And here's the conundrum of the Hero System in a nutshell. What appeals to (many of) the fans -- One Book Is All You Need -- is problematic for the company (who succeeds by selling books)...

 

Oh, I've bought plenty of books. Ultimate Metamorph, Ultimate Brick, Powers Database, Hudson City, Teen Champions, Champions, Dark Champions, etc. And I would again.

 

But I use those mostly when I'm designing campaigns or building characters. I want to be able to travel to a friend's house for a game of Champions and only NEED the one core rule book. I I also bring the appropriate supplement (campaign setting book, Ultimate Whatever, etc) in addition, that's fine. But I don't have to cart around two immense hardbound volumes just to play the game.

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

As far as toting books around, I only have the PDF's right now of the three books I own, and they don't way any more than my Nook book or the laptop I hope to buy. I admit there aren't any gaming groups that do Hero around here that I am aware of, but if I were able to scare up an actual table top game, I would have hard copy carry hard copy versions of the books for convenience's sake I would use most often and leave less used books in electronic format.