RexMundi Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Just think, you could put the "Not safe for NOOBS!" on the front cover! ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steriaca Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise If we can condence the book down extremly well, would that make more room for things from the APGs and HSMA (and other rules which not eveyone plays with, but are useful to play with, like the Sanity stat)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Nah see that's the thing, you don't want the Extra's in there for the main set. You save that optional stuff for the optional books otherwise you're back to bloated and not used often..... ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Yeah, that's how I feel too. What gets taken out of 6ec could be added later to a new APG book. I.e., something to be used optionally. But the new core rules should spare players, esp. new players, from the very large number of options that are available in Hero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teflon Billy Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Nah see that's the thing, you don't want the Extra's in there for the main set. You save that optional stuff for the optional books otherwise you're back to bloated and not used often..... ~Rex I disagree, if it can fit (being less than 300-350pgs) then put it in. Reduce the number of books, increase the overall crunch content, and cut out the verboseness. Particularly, nothing should be cut out of 6eV1-2 for the purpose of putting into another book. It should either be cut and be done with or reworded so that it takes up less space but still stay in the book. TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted February 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise I disagree, if it can fit (being less than 300-350pgs) then put it in. Reduce the number of books, increase the overall crunch content, and cut out the verboseness. Particularly, nothing should be cut out of 6eV1-2 for the purpose of putting into another book. It should either be cut and be done with or reworded so that it takes up less space but still stay in the book. I don't agree at all. My thought is that I want the core rules to be the reference book for the rules engine. Right now, 6E1 & 6E2 are sort of trying to be multiple things at once. They're simultaneously trying to be that reference book, plus a guide to character building (advice and examples, etc.), plus a guide to game mastering (all the stuff about precisely how this power interacts with that one is the sort of thing that matters to the GM, plus of course, the campaign building info, the toolkitting information, etc.). I'd like to see the core rules be just the reference book, but that doesn't mean all the other stuff has no value. I see nothing at all wrong with pulling a lot of the "how to play and build characters" stuff into a Player's Guide, and a lot of the "how to run and design campaigns" stuff into a GM's Guide. Not the rules, mind you. All the rules should be in the core book. But there's a lot of non-rules stuff in 6E1 and 6E2, and I certainly wouldn't suggest that that material is bad or has no value. Just because I'd ideally like to see it pulled out of the core rules doesn't mean I think it should go away. I'd just like to see it somewhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise I don't agree at all. My thought is that I want the core rules to be the reference book for the rules engine. Right now, 6E1 & 6E2 are sort of trying to be multiple things at once. They're simultaneously trying to be that reference book, plus a guide to character building (advice and examples, etc.), plus a guide to game mastering (all the stuff about precisely how this power interacts with that one is the sort of thing that matters to the GM, plus of course, the campaign building info, the toolkitting information, etc.). I'd like to see the core rules be just the reference book, but that doesn't mean all the other stuff has no value. I see nothing at all wrong with pulling a lot of the "how to play and build characters" stuff into a Player's Guide, and a lot of the "how to run and design campaigns" stuff into a GM's Guide. Not the rules, mind you. All the rules should be in the core book. But there's a lot of non-rules stuff in 6E1 and 6E2, and I certainly wouldn't suggest that that material is bad or has no value. Just because I'd ideally like to see it pulled out of the core rules doesn't mean I think it should go away. I'd just like to see it somewhere else. I agree. Making a clear distinction between the "Player's Rulebook" (which flows into the Advanced Player's Guide) and a "Game Master's Rulebook" would make it easier to then create an Advanced Game Master's Guide (which is something I suspect a lot of folks would buy). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teflon Billy Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise I don't agree at all. My thought is that I want the core rules to be the reference book for the rules engine. Right now, 6E1 & 6E2 are sort of trying to be multiple things at once. They're simultaneously trying to be that reference book, plus a guide to character building (advice and examples, etc.), plus a guide to game mastering (all the stuff about precisely how this power interacts with that one is the sort of thing that matters to the GM, plus of course, the campaign building info, the toolkitting information, etc.). I'd like to see the core rules be just the reference book, but that doesn't mean all the other stuff has no value. I see nothing at all wrong with pulling a lot of the "how to play and build characters" stuff into a Player's Guide, and a lot of the "how to run and design campaigns" stuff into a GM's Guide. Not the rules, mind you. All the rules should be in the core book. But there's a lot of non-rules stuff in 6E1 and 6E2, and I certainly wouldn't suggest that that material is bad or has no value. Just because I'd ideally like to see it pulled out of the core rules doesn't mean I think it should go away. I'd just like to see it somewhere else. As always, when I referenced not pulling things out, those "things" are rules, powers, game options, etc... I absolutely agree with you that we should excise anything and everything that deals with campaigning, play style, etc... I think there should be a minimalist amount of character creation advise (nothing more step by step directions/checklist to ensure you don't miss anything). Anything dealing with advise for creating a character should go into that PDF I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. The freebie that would be both a character creation guide (but still require owning the Concise Rulebook) and an introductory adventure to fully explain how Hero System combat works and to provide a fun module for new groups to play their first time out (two adventures actually: a Champions adventure (to demonstrate Superpowered combat) and a Fantasy adventure (to demonstrate a heroic combat though still fantastical to demonstrate the interaction of powers at the heroic level)) But if we go fully down this road we should actually have a little bit of space to slip in some of the stuff from APGI&II or other sources, that isn't optional rules so much as rules expansion. My criteria would be if it can be added without altering the rest of the rules (such as including a new Power such as Object Creation, or a new Characteristic such as Sanity rules) then it should be seriously considered for inclusion. If it involves anything similar to: Or as an alternative set of rules... (such as the alternate strength tables, jumping tables, etc... for grittier heroic level stuff. Don't get me wrong, perfectly fine option, but that is the type of thing for an APG) then leave that out. TB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steriaca Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Humm...any ideal about this being the next project from Hero (well, let's say after the long promoused but so far not delivered Profit And Purity book about ARGENT and IHA)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Just pointing out that a discussion on how to make Hero concise is now running to 6 pages and 85 posts. There may be certain natural barriers to simplicity in the Hero psyche... One point that may have been mentioned is that I think that the philospohy (if that is indeed the right word) behind a game's design is vital to a proper understanding of how you should take decisions in marginal cases. Part of the problem with simplifying Hero is that there are some inherent contradictions in the system. I am not sure these can easily be resolved, but they tend to require extra clarification as they are not explicit. We have debated before, for example, whether Hero is or should be based on arithmetical or a geometric progression and the fact is that it is a bit of both, because going all one way or all another makes it difficult to play. There are also a number of rules that seem to be there to bring balance to play and for very little other reason (for example the fact that even when Hulk has NightCrawler in a death-grip, he still has to roll to hit to damage him), and we've debated that too. I think that the game has to trust the players more. By all means say, once, at the beginning, that some rules may make certain combinations of powers apparently over-useful and this can be addressed by house rules or 'Hero balance' book at some point, but that we are not trying to cover everything because there is not space to do so. Say it once though. At the beginning. Once, OK? I'm pretty sure that a radical re-think of the presentation rules of play can reduce a lot of concepts to pretty basic principles that then do not need repeating, but there will always be difficult aareas that need more explanation than you ever thought possible (I have a little project in teh works that demonstrated that to me recently - I will post it when it is ready - in about 2019, the way things are going). I'll tell you what I really think will simplify the rules though: get rid of character creation, or massively simplify it*. I know, I know, I know...but: 1. It creates much more of a market for written supplements and scenarios. 2. You can sell the character creation bit separately. I still remember when all the genre books presented a set of rules in the book itself (and they were all less than half the thickness of either of the current core rule books) that covered everything you needed and flavoured the game to that genre. There are advantages to that approach both commercially and stylistically. Anyway, my point is we are on page 6 already. Carry on... *Yes you can: you can create progression trees and such, or even something like a level based system, or just a book of characters and a radically different experience system - many fictional characters do not seem to gain 'experience' but start at the pealk of their powers and stay there. XP is possibly an outmoded idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise The game really hasn't changed substantially since 4th Edition, and that book's only 220 pages including the character sheet and index. I never did understand the need to add 500 pages to elaborate on anything, or even go to the extent 5th did. A set of 256 page books would have been a lot easier to digest. The presentation in 4th was good, and had enough examples to get you started. Campaign books, Ultimate XXXX books, and APGs can do the rest of the explaining. So, instead of 300-350 pages, I'm suggesting a target of 256 pages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Humm...any ideal about this being the next project from Hero (well' date=' let's say after the long promoused but so far not delivered [b']Profit And Purity[/b] book about ARGENT and IHA)? You'll get P&P before you see a concise rules book, I think. Edit: To state the obvious: You aren't getting a P&P book any time soon, either. Probably never ago, from Steve's comments on another thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Another thing to do...put all advantages and limitations in a single chapter. No need to print Charges up in two difrent chapters' date=' even if one says 'Check the Advantages Section'.[/quote'] Especially in the modern age of hyper-text. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted July 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Arise, O ancient and hoary thread! I just wanted to make sure everyone who followed or participated in this discussion was aware of the forthcoming Champions Complete book, because Champions Complete is HERO System Sixth Edition Concise. Yes, it also contains genre information on comic book superheroics, and the example powers and such in the book focus on those, but the rules engine section of the book is exactly the product discussed in this thread. It's the full game system, condensed into less space and fewer words. So if you were hoping to see HERO System Sixth Edition Concise, you get your wish! And you also get some superhero genre material to go with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rstehwien Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Excellent, I'll pick up one or two. Don't really plan on using it for Superhero games but a concise writeup with all the rules is exactly what I want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barwickian Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Sign me up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gallandro Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Thank you Derek! This is exactly what Hero needs to be competitive in the RPG market... a throwback to the BBB is just what the doctor ordered and could very well save Hero Games and make it viable, introducing new legions of fan to Hero! Thanks guys, Yancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise OK, nice. I've resisted picking up both the 6e rule books and 6e Champions (mostly owing to lack of current gaming), so this is a definite possibility to see how that book works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Oh. HERO System 6th Edition 978-1-58366-145-1 HERO2000 Author: Derek Hiemforth Someone has been busy. I thought you'd been showing up around here less lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted July 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Heh. And to be clear, when I started this thread, this project was not underway. I was honestly just what-iffing and wouldn't it be nicing. It just so happened that the opportunity arose to do something toward helping it happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Count me in for at least 6 copies. Maybe another 6 after that waiting on word back for care package requests. Want to have a lot of fun with it, lets have a contest for doing the cover. ~Rex...has a thought.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise I assume it's Champions in the sense that it is a superhero genre book, not the Champions setting, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted July 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise I assume it's Champions in the sense that it is a superhero genre book' date=' not the Champions setting, correct?[/quote'] It's like 6E1, 6E2, and Champions 6E all condensed down into one 240-page book, with the rules presented in a manner similar to the straightforward manner of Basic. So this book essentially replaces all four of those books in the Hero Games product line. So yes it's a superhero genre book, but it's also the rules engine. If you're familiar with 4th Edition Hero, you can think of Champions Complete as "The BBB for Sixth Edition." It's not a setting book, and doesn't replace Champions Universe or any of the Champions Villains books. However, the examples in the book, including example heroes and villains, are all from the Champions Universe. So it refers to CU, but doesn't require it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Welcome to the honored list of HERO core book authors, Derek. You've earned it, and we thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise Arise, O ancient and hoary thread! I just wanted to make sure everyone who followed or participated in this discussion was aware of the forthcoming Champions Complete book, because Champions Complete is HERO System Sixth Edition Concise. Yes, it also contains genre information on comic book superheroics, and the example powers and such in the book focus on those, but the rules engine section of the book is exactly the product discussed in this thread. It's the full game system, condensed into less space and fewer words. So if you were hoping to see HERO System Sixth Edition Concise, you get your wish! And you also get some superhero genre material to go with it. Congrats. I bow before your awesomeness and admit that I was completely wrong. They obviously did pay to have someone edit down 6e 1&2 down to something concise. Tasha. Also, I was planning on running a Champions demo at my FLGS. I will now wait for ChampsComplete to ship before I run that. So that I can help the store owner sell a bunch of the new books. (not to mention the one that I will be ordering when it comes available here on the webstore). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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