Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

[Derek Hiemforth]

UPDATE: This project has happened! See this post for more information!

 

 

There's been a recurring suggestion that perhaps the Hero System core rules could benefit from a more concise treatment, similar to how the Hero System Basic Rulebook was done, but including the full rule set (not just the sub-set featured in Basic). I like this idea, simply because I think it would be easier to use a lot of the time. (There have also been suggestions that it might make the Hero System less intimidating to newcomers, and thereby increase the popularity of the game, though I'm personally less convinced on that score.)

 

Therefore, I've been giving some thought to what one might use as guiding principles for such a project. I thought I'd post my take on it, and see what ideas other folks might have. Who knows? If Hero Games ever decides to tackle such a thing, maybe these thoughts will be useful.

 

In no particular order...

 

 

• Don't Anticipate Confusion (aka, "It's Not a FAQ") Don't devote a bunch of words in the core rules to answering unasked questions. Explain the rule clearly, and assume readers will "get it." Will they? Not all of them, not every time. But most will, most of the time. By trying too hard to anticipate all possible questions before they're asked, you end up including a bunch of answers that many/most people would never need. By all means, use those answers somewhere, but have that be in an FAQ file or a "Hero System Companion" book or something.
  

 

 

• [*]

Don't Anticipate Every Possible Permutation It may seem useful in theory to include verbiage describing how, say, Clinging works if you apply Area Of Effect (personal surface - Damage Shield) to it. Trouble is, for the 99% of characters with Clinging that don't have Damage Shield on it, it's just a wasted paragraph. As with the "answering unasked questions" material, this sort of "specific game-element interaction" material can go in some companion volume instead of the core rules.

 

 

• Don't Assume Particular Special Effects Wherever possible, stick to describing what the game mechanic effects are, without offering possible game-world or SFX reasons for choosing those game effects. In other words, assume the readers understand the concept of Reasoning From Effect, and don't bother specifically noting (for example) that Animal Friendship might mean a character has "an innate bond with animals, or a mystical ability to make animals like and respect him." Maybe he does; maybe he doesn't. It doesn't matter. What matters is that the character pays 20 points, and gets the ability to gain an animal’s friendship, teach it a trick, or get it to perform some task, by succeeding with a PRE Roll at +3. Why the character has this ability, how it works for him specifically, or why the animals respond... that's all SFX.
  

 

 

• Don't Describe What It Isn't Except in the relatively rare case where it's clearly the best way to describe something (such as with, say, Combat Luck), don't bother describing what an ability isn't or what it doesn't do. Don't assume every reader will assume it might do other things you haven't said it does. For example, you don't need to point out that Ambidexterity doesn't allow a character to make multiple attacks. You didn't say it did allow that, so there's no need to assume someone else is going to assume it does.
  

 

 

• Don't Assume Ill Intent Beyond brief suggestions that a particular ability can affect game balance, so proceed appropriately, the core rules don't really need to warn against the abuse, misuse, or the evils of bad or munchkinny gaming groups.
  

 

 

• Assume Universal "GM Discretion" Exceptions Don't bother saying -- many times, on dozens of different abilities and rules -- that something is generally a certain way, but that the GM can grant special permission to do it another way. Just say "It works this way," and have it be a universal assumption that the GM can allow anything he wants to allow, disallow anything he wants to disallow, and change anything he wants to change. If that fact is spelled out clearly enough as an axiom of the system, then we don't need to mention it over and over again in specific instances.
  

 

 

That's what I've thought of so far. Anyone else have any ideas?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

Put all advantages, and all limitations, in one section. If a given advantage applies only to one type of power (eg. Adjustment powers), maybe the section is "Adjustment power advantages" or you simply say "Adjustment powers with this advantage...".

 

Similar to Derek's Assume Universal "GM Discretion" Exceptions, cover the overview axioms first, then move into the detail without repeating the core axioms. Only address them if the specific item is an exception, rather than an application of the axiom.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

Put all advantages, and all limitations, in one section. If a given advantage applies only to one type of power (eg. Adjustment powers), maybe the section is "Adjustment power advantages" or you simply say "Adjustment powers with this advantage...".

 

Similar to Derek's Assume Universal "GM Discretion" Exceptions, cover the overview axioms first, then move into the detail without repeating the core axioms. Only address them if the specific item is an exception, rather than an application of the axiom.

I love both of those. Definitely agreed, on both counts.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

I'd rep you if I could, Derek, but alas, the system won't let me. This is one Kickstarter project that I'd gladly support for multiple copies. Hugh, Rep's on the way.

 

JoeG

[Beast]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

I would start with how boiled down HSB is and add the missing stuff in that format

I would add the full Martial arts maneuvers and how to build them leave the styles,weapons,special/magical/mystical maneuvers for the genre books

if needed examples would be in a FAQ online

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

I whole heartedly agree,

 

I think it would be awesome if DoJ could boil HSv1&2 down to one 300-350 page book, hard bind it and have that as the standard edition of the rules using the criteria you layed out above. I honestly think, you could incorporate a few of the optional rules that are REALLY useful from APGI&II and the Revised Ultimate Skill (the extra Universals, and Skill Multipliers) and still come in under the page limit.

 

I think using the 6th Edition Champions Hardcover or Star Hero as the template should be the goal for size and presentation.

 

I think something to add to this, would be a simple, step-by-step, guide to character creation and How to Run a Hero Game (using the simplest of rules, but not stripped/gutted, examples to demonstrate an in combat encounter and out of combat encouter.) And have this be a downloadable PDF freebie. It shouldn't have anything but maybe the Characteristic Tables, and the names of all of the powers, but it should be written such that you MUST have the new BBB to actually create a character. Maybe even throw in a 20-25page adventure at the end. The whole thing shouldn't be more than 128-160 pages (whatever the nearest standard paperback book size for Print On Demand.)

 

TB

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

Excellent idea. What I would like to see are all the rules, as you've described, outlined in a single book. Then put all of the exception noting and esoteric applications of powers into a single APG. I think this could fit into a single 256 page book, if not smaller. I am having a hard time articulating this, but what I would like to see is a rulebook + a reference guide. The rulebook includes all the powers, but with just their stated effects and summary -- the essentials you need to know in order to understand the mechanics of the power and how much it costs. The reference guide is essentially what's already in Volume 1 -- it's a book you go to when you want to explore a power, think about its impact, and review any exceptions or fringe cases.

 

If you look at the Basic Rulebook it already does this very well, and with a few more additions would be complete.

 

Campaign Quick Starts could be used to then provide an easy understanding of how to do GenreX without cluttering up the rulebook. CQS come in 2 parts: player and GM. The player portion is free in PDF form and includes campaign guidelines, equipment, templates, etc. The GM portion has a price associated with it and includes an adventure plus additional discussion of key rules as they apply to the adventure.

 

This way every player can have a copy of the rules as well as the basics of how to make a character for the campaign, the GM has a primer to the genre through an adventure with advice on how to run it, and anyone can have a reference guide if needed to clarify any rules debate that might occur.

 

I think the sum of FAQ style knowledge that has been accumulated should absolutely be maintained to ensure that players don't have to rehash arguments that have already occurred and been resolved. That's the role of the reference guide.

 

To a certain extent you already see this in the Ultimate Skill. If the rulebook you proposed had a Basic Rulebook level summary of all skills, the Ultimate Skill serves as the reference guide for skills. Create a book called the Ultimate Power, include all the stuff from APGs and the main Vol and you have the reference guide. Ultimate GM could include all the other GM fiddly bits, rules options, and so on.

 

That's my .02 plus interest.

[Vondy]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

There's been a recurring suggestion that perhaps the Hero System core rules could benefit from a more concise treatment, similar to how the Hero System Basic Rulebook was done, but including the full rule set (not just the sub-set featured in Basic). I like this idea, simply because I think it would be easier to use a lot of the time. (There have also been suggestions that it might make the Hero System less intimidating to newcomers, and thereby increase the popularity of the game, though I'm personally less convinced on that score.)

 

Therefore, I've been giving some thought to what one might use as guiding principles for such a project. I thought I'd post my take on it, and see what ideas other folks might have. Who knows? If Hero Games ever decides to tackle such a thing, maybe these thoughts will be useful.

 

In no particular order...

 

• Don't Anticipate Confusion (aka, "It's Not a FAQ") Don't devote a bunch of words in the core rules to answering unasked questions. Explain the rule clearly, and assume readers will "get it." Will they? Not all of them, not every time. But most will, most of the time. By trying too hard to anticipate all possible questions before they're asked, you end up including a bunch of answers that many/most people would never need. By all means, use those answers somewhere, but have that be in an FAQ file or a "Hero System Companion" book or something.
  

• Don't Anticipate Every Possible Permutation It may seem useful in theory to include verbiage describing how, say, Clinging works if you apply Area Of Effect (personal surface - Damage Shield) to it. Trouble is, for the 99% of characters with Clinging that don't have Damage Shield on it, it's just a wasted paragraph. As with the "answering unasked questions" material, this sort of "specific game-element interaction" material can go in some companion volume instead of the core rules.
  

• Don't Assume Particular Special Effects Wherever possible, stick to describing what the game mechanic effects are, without offering possible game-world or SFX reasons for choosing those game effects. In other words, assume the readers understand the concept of Reasoning From Effect, and don't bother specifically noting (for example) that Animal Friendship might mean a character has "an innate bond with animals, or a mystical ability to make animals like and respect him." Maybe he does; maybe he doesn't. It doesn't matter. What matters is that the character pays 20 points, and gets the ability to gain an animal’s friendship, teach it a trick, or get it to perform some task, by succeeding with a PRE Roll at +3. Why the character has this ability, how it works for him specifically, or why the animals respond... that's all SFX.
  

• Don't Describe What It Isn't Except in the relatively rare case where it's clearly the best way to describe something (such as with, say, Combat Luck), don't bother describing what an ability isn't or what it doesn't do. Don't assume every reader will assume it might do other things you haven't said it does. For example, you don't need to point out that Ambidexterity doesn't allow a character to make multiple attacks. You didn't say it did allow that, so there's no need to assume someone else is going to assume it does.
  

• Don't Assume Ill Intent Beyond brief suggestions that a particular ability can affect game balance, so proceed appropriately, the core rules don't really need to warn against the abuse, misuse, or the evils of bad or munchkinny gaming groups.
  

• Assume Universal "GM Discretion" Exceptions Don't bother saying -- many times, on dozens of different abilities and rules -- that something is generally a certain way, but that the GM can grant special permission to do it another way. Just say "It works this way," and have it be a universal assumption that the GM can allow anything he wants to allow, disallow anything he wants to disallow, and change anything he wants to change. If that fact is spelled out clearly enough as an axiom of the system, then we don't need to mention it over and over again in specific instances.
  

 

That's what I've thought of so far. Anyone else have any ideas?

 

I think its a good starting baseline to work from.

 

Key concepts like "reasoning from effect," "assume universal GM discretion," and "hero assumes a human arbiter for balance" can be covered in a concise way in an appendix or short intro.

[Vondy]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

I love both of those. Definitely agreed' date=' on both counts. [/quote']

 

Thirded!

[thewomble]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

I completely agree with the ideas in this thread.

 

*introduce quickstarts, free in pdf form;

 

*have one volume of <400 pages as the Core Rules, presented like 6e FH or Champions (i.e. with lighter paper than the current core, and engaging cover art). Even better, have it available as both a color hardcover (retail ~$45) and a B&W softcover (retail ~$30).

 

*supplement the Core with a Companion volume adding in the edge cases and fuller explanations that have been left out of the new Core.

 

*de-emphasise or phase out the Basic Rules

 

Hero Games has limited resources. I think they should prioritize production of the Quickstarts, and consider crowdsourcing them i.e. asking for volunteers. Also, I think they should make Narf's 2 page primer into an official product as a free download and promote it.

 

6e1 is out of print. Now is a great time to make these changes and start working on the new Core Rules. I'd certainly contribute to a Kickstarter.

 

Lastly, I think Hero should emphasize that this is in no way a 7e or even a 6.5e. The new core would have corrected errata, but that's all. No need to even think about a new edition until around 2020 :-)

[Beast]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

250 page max maybe 300 ,but I think it can be done in 250 if HSB/sidekick is used as the template

400 pages is way too much it

prefer soft cover to keep the price down(I'd get a copy if it came out in a hardback or soft)

keep 6th ed vol 1 & 2 inprint for those that want all the verbage and examples

 

I feel just 1 new book would do it

 

 

I completely agree with the ideas in this thread.

 

*introduce quickstarts, free in pdf form;

 

*have one volume of <400 pages as the Core Rules, presented like 6e FH or Champions (i.e. with lighter paper than the current core, and engaging cover art)

 

*supplement the Core with a Companion volume adding in the edge cases and fuller explanations that have been left out of the new Core.

 

*de-emphasise or phase out the Basic Rules

 

Hero Games has limited resources. I think they should prioritize production of the Quickstarts, and consider crowdsourcing them i.e. asking for volunteers. Also, I think they should make Narf's 2 page primer into an official product as a free download and promote it.

 

6e1 is out of print. Now is a great time to make these changes and start working on the new Core Rules. I'd certainly contribute to a Kickstarter.

 

Lastly, I think Hero should emphasize that this is in no way a 7e or even a 6.5e. The new core would have corrected errata, but that's all. No need to even think about a new edition until around 2020 :-)

[thewomble]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

250 page max maybe 300 ,but I think it can be done in 250 if HSB/sidekick is used as the template

400 pages is way too much it

prefer soft cover to keep the price down(I'd get a copy if it came out in a hardback or soft)

keep 6th ed vol 1 & 2 inprint for those that want all the verbage and examples

 

I feel just 1 new book would do it

 

It's possible that it could be as low as 250 pages, I can't really say for sure. The important thing is that it be a complete game, with engaging presentation.

 

Initially, put out one book. Then as resources allow, add in the Companion book so that players who bought the new Core only need to buy one more book rather than both 6e1 and 6e2 to get the fuller game.

 

Something needs to be done now - already you can't buy 6e1.

[rstehwien]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

Love what is outlined and would contribute to a kickstarter for this project. Basically I want one complete core rule book much like my 4E book that doesn't scare the pants off anyone I show it to. An Advanced Guide book could have the optional rules and explanations on powers/interactions.

 

I'd also love some quick settings/genre guides that focused on rule guides, archetypes, and an adventure (still needs core book) to get people in the action on 100-200 pages. The model works pretty well for Savage Worlds (don't like the system but like the plot point books).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

Thanks for the support and good ideas so far, folks! Before we get too far afield, though... can I please ask that we share ideas about genre "quick start" books or other things in different threads? If possible, I'd like this one to stay focused on "If the full rules were to be published in a more concise single book, what would make good guiding principles for what to include (and not include) in that book?" Thanks!

[thewomble]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

One suggestion is to have two clear levels of information on each page: firstly the basic information, then additional information in a clearly differentiated graphic format. A sidebar is one traditional way of doing this, and you could still have them, but you could insert "advanced information" in a 3D raised box or something like that. This would make it easy to ignore all of the advanced info unless necessary. I would imagine having 10-20% of page text in these "ignore until needed" boxes.

 

This would definitely help with a text like the current 6e core, and could still be valid for a concise rulebook.

 

As far as criteria for selecting which text fall into which category, I'm not qualified to comment at this point...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

From what I've read so far this sounds a little like a 6e update of the Hero System Resource Kit (as opposed to Sidekick/Basic Rule Book). I'll have to dig my copy out later but I believe it has the full rules minus nearly ALL examples.

[Tasha]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

I would like any concise edition to make sure it includes all of the Heroic Level Optional rules ie Hit Location, Bleeding, Impairing and Disabling wounds, Encumberance, Long Term Endurance, Sectional Armor etc. Those have been a part of the rules since at least Fantasy Hero 1st edition and are needed for any gritty Heroic level Gaming. Again the rules should get to the heart of the matter and not get bogged down by edge cases, and fiddly examples.

 

It should also reprint the weapons, armor and equipment from 6e2. All of this to allow someone to be able to make characters for any genre without buying another book.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

From what I've read so far this sounds a little like a 6e update of the Hero System Resource Kit (as opposed to Sidekick/Basic Rule Book). I'll have to dig my copy out later but I believe it has the full rules minus nearly ALL examples.

 

The Resource Kit would be a bit lighter than what we seem to be discussing, though it might make a decent quick start rules set (which would probably be better served in another thread, if that's what folks want). A better starting point for what 6e Concise would be Sidekick/Basic + corrections + the important stuff left out of it. It would be aiming at around 256 pages or so.

 

JoeG

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

I would like any concise edition to make sure it includes all of the Heroic Level Optional rules ie Hit Location, Bleeding, Impairing and Disabling wounds, Encumberance, Long Term Endurance, Sectional Armor etc. Those have been a part of the rules since at least Fantasy Hero 1st edition and are needed for any gritty Heroic level Gaming. Again the rules should get to the heart of the matter and not get bogged down by edge cases, and fiddly examples.

 

It should also reprint the weapons, armor and equipment from 6e2. All of this to allow someone to be able to make characters for any genre without buying another book.

Well, for my part, when I suggest a "concise edition," I mean one that still includes all of the rules. The conciseness refers to presenting the material in as brief and straightforward a manner as possible. It would leave out many of the examples, discussion, and "question-avoidance" that's currently in 6E, but wouldn't actually leave out any rules. It'd be like Basic, but with all the rules.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

Well' date=' for my part, when I suggest a "concise edition," I mean one that still includes [b']all[/b] of the rules. The conciseness refers to presenting the material in as brief and straightforward a manner as possible. It would leave out many of the examples, discussion, and "question-avoidance" that's currently in 6E, but wouldn't actually leave out any rules. It'd be like Basic, but with all the rules.

 

That's my take on what we're discussing as well. However, Tasha also mentions the weapons, armor and equipment tables. Those could be interpreted as "examples". I also challenge the assertion that these allow any genre ton be represented. It seems they represent fantasy and modern action/adventure fairly well. How suitable are they for pulp, old west, the renaissance (with archaic firearms) or most sci fi games (very few sci fi weapons)? Maybe the tables require either expansion to represent more genres or contraction of the extensive Fantasy section to make more room for comparably sized sections for other genres.

 

Practically, tables of weapons and armor are really as much a setting component as tables of spells, mutations, psionic powers or superpowers. Talents even suffer from this to some extent, being as much or more "sample powers" as "separate mechanics".

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

I think weapons and equipment are good examples of what should be in a Quick Start book. The rules for creating equipment, plus maybe 6 or so examples from common genres (some basic fantasy weapons/armor, common firearms, and some sci-fi weapons and armor) would be sufficient for the concise rules, but even the BR has too much EQ as far as I'm concerned.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

I think weapons and equipment are good examples of what should be in a Quick Start book. The rules for creating equipment' date=' plus maybe 6 or so examples from common genres (some basic fantasy weapons/armor, common firearms, and some sci-fi weapons and armor) would be sufficient for the concise rules, but even the BR has too much EQ as far as I'm concerned.[/quote']

 

I don't disagree with including some basic examples, but if we have gear examples, should we also have a few superpowers, superskills, spells, psionics and mutations? Gear is just one subset of "power builds". In a different model, "Killing Attack" could have swords, bows, guns and blasters in the sidebar as "sample powers", rather than a separate section on weapons and armor.

 

I see the "weapons and armor" issue as better supporting "genre packs" - a stripped down genre book which includes genre notes, genre builds like gear, powers (whether spells, psionics, mutations, superpowers or talents), a basic setting, some NPC's and an adventure or two, designed to be offered on its own, or bundled with a copy of the Hero System Basic Rules (or with a coupon allowing the purchaser to download the basic rules). BSRP used to provide its rule book with every game, but the BSRP rules were what, a 16 page booklet. Asking players to buy a copy of a 256 page book with each genre/setting pack they purchase seems excessive. Bundling a free rules download seems more palatable.

[thewomble]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

I think weapons and equipment are good examples of what should be in a Quick Start book. The rules for creating equipment' date=' plus maybe 6 or so examples from common genres (some basic fantasy weapons/armor, common firearms, and some sci-fi weapons and armor) would be sufficient for the concise rules, but even the BR has too much EQ as far as I'm concerned.[/quote']

 

I disagree. I think that lists of weapons and equipment is one thing that many people like to see in a core rulebook, and indeed flip through in the store to have a look at. I would be satisfied if the Concise Rules kept what was in the BR (or augmented the lists somewhat), but to actually cut down from what is already in the BR would be counterproductive.

 

The thing is, a few pages of equipment lists does not add to the intimidation or confusion factor like pages of text for a single power does. Including them shouldn't give anyone heartburn and will be very useful.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

Hmm... I'm torn. On one hand, I agree conceptually that weapons and armor are equipment builds that fit better in genre or setting books. But there are also system rules that apply particularly to such equipment -- especially for Heroic campaigns. I wouldn't want those rules left out, and it could be odd or difficult to explain those rules without showing any of the things they apply to. (It might seem almost like trying to explain Advantages without having included any Powers, for example.)

[Ternaugh]

Re: Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

 

I'd say that you would need at least a small list of weapons and armor, and basic rules to make them. 4e did this in 8 1/4 pages, 5er in 11, 6e2 in 15 pages, so it shouldn't be a problem fitting it in. Genre books would (and do) have expanded lists, as necessary.

 

JoeG