History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Disclaimer: most days, I loathe io9.

 

But once in a while they post something worth seeing. For instance, this article was actually an interesting read. For such a short piece, it seems pretty comprehensive. It's got the classics, the novels that defined space opera (some of which predate the invention of the term), the serials, the movies and tv shows, and surprisingly, the modern novels which have reinvented space opera and taken it in new directions. I'm fairly impressed.

 

So what did they miss, in your opinion?

[megaplayboy]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

A pretty thorough list. I might suggest adding a few comic books in there--the Silver Age Green Lantern and Legion of Super Heroes, the FF Galactus Trilogy and subsequent Silver Surfer series, Capt. Mar-Vell, Adam Warlock and all the Starlin stuff--as well as some space opera-ish RPGs. KOTOR, Xenosaga, Starcraft and a few other electronic games could probably be added in, too.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

A pretty thorough list. I might suggest adding a few comic books in there--the Silver Age Green Lantern and Legion of Super Heroes' date=' the FF Galactus Trilogy and subsequent Silver Surfer series, Capt. Mar-Vell, Adam Warlock and all the Starlin stuff--as well as some space opera-ish RPGs. KOTOR, Xenosaga, Starcraft and a few other electronic games could probably be added in, too.[/quote']

 

I find the question of space opera RPGs (tabletop in particular; I hardly know a thing about video games) an interesting topic; which ones would fit the definition used in the io9 article?

 

Space opera is "in short, romantic adventure set in space and told on a grand scale."

 

And specifically, which space opera RPGs would be considered "highlights" in the history of the genre?

 

The obvious example would be Traveller, but I have very mixed feelings about it. In many cases, Traveller fell short on the "grand scale" clause, focusing on purely local events which had little, if any, significance on the scale of the Third Imperium. There were a few exceptions: The Secrets of the Ancients, and The Traveller Adventure both had a bit more of what I'd call "scope" and I really wish there'd been more like them. Instead we got brushfire wars on backwater planets (Broadsword) and odd jobs to pay the bills (Mission on Mithril), which were anything but space opera.

 

Traveller's bastard offspring (MegaTraveller and The New Era) tried very hard to deliver space opera-style adventure on a much larger scale than the original game, but the fans (or at least an extremely vocal subset of the fans) were unhappy with this approach. As a fan of the space opera genre, I was disappointed they weren't received well.

 

Traveller is definitely a landmark SF RPG, but in terms of the space opera sub-genre, it seems to have been a series of false starts.* It was an awesome space opera waiting to happen, but that wasn't what the Traveller fans wanted, so it didn't happen.

 

 

What other RPG's should we consider for this list? It's interesting to note that almost every one of the tv/movie properties in the io9 article has had a role playing game based on it; or multiple RPGs in the case of Star Trek and Star Wars. Only a couple of the books have had direct RPG adaptations (Dune, Ringworld) and they were rather obscure. (Q: Was the Dune rpg based on the book or the movie? I didn't get a copy.)

 

 

*Which is why I finally had to cave in and write my own *&^%$#@! space opera RPG.

[L. Marcus]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

There's an RPG named Space Opera, isn't there?

[Christopher]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

I find the question of space opera RPGs (tabletop in particular; I hardly know a thing about video games) an interesting topic; which ones would fit the definition used in the io9 article?

As movie/video game and RPG Star Wars should be obvious. As Star Wars RPG I think WEG D6 made a better job of this: you could actually simulate big space or ground battles with the base rules and only few dice. It does not has the "HP-Attrition" combat system of the D20 system.

 

Mass Effect is also clearly on the Epic Scale (I think Bioware literally practiced with Star Wars [KotOR] before Mass Effect).

 

If it wasn't so focussed on dystopian future and battles, Warhammer 40k could make a good one.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

Yes, there was a Space Opera RPG. It was, I think it was a late 70s/early 80s publication, and I've never seen a copy, but the reviews I've read mostly took off points for over-complex game design. It never achieved wide popularity.

 

Warhammer 40K is actually a pretty good example of space opera, now that the space opera noir sub-genre is becoming popular: it's the "darker, edgier, morally ambiguous" school of space opera. Also, Warhammer 40K has a few similarities to Dune; (I'm no 40K expert, so bear with me if I'm only partly correct here) both have powerful religious organizations, a feudal political structure with an emperor at the top, various forms of psychic powers, and consider some technologies to be either forbidden or a "necessary evil" at best. There may be other similarities, but those are the ones that jump out at me. (Not to gloss over the differences, of course: the major one being 40K has lots of aliens.)

 

As for its dark, apocalyptic outlook, I think of Warhammer 40K as the RPG that was space opera noir before space opera noir was cool.

[Dreamstreamer]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

More recently, the FATE-powered Starblazer Adventures RPG (based on, and including a great deal of art from, the 80's British comic of the same name) embraces its space opera roots.

 

Also, wouldn't Warhammer 40K fall a little short of space opera because of the smaller scope that an individual's influence has on the galaxy at large? In other words, do the actions of individuals in that game affect galactic affairs? I always thought that characters in that game were treated more as cogs in a machine, ground down by an uncaring universe.

[Sundog]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

Yes, there was a Space Opera RPG. It was, I think it was a late 70s/early 80s publication, and I've never seen a copy, but the reviews I've read mostly took off points for over-complex game design. It never achieved wide popularity.

 

I actually owned that. It was quite complicated, but the system worked quite well for epic-level adventuring - as long as you got past the 3-5 hour charcter creation process.

[Christopher]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

Also' date=' wouldn't Warhammer 40K fall a little short of space opera because of the smaller scope that an individual's influence has on the galaxy at large? In other words, do the actions of individuals in that game affect galactic affairs? I always thought that characters in that game were treated more as cogs in a machine, ground down by an uncaring universe.[/quote']

Not if you are an elite Spacemarine or Imperial General. It's comparable to Luke Skywalker vs Stormtrooper #17.342.

[austenandrews]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

I dunno, personally I think "space opera" has come to describe a loose collection of tropes, much like "pulp." I wouldn't hesitate to call the movie Enemy Mine space opera, for example, even though its scope is ultimately very small. Or Alien:Resurrection, if more of it involved space.

 

But, semantics. No biggie.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

I dunno' date=' personally I think "space opera" has come to describe a loose collection of tropes, much like "pulp." I wouldn't hesitate to call the movie [i']Enemy Mine[/i] space opera, for example, even though its scope is ultimately very small. Or Alien:Resurrection, if more of it involved space.

 

But, semantics. No biggie.

 

It's true, space opera in general is rather loosely defined, and it doesn't help that like most other SF genres, it's spawning its own sub-genres these days: new space opera and space opera noir are both recognizably different approaches. This is why I took the "precautionary measure" of quoting the definition used by io9 for purposes of this thread. I'm not saying it's the best definition, but since their article started this discussion, I figured their definition would serve well enough.

[megaplayboy]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

I tend to think of space opera as having a few common elements:

1. rubber science(there may be some space opera with gritty semi-hard sf elements, but for the most part, the science is more science fantasy than speculative science)

2. epic scope

3. larger than life characters

 

 

I also think, to a large extent, Space Opera is the sci fi "fraternal twin" of Epic High Fantasy. (And Epic Superhero Comics are their unholy incestuous bastard child--but that's another thread entirely).

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

I tend to think of space opera as having a few common elements:

1. rubber science(there may be some space opera with gritty semi-hard sf elements, but for the most part, the science is more science fantasy than speculative science)

2. epic scope

3. larger than life characters

 

 

I also think, to a large extent, Space Opera is the sci fi "fraternal twin" of Epic High Fantasy. (And Epic Superhero Comics are their unholy incestuous bastard child--but that's another thread entirely).

 

It's quite common for modern space opera, especially among writers of the "new space opera" school, to incorporate hard SF. Check out Stephen Baxter, Alastair Reynolds and Paul J. McAuley and you'll find a fusion of space opera and hard SF, with varying degrees of "hardness." (Baxter's a mathematician/engineer, Reynolds is an astronomer, and McAuley is a botanist. And in novels I've read from each, it kinda shows. Go figure.)

 

This isn't exactly a hard-and-fast rule; Iain Banks' Culture novels are usually considered part of the new space opera movement, but they have little in the way of hard SF. And don't get me started on Peter F. Hamilton's Night's Dawn trilogy....

[Zen Archer]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

I actually owned that. It was quite complicated' date=' but the system worked quite well for epic-level adventuring - as long as you got past the 3-5 hour charcter creation process.[/quote']

 

I still have my copy, and I'll second this. Played in a lengthy campaign using the system which ranged from epic stuff to comparative street-level stuff. Worked fine for all of it.

 

The game did tend to wear its influences on its proverbial sleeve, though. The Lensman and Star Wars cops were pretty obvious.

[Christopher]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

I tend to think of space opera as having a few common elements:

1. rubber science(there may be some space opera with gritty semi-hard sf elements, but for the most part, the science is more science fantasy than speculative science)

2. epic scope

3. larger than life characters

to 1: At least in the points where it matters for the story. Mass Effect is mostly hard SciFi (down to how the Normandy becomes "invisible" or the downsides of using ME-Drive and how ME-Weapons work).

Except for "Element Zero" and "the Mass Effect" and what comes from it - in short, everything that really matters for the story.

 

with the rest I agreee:

2: The empire destroyed a planet. Instead of leveling just a city. In the EU they talk about the fate of entire sectors, not single planets.

3. Han Solo, ObiWan, Jedi in general, Luke, ...

 

I also think' date=' to a large extent, Space Opera is the sci fi "fraternal twin" of Epic High Fantasy. (And Epic Superhero Comics are their unholy incestuous bastard child--but that's another thread entirely).[/quote']

There are indeed many similarities.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

Traveller's bastard offspring (MegaTraveller and The New Era) tried very hard to deliver space opera-style adventure on a much larger scale than the original game' date=' but the fans (or at least an extremely vocal subset of the fans) were unhappy with this approach. As a fan of the space opera genre, I was disappointed they weren't received well.[/quote']

 

As a long-time Traveller player, I can say that it was small wonder they were not received well. Two great things about pre-MT Traveller was (a) a nice simple starship design system (one could work up a design on the back of an envelope in ten minutes, or refit an existing design mentally. Easy), and ( a marvellously rich and varied background with a real sense of historical "depth".

 

If GDW had wanted to work up an all-new game (and background) from scratch, they could have done so.

 

No, wait, they sort of tried that with 'Traveller 2300' - and it didn't sell. Largely because they fooled the Traveller fanbase into believing that it had Traveller material and, when it became clear that this was most definitely not so, a lot of people dropped the game HARD.

 

So what did we get?

 

MT had a vehicle design system that was, put bluntly, totally incomprehensible. Also, the emphasis seemed to be less about introducing Space Operatic elements and more about physically destroying everything about the game that people actually LIKED - especially the baclground stuff. There had been a lot of background material worked up officially and semi-officially over the years - back-stories, worlds, sectors, subsectors, etc. - and all of that was basically torn up and flushed away.

 

TNE, way worse. Design system was even more incomprehensible. But, VIRUS was the big offender there. Trust me, you DON'T want me going into another 'Why VIRUS was so ####### stupid" rant. You really don't.

 

That 'GURPS Traveller' and 'MongTraveller' both did tolerably well by keeping close to the original background, and deciding that "VIRUS Never Happened", says a great deal, IMO.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

 

 

Dude, this was a discussion of space opera in RPGs, not volume 300 million of the Traveller edition wars. Those ended in 96 when TNE went out of print and GDW went bankrupt. Sixteen years later, we're still listening to the same pointless rants. You realize, don't you, that starship design rules have exactly nothing to do with whether an RPG has any real space opera content. And that mind-numbingly worn-out, tired, used-up, whiny butt-hurt TheyChangedItNowItSucks meme is also completely beside the point. MT & TNE were space opera; original Traveller for the most part, wasn't.

 

The "Traveller edition wars" are over, for something like 16 years now, and your side won, so why are you still moaning?

 

 

Whaaaa!!!

 

 

 

 

20 Years ago they CHANGED Traveller!!!

 

 

Nobody likes a sore winner. Just get over it.

 

Please.

[Old Man]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

I'm... not sure that level of rant was warranted.

 

Anyway... the only SF game I played that I'd describe as space opera was Star Frontiers. The mechanics and background were pretty squarely space opera, if relatively low-powered. I never got into some of the later expansions--those might have increased the scope and power level. All it was really missing was psionics and martial arts.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

I'm fairly sure it was.

 

Going on twenty years now (TNE was released in 93) it's been pretty much impossible to have a reasonable conversation about SF RPGs in general anytime one of the "haters" from the Classic Traveller community is within earshot. You mention one of the "wrong" editions, even in passing, and you're in all kinds of trouble: you just pushed every single button on the Traveller Edition Wars Broken Record Jukebox and now they're going to fire it up. They won't stop until the discussion is completely de-railed; their outrage takes priority over everything else, whether it's relevant to the topic at hand, or not.

 

What really galls me is how they boast and brag about how every edition of Traveller since TNE has been predicated on the conceit that "Virus never happened" but in real life they never miss an opportunity to remind anyone who'll listen that it did happen, and how much they hated it. So they're more than willing to forget all about virus when they're playing the RPG, but mention it in a real world conversation, and they refuse to forget about it; the histrionics begin all over again, about how awful those three years of TNE were, when Virus made the baby Traveller Jesus cry, and GDW ruined their whole life. I'm trying to think of a more hypocritical way for them to deal with this issue, but it's not coming to me.

 

These people ought to be satisfied by now. They won a "total victory" in the edtion wars with respect to MT & TNE; their disaffection with where Traveller was going during those years, their lack of support for the games they didn't like, and their abject loathing were contributing factors in the demise of GDW. That company will never again have the temerity to publish an unpopular version of Traveller. But that's not good enough; after sixteen years they're still complaining to anyone who'll listen, at every opportunity, at the mere mention of a game they hate, like some kind of gaming-induced PTSD trigger. It's not really PTSD, but to listen to them you'd think they were traumatized.

 

I left the Traveller community behind and said good riddance, because of this sort of attitude. The Traveller community doesn't have "fans" any more, just gamers who seem to play their preferred version of Traveller because they hate everything else.

[Robot_Nixon]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

They won't stop until the discussion is completely de-railed

 

They?

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

They?

 

Yeah.

 

They.

 

Don't believe me? Try it. Go to any RPG forum on the web and make an oblique referrence to MT or TNE in a SF RPG discussion: it'll trigger an instant off-topic hate-fest/thread derail, guaranteed.

[Sundog]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

Dead on. Personally, I wasn't a fan of any of the Traveller sets, but the way the first ed fans nurse a grudge is crazy. And the MT and NE crowds are just as bad.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

Yeah.

 

They.

 

Don't believe me? Try it. Go to any RPG forum on the web and make an oblique referrence to MT or TNE in a SF RPG discussion: it'll trigger an instant off-topic hate-fest/thread derail, guaranteed.

 

I'm sorry if you consider me to be guilty of a hatefest. You made comments about individual Traveller editions / versions, and I responded with my point of view. Strange that. Suppose 'someone' COULD have said "Hey, let's NOT compare individual Traveller editions this time", but you did so. Noting also that I very specifically did NOT go into the whole TNE thing. Now, kind of wonder now if I should have, just so you could have had something to have a proper cranial explosion about.

 

Might I very respectfully suggest. XO, that you switch to decaf before continuing your discussion on what you consider to be Space Opera? I'm out of this thread, so you needn't worry about my alleged de-rails.

[DusterBoy]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

I think in space opera, the characters drive the story and the science is not required to be absolutely authentic, but in hard SF (at least of the Clarke-ian kind) there is a rigid adherance to scientific authenticity and it's that which drives the story.

 

Just my $0.02. Take it for what you will.

[megaplayboy]

Re: History of Space Opera, aka Finally an io9 article that doesn't suck.

 

I think that's probably a reasonable approximation of the distinction, DusterBoy. Explains why virtually every space-centered sci-fi film and tv series of the past 60 years can mostly be lumped into the Space Opera category(almost all of them are character-driven, and the "science and technology" is rarely completely consistent).