Paladin Martial Art?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

Would Aikido/-jutsu be good for the throw-oriented paladin following a code of honor?

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

Would Aikido/-jutsu be good for the throw-oriented paladin following a code of honor?

And Judo.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

I concur. Those are pretty good arts for someone who doesn't want to do spin kicks in plate.

[Steve]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

I suppose if you want paladins to have a unique fighting style, there's nothing really wrong with choosing Kenjutsu for their swordfighting training. For unarmed fighting, you could use the older Jujutsu forms. Having both would seem to be a pretty well-rounded fighting style, a warrior capable of fighting well armed or unarmed. Jujutsu also has a weapon element for fighting in armor, which seems appropriate for a paladin.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

Don't forget the art of shield bashing!

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

And the art of Lancing! Ghost-angel said about kung-fu because of the list which is a good idea. Also juijitsu would be a good place to start too. When Kano developed Judo, he studied westren wrestling and added in techniques he thought was useful. Another thing to look at is making sure you have weapon elements for 'westren'/paladin art.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

I suppose if you want paladins to have a unique fighting style' date=' there's nothing really wrong with choosing Kenjutsu for their swordfighting training. For unarmed fighting, you could use the older Jujutsu forms. Having both would seem to be a pretty well-rounded fighting style, a warrior capable of fighting well armed or unarmed. Jujutsu also has a weapon element for fighting in armor, which seems appropriate for a paladin.[/quote']

well put agreed

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

Been wondering what a martial art designed to take advantage of a typical D&D Paladins' powers might look like. Probably offense-focused, although not necessarily damage.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

I wouldn't. What do pimps have to do with Paladins? (At least I heard that some of the manuevers were developed by pimps in Paris' date=' but this information is more by word of mouth than actual fact). [/quote']

 

Oh, I'm sure some pimps practiced it at some point. Some probably practice it now

 

Savate's got a pretty convoluted history prior to the early 1800's. As the lore goes, techniques initally came from street toughs and sailors. It didn't really start to resemble the art it is today until boxing elements were added in the 1830's. Of course, it didn't actually exist in any form during medieval times, so obviously a fantasy version would have no reason to be tied to any real world history. So you could easily have it being taught to nobels as a companion art to fencing in the finest academys across the land.

 

A technical advantage in favor of savate is that it's one of the few kicking arts practiced and designed to be done with shoes on. Most of the kicks use the toe (fouette), edge (coup de pied bas) or heel (chasse) of the shoe, so it's particularly brutal with hard soled, raised heel boots (like cowboy boots). Not that other kicking arts are somehow ineffective once they have shoes on or antything like that, it's just a subtle technical detail that could be an interesting thing to highlight.

 

Anyhow... while the sportive aspect is a pure striking/sweeping art, the self defense side of things covers grappling, throws and disarms. Of course, it's generally a very bouncy, energetic style that focuses on speed, precision and fancy footwork that may not be partciularly well suited to armor. Traditional technique also makes use of the rear hand for counter balance and this may look particulalry odd with a sword or shield in play. Finally, kicking in a armed verses unarmed

 

Also juijitsu would be a good place to start too. When Kano developed Judo' date=' he studied westren wrestling and added in techniques he thought was useful.[/quote']

 

Traditional Koryu Jujutsu is a very different beast from judo or the many Western styles of jujutsu, most of which are just modified versions of judo to begin with. There's a lot of debate on just how much influence wrestling had on early judo.

 

- Kano was never known to practice any of the western wrestling styles. He may have observed them at some point or been exposed to them directly when he traveled abroad. He certainly had access to books on western wrestling at the very least.

 

- Kata garuma is the one techniqe that's attributed to western wrestling by most judoka, where it's known as the fireman's carry. There's an oft repeated legend about how a young Kano was unable to throw a rival jujutsuka until he learned this technique from a book on wrestling. However, we don't know for sure that this was a book on western wrestling. The technique was present in the sumo wrestling of the day (and today as well)

 

- There are many other areas where a western uinfluence on judo is likely. For example, the use of pinning techniques that force a mans shoulders to the mat most likely comes from wrestling, as the concept is not really present in any other eastern arts. But this is untilamtly just speculation.

 

As both a wrestler and judoka, I would love to have evidence that shows a clearer historical/technical link between the two, but it's lacking. The very suggestion of such is often met with considerable hostility from many in the judo community.

 

Also, I'd reluctantly toss my vote in for jujutsu. It's probably the easiest way to go just based on it's writeup and selection of maneuvers in HSMA, though I beleive it's (oddly) lacking the Takeaway maneuver...

[Ragitsu]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

If you want to go extra further with comparisons, then the "paladin" is typically the western Earth equivalent of the idealized samurai.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

As both a wrestler and judoka, I would love to have evidence that shows a clearer historical/technical link between the two, but it's lacking. The very suggestion of such is often met with considerable hostility from many in the judo community.

 

What? Practioners get upset when someone suggests that their style's history is different than what was taught to them? No that never happens..... But about Kano and wrestling, I'll have to see what book I had that suggested it.

 

(I once told someone the idea that there was a theorehtical chance the pankration could've had a small influence, and I was faced with contempt).

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

What horses and riding skill? I would imagine that there is a penalty from fighting from horseback so maybe a new element or penalty skill levels to offset fighting from horseback.

[Markdoc]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

Given the traditional link between the Paladin and his mount in D&D, a riding martial art (levels in movethrough or moveby, combat riding, etc) might be in order.

 

cheers, Mark

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

Interesting conversation, but I believe you fellas haven't taken one thing into consideration;

 

What opponents are Paladins trained to fight and most likely to face in the performance of their duties?

 

Most likely, Human and Demi-human (orcs etc) opponents are the most common. In a typical (D&D) Fantasy setting, most combatants wear at least some armor, so it is likely that striking type martial arts would be less effective against such opponents, as it would be difficult to do body damage to them with such defenses. In this case, grappling martial arts are likely to be the rule amongst religious Knight Orders.

 

The traditional (D&D) Paladin is often considered to be one of the most effective characters when one is facing off against undead. A Paladin's martial art would take this into account. When fighting many undead, it is often very detrimental to allow the undead to touch you, either in the case of the spread of disease and blight or the energy draining capabilities of some of the more powerful undead types. In this case, the Paladin martial art is going to include a lot of dodes, blocks, shoves and escapes, to facilitate escaping the clutches of blood sucking vampires, soul-draining liches and hungry ghouls.

 

And then of course there is the philosophy of the warrior who is ever-armed. Even if one is bereft of one's weapon, the true warrior should still be able to defeat his opponent. Thus, one or two strike maneuvers should be included, so the Paladin can defend himself or others in the case of an ambush.

 

Thus a Paladin martial art should include:

 

Grab maneuver, Throw maneuver and Disarm maneuver for dealing with human/demi-human opponents in armor.

Escape maneuver, Dodge maneuver, Block maneuver and Shove maneuver for dealing with undead etc. (also helps when grappling with human opponents)

Strike of some kind. Recommend Martial Strike and/or Fast Strike.

 

If this martial art is going to do double duty as both an Armed and Unarmed variant, I would add Offensive or Sacrifice strike to the mix as well as Passing Strike. It should have the weapon elements +1 Use Art with Swords, +1 Use art with Spears (their lance) +1 Use art with Shields (to enhance blocks with the shield and shield bashes and shoves) and +1 Use art while mounted (mainly for using Passing Strike with the mounts velocity bonus!)

 

Hope that helps.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

What? Practioners get upset when someone suggests that their style's history is different than what was taught to them? No that never happens....

 

Oh, it's not just about the history aspect. Some judoka just really hate wrestling

 

Certainly not a majority opinion, although the recent IJF rule changes were deliberately targeted against wrestling style technique being used in international competition.

 

Pretty complex subject actually.

 

But about Kano and wrestling, I'll have to see what book I had that suggested it.

 

I probably have at least a half dozen books that mention it. The Kata Guruma story is very well known, though not necessarily true...

 

Anyhow, sorry for the derail folks.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

Nusoardgraphite has a good point. I overlooked when then OP described exactly what his Paladin was for. Speaking of undead, I know that skeletons usually take extra damage from blunt attacks. If the OP also declares that this works for other types of undead, then this could be the reason that paladins prefer maces to swords.

 

(Off the top of my head, I don't know a special effect reason why a mace should be more effective than a sword on say a zombie.)

[Steve]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

What horses and riding skill? I would imagine that there is a penalty from fighting from horseback so maybe a new element or penalty skill levels to offset fighting from horseback.

 

Actually, I would say that a paladin's warhorse should have a martial art too. If you go with the view that they are magically summonable, they could have abilities from being battle-trained that a skilled rider could make use of.

 

It would make a paladin on his warhorse an even more fearsome opponent than if he was on foot.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

Nusoardgraphite has a good point. I overlooked when then OP described exactly what his Paladin was for. Speaking of undead, I know that skeletons usually take extra damage from blunt attacks. If the OP also declares that this works for other types of undead, then this could be the reason that paladins prefer maces to swords.

 

(Off the top of my head, I don't know a special effect reason why a mace should be more effective than a sword on say a zombie.)

Probably because bashing a zombies' brains in redeads it; stabbing it in the heart just gives it a handy lever you're holding on to.

 

Edit: 12 rPD/12 rED, 18 PD/18 ED, not versus damage to the head, holy SFX or life SFX makes even a "puny zombie" a horrific threat to many.

[Markdoc]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

Probably because bashing a zombies' brains in redeads it; stabbing it in the heart just gives it a handy lever you're holding on to.

 

Edit: 12 rPD/12 rED, 18 PD/18 ED, not versus damage to the head, holy SFX or life SFX makes even a "puny zombie" a horrific threat to many.

 

That doesn't sound like a "puny zombie" - you're talking about a level of defence 50% higher than hardened steel: tough enough to bounce without harm - on average - a rock hurled by a catapult or a two-handed axe wielded by the mightiest of barbarians. A half dozen zombies with that level of toughness would tear through any kind of normal soldiery.

 

cheers, Mark

[BhelliomRahl]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

NuSoardGraphite makes the point that a Paladin's Martial Arts would be based upon the opponents they face. Also a point would be that a Paladin is part of a Holy Order, the Martial Arts they practise would possible be part of the philosophy of their order.

Similar to Tai Ch'i Ch'uan which was devised by Taoist Priest, so it has religious practices aswell as practical. Tai Ch'i Ch'uan would also be a practical skill for the Paladin for its a Internal Art which Focus on developing internal energy (Spiritual Power) where an external style focuses on developing the body and physical abilities, although this does not mean one style excludes practising the other.

Tai Ch'i Ch'uan style revolves around dodging then attacking usually by a grab. It also had strikes and grabs designed to kill (Killing Damage).

 

Your best option in my opinion would be to create the style from scratch, taking a combination of internal and external arts.

[Old Man]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

That doesn't sound like a "puny zombie" - you're talking about a level of defence 50% higher than hardened steel: tough enough to bounce without harm - on average - a rock hurled by a catapult or a two-handed axe wielded by the mightiest of barbarians. A half dozen zombies with that level of toughness would tear through any kind of normal soldiery.

 

I've done something similar to this only bought with IPE--so that it still looks like you're ramming your sword clear through its torso but for some reason it has little effect. My version was a spell bought for a necromancer PC, but either way it just amounts to a kind of undead Combat Luck.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

That doesn't sound like a "puny zombie" - you're talking about a level of defence 50% higher than hardened steel: tough enough to bounce without harm - on average - a rock hurled by a catapult or a two-handed axe wielded by the mightiest of barbarians. A half dozen zombies with that level of toughness would tear through any kind of normal soldiery.

 

cheers, Mark

I was being ironic.

[Markdoc]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

I've done something similar to this only bought with IPE--so that it still looks like you're ramming your sword clear through its torso but for some reason it has little effect. My version was a spell bought for a necromancer PC' date=' but either way it just amounts to a kind of undead Combat Luck.[/quote']

 

Yeah, the concept is pretty much what I use too: I was just pointing out that in Fantasy Hero that's a whole lotta tough ... though as it turns out Narf was already aware of that

 

cheers, Mark

[Alibear]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

I like the sugestions for Kenjutsu and Kung Fu as good starting points.

I'd buy it with sword, shield and armour elements if the knight fights with sword and shield.

 

The thing that really got me thinking was the Lance Martial Art. A seated Martial Art would be really cool to play about with.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Paladin Martial Art?

 

Might be of some interest....

Unfortunately, the quotes are all in German, but there is a TON of related material available on the web.

Traditional European weapon arts are a huge, fast growing subsector of the Martial Arts world

I concur with the "Who are they training to fight against?" question.

Most of the heavy armored martial arts I'm familiar with in the real world are all sort of duel focused, that is to say, largely training to fight someone with a similar level of training and gear, probably because any lesser equipped troops generally had great problems dealing with full plate harnessed troops in close quarters, so the specialized training would be against what they considered the main credible threats.