Hello

[Christopher]

Re: Hello

 

Welcome aboard.

 

How does HS6 compare to GURPS 4 in the complex stakes, which is easier?

What, in your opinion, is probably the most complex calculation required?

I have no knowledge of GURPS at all.

 

The main math is Character Creation, especially Power Creation. Superheroic games tend to be easier - fewer limitations and those you do have are uniformly ("All Slots" Limitations or something all power share).

The average Heroic gun has one +1/4 Advantage and around -2 too -3 worth of Limitations.

 

Re: Character Creation. Sure' date=' like GURPS there's a lot going on, but I assume it's all front loaded 'top heavy'. Once the game begins, it's fairly straight forward. [/quote']

Adding Damage on attacks with Advantages can be tricky, but there are lists for that. Make as much as you can in advance, especially for HTH-Attacks (wich usually recieve extra Damage from STR).

When only one hero has Damage Negation it can be tricky to calculate the damage of Area of Effect attacks. Better leave it out at first.

Adjustment Power targetting Powers with Advantages can be tricky as well. DOuble so if they are attacks or Inside a Power Framework. You might want to leave them out at first.

 

Page 29 says - "Some examples of Heroic campaigns include sword and sorcery Fantasy' date=' modern espionage adventures, swashbuckling pirates, star-spanning Science Fiction epics, and post-apocalypse exploration[/i']."

 

That's great, but what if I want to run a zombie apocalypse campaign with characters who are just straight up normal. No gizmos, gadgets, freaky abilities. I'm talking your average Joe.

 

Can it be done with HERO?

You can build anything.

The down side is: If you don't have a pre-existing setting, you also have to build everything. If you don't ahve to money for a setting, invest in the Hero Designer at least.

 

Zombies are normally build as Automatons (6E2), with "Take no STUN" and other Automaton Powers. But the powerlevel can varry really wide. You need different Zed's for 175 point heros then for 400 point Superheroes, a "Left 4 Dead" game or a "Buffy" game.

The best advice I can give you is to pick a Power Level, then keep inside the guideliens outlined by the book for that powerlevel. While it wasn't designed with those in mind, it helps a lot to start with.

 

Complete Formula for Power Calculation:

(Base Cost + Adder) = Base Cost with Adders.

Base Cost with Adders*(1+Advantages) = Active Points.

Active Points/(1+Limitations) = Real Cost.

(optional)Real Cost/(5 or 10) = Real Cost for a Multipower Slot.

 

After each step, you round: <.5 down; >.5 up; .5 = "in Favor of the Character".

 

Base Cost before adders: Is used to determine the Range of Ranged Powers. Otherwis not relevant.

Base Cost with Adders: This is what the book refers to as Base Cost most often. Without Advantages, the Base Cost w/ Adders is the Active Points.

Active Points: Short AP. The closest we have to a measure for "how powerfull is it". Two 60 AP attacks - one with advantages and one without - will on average be equally powerfull. The Guideliens have a AP Limit for Powers and it's also an important figure for Power Frameworks. Without Limitations or a Multipower, this will be the Real Cost.

Limitations: 1 + the sum of all Limitation Values. Ignore the foresign (-2 of Limitations means divide by 3, not divide by -1), it's only there to mark Limitations.

Real Cost: The amount of Charater Points you have to spend to get it, when you buy it outside of a Multipower.

 

Other Values:

DC - Damage Classes. Like AP, a measure for how Powerfull an Attack is. Usually DC are AP/5. However, not all Advantages count towards DC calculation. A 8d6 Blast, 0 END (+1/2) is 60 AP. But only 8 DC. And Damage Adds to it as if it were a 8D6 Blast without Advantages.

[Christopher]

Re: Hello

 

I can see one possible issue, and it's nothing to do with calculations, it's to do with the genres depcited within the book.

 

I've been told HS6 can do gritty, and your average joe up against the world type of thing. But everywhere I look, I see allusions to combat and damage (the front of the character sheet is about 75% to 80% combat/fighty details). The game looks to be heavily steeped in fighting type themes, and I guess that comes from its Hero/Champion early years.

 

So I'm thining, can HS6 comfortably do 'average joe', or is it just an illusion because under the hood it really is a superhero system at heart?

Well, it does tend towards the higher Power Levels. I once helped with a "Dark Heresy too Hero" covnersion and we had to modify some values to get the success Chances without bonus low enough. Lower Powerlevels lack granularity, but some claim to have pulled it off.

 

The Skill Roll Chances and Skill Bonus/Penalty work like this:

10- is a 50% Chance of Success.

+/-1 roughly equals +/-10% Chance.

Once you reach 5- (5%) or 15- (95%), that stops. Anything beyond or below that is only to prevent further modification into the other direction.

 

I would advise you to first try Standart Superheroic (400) or Standart Heroic (175) to get a feel for the game.

[Character]

Re: Hello

 

Thank you all very much for your input and advice

[bluesguy]

Re: Hello

 

The Hero system neither encourages or discourages combat. I run a Sword and Sorcery campaign based on the Valdorian Age (a product sold by Hero). It is setup as a 50/50 (combat vs. Role Playing) type game style. That means we have had sessions - sometimes a couple in a row - where no one has made a single attack roll. We have had other sessions where the entire session was combat. In fact there is one player character whose best combat move is 'dodge'. The player designed her character that way and is definitely plays her character in a way to avoid combat (she helps out where she can with her staff sling) but she is definitely a non-combatant.

 

I am also running a superhero campaign, same group of people, called North Star Heroes. This campaign is setup as 75/25 (combat vs role playing) and the role playing mostly occurs during the combat . In this case everyone's characters are definitely combat oriented and the characters have few 'role playing skills (high society, persuasion, trading, etc). All of the characters do have a career/job outside of being a superhero, and they have the skills for that career.

[bluesguy]

Re: Hello

 

And buying the Hero Designer program along with some of the HD packs will save you a lot of time and pain.

[Character]

Re: Hello

 

The Hero system neither encourages or discourages combat. I run a Sword and Sorcery campaign based on the Valdorian Age (a product sold by Hero). It is setup as a 50/50 (combat vs. Role Playing) type game style. That means we have had sessions - sometimes a couple in a row - where no one has made a single attack roll. We have had other sessions where the entire session was combat. In fact there is one player character whose best combat move is 'dodge'. The player designed her character that way and is definitely plays her character in a way to avoid combat (she helps out where she can with her staff sling) but she is definitely a non-combatant.

 

I am also running a superhero campaign, same group of people, called North Star Heroes. This campaign is setup as 75/25 (combat vs role playing) and the role playing mostly occurs during the combat . In this case everyone's characters are definitely combat oriented and the characters have few 'role playing skills (high society, persuasion, trading, etc). All of the characters do have a career/job outside of being a superhero, and they have the skills for that career.

 

Thanks for that, very interesting.

[Character]

Re: Hello

 

Welcome aboard.

 

Adding Damage on attacks with Advantages can be tricky, but there are lists for that.

And this occurs during the game? Could you provide an example please?

 

When only one hero has Damage Negation it can be tricky to calculate the damage of Area of Effect attacks.

Tricky how, because of the math involved?

 

Adjustment Power targetting Powers with Advantages can be tricky as well. DOuble so if they are attacks or Inside a Power Framework. You might want to leave them out at first.

Getting that sinking feeling

 

DC - Damage Classes. Like AP' date=' a measure for how Powerfull an Attack is. Usually DC are AP/5. However, not all Advantages count towards DC calculation. A 8d6 Blast, 0 END (+1/2) is 60 AP. But only 8 DC. And Damage Adds to it as if it were a 8D6 Blast without Advantages.[/quote']

I'm thinking perhaps it's not the game for me. Sounds awesome, not sure I'd be able to wrap my head around the math though. :|

[Character]

Re: Hello

 

And buying the Hero Designer program along with some of the HD packs will save you a lot of time and pain.

Yep, but I now hear there's a bit of math during the game as well. Math that has caused that part of the game to be described as tricky, and very tricky in some instances.

[Christopher]

Re: Hello

 

And this occurs during the game? Could you provide an example please?

STR adds Damage Classes to most HTH-Attacks (HTH-Attack and HTH-Killing Attack). This is the oen you can (and should) calculate in advance. Usually you jsut write something like:

2d6 HKA (3d6+1 With STR)

 

What can be problematic are those things you can't pre-calculate:

Combat Skill Level can add Damage on the fly.

As do Combat Maneuver like Haymaker, Move-by, Move-through (and in the later two cases, the amount added isn't fixed).

Martial Arts is often bought with Maneuvers that add a different amoutn of DC's (+1 too +4). And you can buy extra Damage Classes as well.

 

Tricky how' date=' because of the math involved?[/quote']

No, because you have to count the dice in different ways. Just don't tangle with DN in your first games and you should be fine. Some Gm's don't use it/allow it at all.

 

I'm thinking perhaps it's not the game for me. Sounds awesome' date=' not sure I'd be able to wrap my head around the math though. :|[/quote']

 

Yep' date=' but I now hear there's a bit of math [i']during [/i]the game as well. Math that has caused that part of the game to be described as tricky, and very tricky in some instances.

I don't say it's difficult math. It's jsut substracting and adding.

It's just stuff you should not tangle with on your first 1-3 games. Get the other stuff first, before go into these things. Hero has an amount of Rule in 6E1 and 6E2 as full as other systems have in thier entire Core book library. You wouldn't expect to learn D&D 3.5 Players Guide, Gamemastrs Guide, 5 expansion books (Fighters, Clerics, Druids, Magicians, Thiefs) and perhaps a campaing setting full of extra Rules and Feats in one go.

 

Normal and Killing Damage, OCV vs DCV, OMCV vs. DMCV, Area of Effect attacks. Flashes and Entangles. Attacks without advantages. These are enough to make your average Superhero game, enough to start with.

 

The entire other stuff can wait until you actually need it or if the systems starts flowing normally:

Drains & Aid's, Damage Negation. Autofire, Armor Piercing, Penetrating and many more. All have a purpose in the game, but they don't not every game has a purpose for them.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hello

 

Yep' date=' but I now hear there's a bit of math [i']during [/i]the game as well. Math that has caused that part of the game to be described as tricky, and very tricky in some instances.

 

Like Christopher has already mentioned, a big portion can be pre-figured on the character sheet if you're willing to put in the work ahead of time.

 

See this 5er example character sheet of my namesake super (specifically the Movement and HA slots within his Multipower).

Would I go to this level of detail for all characters? Probably not, but only because I can figure most of it off the top of my head by now.

[Steve]

Re: Hello

 

Please don't be bothered by the math. It sounds worse when explaining it using only text than it is. 95%+ of your time spent using the rules will be addition and subtraction. Special attacks like Flash or Drain have corresponding defenses that subtract from it before applying effects. Things like Mind Control or Presence Attacks are rolled on the dice and then the totals are compared to a simple chart with levels that break down to Ego/Pre, Ego/Pre+10, etc.

[KX_Mushashi]

Re: Hello

 

for as bad as it sounds 80% or more of the math during the game is simple addition and subtraction, just like with any other pen and paper game. There are a few times when you will halve something or do something similar. Character creation Gurps actually uses a similar method to hero's fractions they just note it as a percentage as apposed to converting it into the fraction for you. If the math in Gurps isn't bad the math in hero won't be too bad, if the math in other games isn't too bad then most of the time the math in Hero won't be any different at all.

[Lucius]

Re: Hello

 

A lot of tricky stuff is possible to avoid.

 

For example, if a character has the Complication called a Vulnerability, they could take the STUN damage of an attack done to them and multiply by 1.5 or 2. But you don't have to let any characters take Vulnerabilities.

 

Damage Reduction is a Power that does the opposite and allows a character to take less damage from an attack. But again, lots of games never see this Power used.

 

If you're not playing suerheroes, it's not hard to avoid those two.

 

 

Something you probably would have to deal with though is that sometimes you have to cut OCV and DCV in half. There are a number of circumstances - grabbing, being grabbed, being stunned, etc - that involve halving combat values.

 

Some things you can prepare for. For example, I have a player who always tries to maximize damage; I KNEW he would sometimes want to use "haymaker" which addes to your damage but imposes certain penalties such as, if I remember right, -5 to DCV. I just wrote up tables for each player character with the common manuevers they'd want to use; he just has to look at the row corresponding to haymakering his Great Big Ax (which I gave the colorful name "Max the Ax Attax") to know just what all his values are including how many dice to roll. (3d6+1 Killing Attack, enough to likely to sever the limb or head of an unarmored Human opponent....IF it hits.)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Hero

[gojira]

Re: Hello

 

Right, you can avoid the hairy math if you need to. Depending what you dislike and what sort of game you want to play, that might not affect you at all.

 

Some other math: there's a damage bonus for a Move Through or a Move By. That's where you run at someone and then tackle/slam them, or run by while striking with a weapon. The bonus is your speed divided by 6 or 10, depending on whether you did a Move Through or Move By. However, for a "normals" campaign, those should be small and easy to figure. Top speed is usually 12 meters, so the bonus will be 2 or 1 dice, or a bit more if someone is really fast. In play, the game is actually pretty easy.

 

The worst bit, imo, is reading through the rules, and getting a sense of what they all mean. Some rules are optional too, and might not apply to a "normals" campaign, or might be something best avoided for that type of genre too. A lot of the adding damage rules are for martial arts, with and without weapon forms, and for tricky combinations of powers with maneuvers. Normal folks are unlikely to have that, so a lot of those options go away.

 

Best thing you might want to do is start another thread on "New comer battle scenario" or something and work out some examples. Take some situations you think might come up (running from a zombie, fighting off a zombie with a stick, persuading someone to give your food or shelter, bartering for zombie world goods, etc.). Figure them out as best you can, post them, and then let people explain other things that might come up, where you might want to simplify for the sake of genre, what you might expect a player to do (something unexpected) etc. And see if the results are to your liking.

[Lucius]

Re: Hello

 

I have another player playing a hit and run fighter, and she has a chart of manuevers with the velocity bonus already added in, just like Mr I-hit-it-with-my-ax--HARD has his bonuses added in. Lots of these things can be pre-figured if you can expect them to come up.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I expect a palindromedary to come up regularly

[Character]

Re: Hello

 

Thanks all, some great stuff here!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hello

 

If there is a warning for Hero, it's only that you should know almost all the work for a game is upfront - setting up power levels, standards, expectations, conditions, and all the little parts that immerse you into a genre or game does require some effort before you ever get to character creation. Once done, though, you'll find you can tweak Hero to your needs pretty easily.

[lbitoredmale]

Re: Hello

 

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[TR]

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I'm a hero fan, it gives better options to GMs that want to play in genres that are a bit off of the the beaten path.

[Character]

Re: Hello

 

Is there a new edition of Hero (7th?) coming out? Thought I read somewhere that there was.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Hello

 

Is there a new edition of Hero (7th?) coming out? Thought I read somewhere that there was.

 

Sort of. Champions Complete is scheduled for release this fall. It's a condensed version of the 6th edition rules and the superhero genre book in one volume. However, there are only a few minor changes to the rules themselves, so it's not a new edition.

[Character]

Re: Hello

 

Ok thanks

[Barwickian]

Re: Hello

 

Hi Character,

 

I didn't see this thread first time around, but I'll add my twopennorth...

 

Almost every bit of maths you need (apart from applying modifiers to dice rolls, which is a straight add/subtract) is done in advance. Character generation (and campaign creation) is the tough part.

 

In play, Hero works very smoothly, and gives a great deal of tactical flexibility in combat, particularly if you use minis or markers. I think this is why it's often perceived as a combat intensive game - the combat is very, very well put together.

 

You need to keep track of three kinds of 'hit points': BODY (physical hits), STUN (temporary/subdual hits) and END (fatigue). You can generally recover STUN and END in the middle of combat, so those go u as well as down.

 

There are quite a lot of tables scattered through the books. Pre-preparing a GM reference screen or pages before combat will ne extremely useful. I use the reference tables from the Hero System Resource Kit, which is for 5th Edition, but the actual changes are minor, and I've edited them in. PDFs of this are still available from the online store, and I highly recommend it.

 

Outside of combat, Hero is simple and quick: roll Skill Level (adjusted by any modifiers) or less on 3d6 to succeed. If someone's opposing you, beat their roll to succeed.

 

One power that could be confusing in play: Variable Power Pool allows for creation of powers on the fly. Many GMs ask players to pre-prepare some stock powers they'll use; experienced players may actually be able to create on the fly. Some GMs don't allow VPPs, particularly in an inexperienced group.

 

As to the GURPS comparison, I'm most familiar with GURPS 3, rather than GURPS 4. I found Hero somewhat tough to use after years of GURPS playing. There's a bit of a paradigm shift: in GURPS you buy the power you want; in Hero you buy the game effect and then decide what power that represents. That's key to Hero's flexibility, but until you grok it, it can be a bit of a stumbling block. Here's a description of my efforts to come to terms with Hero (written for 5th edition, but still applicable).

[Character]

Re: Hello

 

Thank you for that in depth reply

[Ndreare]

Re: Hello

 

On the zombie note check out the store for about 2 bucks you can get a dozen types of zombies already written up by Steve Long.

[psyber624]

Re: Hello

 

While GURPS and HERO look similar on the surface, in my experience they are based on VERY different philosophies. GURPS tried to make one system that could then work with multiple genres. But what I remember about the system (and this was 15 years ago) was that it really just meant the basic rules stayed relatively the same, but you really needed a genre book to play in a specific genre (the base rules were just that, a base for other books to build off of. ) HERO on the other system seems to be designed for you to take the rules and create whatever you want. You can buy other genre books so alot of the work is done for you, but you could also just buy the Core rules and then create characters/monsters/creatures for whatever system you want.

 

This is because HERO works the exact opposite of most systems. Instead of telling you how powers effect the system, it give a near comprehensive list of effects in the system, and lets you decide what the power is. You can then decide what game effect you want a power to have, and build it up from there.

 

It means that, in HERO terms, bullets, fire breath, bolts of lighting, Magic Arrows, Laser Beams, etc. are all basically the same, because they all have the same effect on the game system (do deadly damage at range aka Ranged Killing Attack (RKA)). What they "look like" doesn't matter to the game system, so you can describe them however you want.

 

The other thing about HERO system is that it encourages the GM (especially) and the players to modify the system to suit their needs. If you struggle with adding Damage Classes, simplify the math, or require the work to be done outside of combat, or even don't allow those sorts of situations to come up at all. Due to the depth and nature of the game system yes, if you get advanced players who love tweaking and manipulating combat elements you can get into some weird situations that require a bit of math to resolve, but then MOST game systems offer more advanced rules that complicate their base system as well. If you don't like those elements, they are easy to ignore.