Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

[Ragitsu]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I'd already put this on the political cartoons thread, but it seems to apply here.

 

...image...

 

When there's an insinuation that you need to keep reminding yourself to not rape, this being mentioned, in one form or another, is a bit of an inevitability.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

You need to remind yourself not to rape?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I will respect someone's wishes if they tell me 'no'. I will respect boundaries and be aware of triggers. I will not assume silence means 'yes' or 'OK'.

 

Apparently, at least for "geeky guys".

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Never been my problem. You've been hanging out with the wrong geeks.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Never been my problem. You've been hanging out with the wrong geeks.

 

I was quoting someone else , not my own experiences.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I know. Just having fun.

This thread went from a legitimate concern to a bit of hyperbolic paranoia.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

When there's an insinuation that you need to keep reminding yourself to not rape' date=' this being mentioned, in one form or another, is a bit of an inevitability.[/size']

 

Apparently' date=' at least for "geeky guys".[/quote']

 

No one ever said or implied that.

 

"No means no" also applies to asking women out or "hitting" on them. Some guys just cannot get it in their heads that when someone says that they are not interested that they really mean just that.

 

Also since it seems that it won't work to teach our young to not hurt women "ie to not rape them" and the only avenue open to me is to "take care of myself". I DO have to assume that all guys are untrustworthy. That I cannot ever let my guard down. I must be ready to physically defend myself whenever I am alone with a guy. Or at least that's my big take away from the discussions here.

 

See, I can misinterpret the discussion and twist it around too.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

No one ever said or implied that.

 

"No means no" also applies to asking women out or "hitting" on them. Some guys just cannot get it in their heads that when someone says that they are not interested that they really mean just that.

 

Also since it seems that it won't work to teach our young to not hurt women "ie to not rape them" and the only avenue open to me is to "take care of myself". I DO have to assume that all guys are untrustworthy. That I cannot ever let my guard down. I must be ready to physically defend myself whenever I am alone with a guy. Or at least that's my big take away from the discussions here.

 

See, I can misinterpret the discussion and twist it around too.

 

If you were to say, replace "guys" with "blacks" or "Hispanics", that is wrong, but "guys" is just fine. Hm...interesting standards our society has.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Ok

 

Out in the lands of Warhammer 40k there has also been a discussion of sexism in the wargaming circles (which is frankly far worse than it is in RPG circles). Also, the discussion has moved toward the subject of "Sexy Models" ie miniatures that depict people but mostly women in a sexualized fashion. Thanks to the popularity of http://www.Coolminiornot.com there has been an explosion of companies that offer nearly pornographic nude models. There has always been a trickle of intensely sexualized female models from nearly all companies that make miniatures. Lately there has been an explosion of these kind of figurines. I see this discussion as being akin to discussions here about the Depictions of Women in RPG artwork.

 

it started with this review of models (Warning Nekked and partially nekked painted and unpainted figuring might not be safe for work). The comments are where it all began:

http://www.houseofpaincakes.com/2012/06/sexy-models-need-i-say-more.html#idc-container

 

Then a ton of blogs commented on their own sites.

http://warpsignal.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/the-other-sexy-models/

http://www.tentakelgames.com/post/25494912136/sexism-and-miniatures

kind of wraps up here with a ton of links to other blogs that talk about the miniatures and the way women are treated at gaming places.

http://warpsignal.wordpress.com/2012/07/13/sexism-in-gaming-art-final-words/

 

Enjoy

[Barwickian]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Also since it seems that it won't work to teach our young to not hurt women "ie to not rape them" and the only avenue open to me is to "take care of myself". I DO have to assume that all guys are untrustworthy. That I cannot ever let my guard down. I must be ready to physically defend myself whenever I am alone with a guy. Or at least that's my big take away from the discussions here.

 

And that, in a nutshell, is what the whole issue of privilege is about: feeling safe, secure and confident. Or not.

 

Of course, no one is quite so insecure as someone who feels entitled to their privilege and fears it's threatened. You find a lot of them on other forums.

 

Does this thread stand any chance of getting off rape and back onto making girl geeks feel welcome in our hobby?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

And that, in a nutshell, is what the whole issue of privilege is about: feeling safe, secure and confident. Or not.

 

Of course, no one is quite so insecure as someone who feels entitled to their privilege and fears it's threatened. You find a lot of them on other forums.

 

Does this thread stand any chance of getting off rape and back onto making girl geeks feel welcome in our hobby?

 

I have hopes.

[Barwickian]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

If you were to say' date=' replace "guys" with "blacks" or "Hispanics", that is wrong, but "guys" is just fine. Hm...interesting standards our society has.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure I understand the point you're trying to make.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Oh how I feel about the whole sexy model/ sexualized artwork. If it didn't seem to be more or less the default way that women were depicted in all of the gaming hobbies (RPG, Wargame, Computer). I wouldn't be quite as bothered by it. If more women were depicted as wearing more clothing and being strong and in charge. Also, I would love to see more figurines of Women doing cool things. I LOVE miniatures that depict women warriors esp when they are wearing mostly practical armor ie armor that covers their midrift and legs.

 

I play 40k and the only race that actually has an integrated army are the Space elves (AKA Eldar). Even the "evil" space elves (AKA Dark Eldar) have women in their army. For the Human faction there are Space Marines (Who don't have any women in their ranks), Imperial Guards (you have to find/buy extra models if you want women in your rank and file), Then there are the Sisters of Battle. They kind of look like Space Marines, if the guys wore armor shaped like Corsets and leather fetish gear. Hell, they even have units of naked women who whip themselves. Also their Big walker unit is one that tortures the pilot. Also their biggest generals are a couple of men and it clear that the men ultimately run things. Also in the universe are Space Dwarves (AKA Squats), who don't seem to have any women in their ranks. Orks, who grow from spores and are a combination of Fungus and animal. They have no women. There are also the Space Terminators from Egypt (AKA Necrons) probably used to have women, but are now genderless robots of Dooooom. Tyranids are basically Giger's Alien and do seeminly have female units that give birth to little ones, but nothing that anyone would identify as anything more than a monster figurine. The newest species in 40k are the Tao. They run around in Powered armor that looks like it should have been in a Manga comic. Also, no identifiable Women in their army or any of their allies' armies (there are 2 other species that fight in Tao armies the Kroot and someone else). I am picking on 40k/Games Workshop because they are the 40,000kg Gorilla of the business (pun intended).

 

On the good side the folk at Privateer Press actually have women in positions of power in their Miniatures game. Also the women depicted actually wear practical armor.

 

Mantic Miniatures is the up and comer when it comes to fantasy and Sci Fi wargamming. Both owners are former GW sculptors and it does show in all of their armies. In their SciFi game there aren't any female figures. For their Fantasy game nearly 0 female figurines.

 

What that means is that for both GW and Mantic (along with others) there aren't many choices if you want an army to Identify with as a woman.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

And that, in a nutshell, is what the whole issue of privilege is about: feeling safe, secure and confident. Or not.

 

Of course, no one is quite so insecure as someone who feels entitled to their privilege and fears it's threatened. You find a lot of them on other forums.

 

Does this thread stand any chance of getting off rape and back onto making girl geeks feel welcome in our hobby?

 

I am trying

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

If you were to say' date=' replace "guys" with "blacks" or "Hispanics", that is wrong, but "guys" is just fine. Hm...interesting standards our society has.[/quote']

 

"Some Hispanics just cannot get it in their heads that when someone says that they are not interested that they really mean just that."

"Some Blacks cannot get it in their heads that when someone says that they are not interested that they really mean just that."

"Some women just cannot get it in their heads that when someone says that they are not interested that they really mean just that."

"Some Salesmen just cannot get it in their heads that when someone says that they are not interested that they really mean just that."

"Some Doberman Puppehs just cannot get it in their heads that when someone says that they are not interested that they really mean just that."

"Some Politicians just cannot get it in their heads that when someone says that they are not interested that they really mean just that."

"Some Nerds just cannot get it in their heads that when someone says that they are not interested that they really mean just that."

"Some Jocks just cannot get it in their heads that when someone says that they are not interested that they really mean just that."

"Some Venture Capitalists just cannot get it in their heads that when someone says that they are not interested that they really mean just that."

"Some Pollsters just cannot get it in their heads that when someone says that they are not interested that they really mean just that."

"Some Automated Calling services just cannot get it in their heads that when someone says that they are not interested that they really mean just that."

 

Some instances of this statement are more alarming than others. But it's a vague enough statement that I'd wager it's true.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

If you were to say' date=' replace "guys" with "blacks" or "Hispanics", that is wrong, but "guys" is just fine. Hm...interesting standards our society has.[/quote']

 

I don't think that makes a coherent point. I think you are trying to say that my singling out guys for annoying behavior is somehow sexist. That complaining about a Hispanic or Black hitting on a women and not taking no for an answer is racist? I think you are trying to throw up Reverse sexism as a defense.

 

I will say that no matter what gender hitting on someone and not taking no for an answer is bad. It is a form of sexual harassment no matter if guys or women do it. It seems to me in my experience it is FAR more likely to be a guy not taking no for an answer than a gal. We need to make sure that all of our children know that when someone says no that means they don't want to go out or be with the person making the proposition.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

ooh ooh! Replace "guys" with "People!"

then no one gets their feelings hurt.

 

 

...or everyone. I'm not sure on the actual protocols here.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

"Some Doberman Puppehs just cannot get it in their heads that when someone says that they are not interested that they really mean just that."

 

Some instances of this statement are more alarming than others. But it's a vague enough statement that I'd wager it's true.

 

Reminds me of when I was training my poodle Puppeh. I used to say "no means no" as kind of joke when he was misbehaving. ie (NO! down!..... because no means no)LOL.

 

I don't know if that's going to make any sense or if any one else will see the humor in it. You probably had to be there and in my head to get it.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Also since it seems that it won't work to teach our young to not hurt women "ie to not rape them" and the only avenue open to me is to "take care of myself". I DO have to assume that all guys are untrustworthy. That I cannot ever let my guard down. I must be ready to physically defend myself whenever I am alone with a guy. Or at least that's my big take away from the discussions here.

 

"Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet."

 

Actually, your twisting isn't really twisted that far. Education has limited value because rapists are habitual offenders who are aroused by violence. Even opportunist rapists usually have histories of repeat offenses of some kind, if not rape. If you add in "I don't know well" after the parts about assuming things about guys and being alone with guys, then those statements are accurate too. And, sometimes when you think you know a guy well, you may still have a problem guy who either hasn't expressed his deviance or one that you've overlooked any warning signs of deviance. This latter is often a factor in domestic violence.

 

I think the sane thing is to split the difference. Education is fine. Like I said before, everyone seems like they could use lessons in basic manners. I think we could add empathy to that too. But a healthy dose of awareness is also good. Adjusting habits to avoid being a crime victim are good. Being aware of your surroundings and who is around you at all times. Not straying too far from crowded areas when your alone. (Not that the crowd will help -- they won't, usually -- but criminals don't like witnesses.) Being aware of situations that call for extra alertness, such as knowing that entering and exiting a vehicle or home are vulnerable times, when you are distracted and criminals are more likely to act. That self service car washes are a hot spot for trouble (distracted victim again). Just being aware of all the times you are vulnerable and need to pay a little extra attention. Take sensible precautions such as using good door and window locks, planting that thorny plant under the window, and putting a motion activated light over your garage, and other inexpensive, easy to implement security precautions in your home. So, your twisted version isn't actually too bad of a jumping off point to being safer, though I know that wasn't your intent.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Reminds me of when I was training my poodle Puppeh. I used to say "no means no" as kind of joke when he was misbehaving. ie (NO! down!..... because no means no)LOL.

 

I don't know if that's going to make any sense or if any one else will see the humor in it. You probably had to be there and in my head to get it.

 

Having attempted to raise a dog I find that amusing

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

This is where I admit that I like chain-mail bikinis; but I don't demand them.

 

...I do look damn sexy in them though.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I don't think that makes a coherent point. I think you are trying to say that my singling out guys for annoying behavior is somehow sexist. That complaining about a Hispanic or Black hitting on a women and not taking no for an answer is racist? I think you are trying to throw up Reverse sexism as a defense.

 

I will say that no matter what gender hitting on someone and not taking no for an answer is bad. It is a form of sexual harassment no matter if guys or women do it. It seems to me in my experience it is FAR more likely to be a guy not taking no for an answer than a gal. We need to make sure that all of our children know that when someone says no that means they don't want to go out or be with the person making the proposition.

 

There is no such thing as "reverse sexism": sexism is sexism. Kind of like "reverse racism", come to think of it.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I will say that no matter what gender hitting on someone and not taking no for an answer is bad. It is a form of sexual harassment no matter if guys or women do it. It seems to me in my experience it is FAR more likely to be a guy not taking no for an answer than a gal. We need to make sure that all of our children know that when someone says no that means they don't want to go out or be with the person making the proposition.

 

Guys are often oblivious. I think we need to get the stupid notion that fighting for the the affections of the person you "love" will actually yield results out of their head. Then again, some guys are just cavemen.

 

I think there's a line that needs to be crossed before we're into sexual harassment territory when it comes to wooing a young woman. If the boy is well-mannered and not obnoxious or sexually provocative, and just doesn't understand when it's time to give up, I think a little leeway can be given due to immaturity or lack of understanding. If the overtures involve touching, or stalking, or acting out in any way, then we're more into sexual harassment territory.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Take sensible precautions such as using good door and window locks' date=' planting that thorny plant under the window, and putting a motion activated light over your garage, and other inexpensive, easy to implement security precautions in your home.[/quote']

 

Were you ever part of that nostalgic age where no one locked their doors, because "the neighborhood was just that safe"?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Were you ever part of that nostalgic age where no one locked their doors' date=' because "the neighborhood was just that safe"?[/quote']

When I lived in Corvallis.

Meredith Brooks wrote a song about it