Cassandra Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Accidental deaths of villains are another matter. Many of Batman's earlier enemies died through their own actions. Let's also remember the Avengers story where Hawkeye shoots an arrow into Egghead's energy pistol just before he was going to shoot Hank Pym in the back. The pistol exploded killing Egghead. Hawkeye didn't mean to kill him, and it was legally judge an accident. (That's what the GM is suppose to do to the mad killers) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice9 Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill 3) The Mob would cooperate to get rid of you. When Batman goes after one Criminal Enterprise' date=' it's in the best interest of their rivals not to help. After all, they might gain new territory and profit opportunities at least until the Dark Knight turns his attention on them. With a vigilante just killing any criminals it's best to get rid of him by whatever means necessary. Not only is he targeting your men, but you as well. No one is safe, and working with the other Mobs ends the threat ASAP.[/quote']The Dark Knight movie might disagree with you there. (That's what the GM is suppose to do to the mad killers) One thing that happens allot in these threads is people use terms like Normal Superhero games and "Comic book stories" like there's only one kind and anything that deviates from their preferred style is an aberration or even "Badwrongfun" to steal a term from rpg.net. Superhero stories come in a wide variety of moods and styles in the source material and various other mediums they've been told in. There really isn't a norm' date=' just styles that are more prevalent at the time.[/quote']Definitely true. In a Silver-Age game, superheroes probably shouldn't be killing anyone, but it's not a universal principle across all categories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill I think the best approach is for the GM and players, at the outset of a campaign, to discuss campaign lethality, and also for the GM to give their view on what the probable consequences of PCs using lethal force will be. If the group decides killing is normative, then the consequences probably aren't more than the PCs can handle. If the group decides that killing will be infrequent or the exception to the norm, then the consequences for the PCs are probably going to be pretty severe and perhaps a plot hook for a major story arc. If the group decides that killing, under almost any circumstances, is unacceptable, then the consequences for violators will be ultimate removal of their PC from the group(via prison, heel turn to supervillain, or revenge killing by the dead bad guy's pals). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualplayer Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill The public turned on Wonder Woman when she ripped Max Lord's head off. They will turn on you. Just ask Wonder Woman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill She didn't rip his head off. Just made it easier for him to be sure he wasn't being followed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill One thing that happens allot in these threads is people use terms like Normal Superhero games and "Comic book stories" like there's only one kind and anything that deviates from their preferred style is an aberration or even "Badwrongfun" to steal a term from rpg.net. Superhero stories come in a wide variety of moods and styles in the source material and various other mediums they've been told in. There really isn't a norm' date=' just styles that are more prevalent at the time.[/quote'] Why I have to generally agree, I also think not many people would Classify the Punisher (the bad end of the Scale) as a Hero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Why I have to generally agree' date=' I also think not many people would Classify the Punisher (the bad end of the Scale) as a Hero.[/quote'] Depends on which Punisher you are talking about: the psychopath that shoots jaywalkers or the revenge driven vigilante waging a war on violent criminals with the only weapons he has at hand. The latter is as much of a hero as any character in an action movie or novel (who kill regularly and with intent), he has a fanbase, his own series, etc. The psycho is a villain, an object lesson for a four color universe of the "wrong" way to do things. That was the original intent but the character has changed and grown (mutated?) as its been passed around. The main issue with Punisher is that, basically, he's in the wrong setting. He works in a world where things are broken, the system doesn't work and more extreme means are necessary (or at least understandable). In the mainstream Marvel universe that (was) generally not the case. He's an anachronism there, an anti hero at best. IMO, the best the Punisher as hero stories take place in their own side universe that works according to different tropes and mood. I really think that's largely the case with Punisher fans (allot of them anyway). Punisher is a square peg in a round hole, originally conceived as a villain. achieved a kind of popularity that lead to him being crammed into the "hero" role in a world where it didn't quite work and I think allot Marvel fans resent that. But there are other examples if you don't think Punisher is acceptable. Some of the more violent interpretations of Wolverine, Spawn, the WILDcats (allot of so called 90s characters), the Authority (particularly during the first run) some incarnations of DC's Vigilante and other street level characters. These character were willing to and employed lethal force much more often than their more four color counterparts but I would say a fair number of people would consider them heroes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill The main issue with Punisher is that' date=' basically, he's in the wrong setting. He works in a world where things are broken, the system doesn't work and more extreme means are necessary (or at least understandable). In the mainstream Marvel universe that (was) generally not the case.[/quote'] I would argue that the Punisher does fit in the Marvel universe, and that he is not a square peg-round hole case. It all comes down to how you see the world. Does the Avengers represent the world, or is it just a tiny little part of the world, and quite unrepresentative of it? I've always seen comic book "heroes" as the corner case, not the norm, for their world. It's great that they can save the world, and it's fun watching their adventures. I'll even admit they are often the type of person you want to emulate and look up to. Need someone to stop the alien invasion - they got you covered. But common crime in every large city - that they rarely do anything about. There either aren't enough of them to have an effect, the character ignores problems at that level, or the writers simply won't let them have an affect. Punisher has never been shown to ultimately have an affect on crime. He slows it down here and there, but just like Spider-Man and Batman, it goes back to normal as soon as he leaves. But for some of us, it is viscerally satisfying to have the bad guy bite the dust, and to know that specific piece of evil is never coming back. We're not looking for someone to look up to, or heroes, or for rehabilitation of criminals. Those things are needed in some stories, but not in every story. Anyone remember the Marvels storyline of some years back? It's a reporter covering early Marvel superheroes. It was a new way of looking at the superhero world. I thought it one of the best comic stores ever. There are super-powered individuals in the world, but the great majority are not. Having stories about people without powers, and having different goals and ethics is a good thing, in my opinion. We don't need every story to be about the Mr Fantastics and Captain Americas of the world - let us have Millie the Model and the Punisher as well, and show how they all live together in one world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill 4) A Vigilante will eventually kill an innocent person. That's the cliche, isn't it? In every story were someone decides killing criminals is right someone will use that against them. Someone will be framed and then revealed to be innocent after the vigilante kills them. Then you're "He's cool because he gives the criminals what they deserve" reputation turns into "He's a mad dog killer who murdered an innocent man". In the real world, I would expect that to happen. I would also expect the police and private detectives to quickly figure out the secret identity of most of those wearing costumes. There would be no secret bases, because everyone in the city would remember that 3-year construction project putting those underwater laboratories in the bay. Heroes that weren't bulletproof would quickly be shot because they didn't have the PC halo around them. We do the types if stories we want to see, and if we don't want to see the action hero go to court for shooting a bad guy, it doesn't have to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill OTOH, I'd still expect the prospect of post-mortem investigation and possible prosecution to introduce an element of restraint into the post-capture calculations of even the most "pragmatic" willing-to-kill PCs. Plus all the usual considerations like retaliation/escalation/media coverage/loss of endorsements/even henchmen fighting to the death because they figure you're going to kill them anyway/etc. The only way routine killing "works" in a campaign is if it's basically "baked in" to one. Otherwise, even in a very low realism setting, cause-effect and action-reaction will eventually lead to Total Party Kill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill There would be no secret bases' date=' because everyone in the city would remember that 3-year construction project putting those underwater laboratories in the bay.[/quote'] About the secret base, reality seems to disagree (especially note the two built by normal people in their free time): http://www.cracked.com/article_19421_7-mind-blowing-structures-built-in-secret.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Holck Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Who would the criminal community want to get rid of more, the Batman or the Punisher? Here are a few disadvantages to being a lethal force using vigilante (i.e., Punisher) 1) Criminal won't surrender to you ever. They know you will just kill them. Batman always takes them in alive so giving up might just avoid a beating. 2) The Police won't cooperate with you. It's illegal, and any who do would be accessories before and after the face. At least Gordon doesn't have to worry about that. 3) The Mob would cooperate to get rid of you. When Batman goes after one Criminal Enterprise, it's in the best interest of their rivals not to help. After all, they might gain new territory and profit opportunities at least until the Dark Knight turns his attention on them. With a vigilante just killing any criminals it's best to get rid of him by whatever means necessary. Not only is he targeting your men, but you as well. No one is safe, and working with the other Mobs ends the threat ASAP. 4) A Vigilante will eventually kill an innocent person. That's the cliche, isn't it? In every story were someone decides killing criminals is right someone will use that against them. Someone will be framed and then revealed to be innocent after the vigilante kills them. Then you're "He's cool because he gives the criminals what they deserve" reputation turns into "He's a mad dog killer who murdered an innocent man". 5) All the classic "bring them in alive" heroes will focus on you. You're giving them a bad reputation. You're endangering innocent people. Sure, Punisher might be able to give Batman a run for his money in a fair fight, but then again Batman doesn't right fair. Oh, and that doesn't take into account what happens if Punisher empties his clip into a shadowy figure and into to light steps a man in red and blue with a S on his chest. trust comes into question and fear limits ones social scope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balabanto Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill This is why my game doesn't have any true dark vigilantes a la The Punisher. Because after the first thousand deaths or so, the real response would be to call in my world's equivalent of the Avengers to fix the problem. Or, to use the Marvel Universe theory of language "Frank Castle, I say thee NAY!" The ridiculous idea that a guy like the Punisher could exist without being thought of as a villain by existing superheroes is crack on a stick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blau Stern Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill I find the thought of letting people like Joker, Red Skull, and a few other notable psychopaths live utterly repulsive. At the end of the day it is about numbers. "How many lives will I save, beyond a shadow of a doubt, if I kill this one person?" if the answer is "many" then it is worth what it for the character. Characters like that aren't people, they're monsters in human flesh, and you should treat them as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Miles Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill This is one of those statements that seems axiomatic initially, but which is actually subject to many fact-specific exceptions when given more scrutiny. One fictional example of such an exception would be Luke Skywalker blowing up the Death Star at the conclusion of Star Wars. That act was presented as heroic in the film. But, as been pointed out endlessly over the years, Luke doubtlessly would've killed many "unconscious" (if only sleeping) and "defenseless" people as well in the process. Maybe tens of thousands of them. Except it's nothing like that. The Death Star was a MILITARY installation/ship. Which means all on board are considered part of the MILITARY. The ENEMY military. Whether they were sleeping, or running the PX, or doing the dishes, they were still inhabiting a military installation/ship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blau Stern Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Except it's nothing like that. The Death Star was a MILITARY installation/ship. Which means all on board are considered part of the MILITARY. The ENEMY military. Whether they were sleeping, or running the PX, or doing the dishes, they were still inhabiting a military installation/ship. Could have sworn that Clerks ended that argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill A Kevin Smith joke does not an argument end... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix240 Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill A Kevin Smith joke does not an argument end... NOTHING short of the heat death of the Universe ends an ongoing Geek argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blau Stern Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill A Kevin Smith joke does not an argument end...It wasn't a joke, it was a legitimate point. The construction worker said "You know, any contractor willing to work on that Death Star knew the risks. If they were killed, it was their own fault. A roofer listens to this..." That's not very funny and it's not trying to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill It wasn't a joke' date=' it was a legitimate point. The construction worker said "You know, any contractor willing to work on that Death Star knew the risks. If they were killed, it was their own fault. A roofer listens to this..." That's not very funny and it's not trying to be.[/quote'] The point of "knowing the risks" would hold a lot more water if the settng didn't include a totalitarian government that was known to havee blown up at least one planet. What do you think would happen if they "black balled" your business? Note that I'm not arguing it was wrong to blow up either Deathstar or thatanyone on board was "inocent", my point is that it isn't a cut and dry thing just because you (or Smith) says so. Opinions on this will vary based on your philosophy and worldview. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blau Stern Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Better black balled than dead, it's a big Galaxy, you could work for someone less psychotic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Note the quotes on "black balled" in my previous post. Now imagine someone doing air quotes while saying "black balled". In ohter words, it was said ironically. The Empire blackballing you = you're dead (probably)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Could have sworn that Clerks ended that argument. Also most of the discussion was on the Second Deathstar. The First DeathStar was deemed a military base and anyone on it was fair game. I'll bet that all non-military personnel were off the 2nd DeathStar once they got all of the systems working. I am sure that once they had destroyed the Rebel fleet it would have gone back to the system that it was being constructed in and finished. So I'll bet that all non essential personnel were taken off the DSII before it went into battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blau Stern Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill Note the quotes on "black balled" in my previous post. Now imagine someone doing air quotes while saying "black balled". In ohter words' date=' it was said ironically. The Empire blackballing you = you're dead (probably)...[/quote']Everyone would have joined the rebellion if that were the case, instead of just a few people joining the rebellion. People don't like death threats as a part of their contract and they will sabotage whatever they're working on. The Death Star would have been plagued with issues rather than merely be waiting for completion. Plus it would have taken far longer than 4 years to go from "Death Star destroyed" to "We've mostly built a new Death Star that is literally hundreds of time bigger than the original." had there actually been any implications of "do this or we kill you" for the contractors. Simply put: people don't work that way. One of them will stand up to you in a meaningful manner. Especially with the kind of population it would take to build something like the Death Star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill If they did the work, they would be paid. The contracts would be enforced by the big army in white. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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