What Can’t Hero Do?

[Ndreare]

So I am a longtime lover of Hero System, and know that from my perspective the only thing Hero fails at is large scale combat. (We have two house rules that work for mass combat, but that is a different topic). What I am curious about is there something other than absolute effects the Hero Rules are missing, some element that needs to be added to make the game complete?

So is there something you have tried and tried but not been able to build or figure out Rules as Written.

 

[For the sake of this conversation I am referring to rules as written. If a GM r someone says no way I would allow that, is completely separate issue than Hero failing. And please exclude Mass Combat & Absolute Effects, unless you have a way to solve those you want to share.]

[bigbywolfe]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

Just out of curiosity, have you tried Hero's mass combat rules?

[Ndreare]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

yep, at least the ones published in fantasy hero. Was hat the ones you were referring to?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

Yup.

[The Main Man]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

RAW HERO lacks the freeform flexibility of more narrative systems. This is owed in some part by the presence of so many rules that you either ignore them for the sake of moving the game along or else you must invest quite a bit of time memorizing them all. Compare what you can do in systems like FATE or M&M. Now consider how you must buy everything remarkable about your character in HERO. HERO generally doesn't do freebies or one-shot stuff without house rules. Not even the Power skill counts because you still must buy it RAW.

 

Can similar things be done in HERO? Yes, but that's House Rule territory.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

Some people allow HAP to do everything a Power Skill can plus more, and while optional, they are RAW.

[psyber624]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

HERO can be accused of lacking granularity in the base rules on the low end of the scale (although a number of optional rules have been presented in various supplements to address some of these issues). This can lead to all characters being functionally identical once you get below a certain point total (For instance in another thread someone suggested a Criminal Minds/CSI type hero setting. However I don't see how you could make your characters functionally different in that level of a setting and keep the same point totals.)

[Egyptoid]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

Hero's mass combat rules?

 

Are these for sale in a hard-copy book that an FLGS can order ?

What is title ?

[Ndreare]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

Are these for sale in a hard-copy book that an FLGS can order ?

What is title ?

 

Fantasy Hero both sixth and fifth have them.

[Tasha]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

HERO can be accused of lacking granularity in the base rules on the low end of the scale (although a number of optional rules have been presented in various supplements to address some of these issues). This can lead to all characters being functionally identical once you get below a certain point total (For instance in another thread someone suggested a Criminal Minds/CSI type hero setting. However I don't see how you could make your characters functionally different in that level of a setting and keep the same point totals.)

 

Attacks tend to lack granularity at the Low end of the scale. Characters can be QUITE varied at the lower point totals (ie Non-Supers vs Superheroes). You can play the game at such a low powerlevel that things all start to look alike, but that's a danger with most RPG's.

[gojira]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

This might be obvious, but Hero doesn't do light-weight gaming well. You're not going to run a game of Toon with Hero.

[Tasha]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

This might be obvious' date=' but Hero doesn't do light-weight gaming well. You're not going to run a game of Toon with Hero.[/quote']

 

Also, Hero doesn't do absolutes. So Complete magic Resistance, being totally fireproof etc isn't something that the system does well. It also doesn't do "Automatic Hit" 3 shots and it Disintegrates the target. Of course none of those things are really balanced for a RPG.

[Escafarc]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

RAW HERO lacks the freeform flexibility of more narrative systems. This is owed in some part by the presence of so many rules that you either ignore them for the sake of moving the game along or else you must invest quite a bit of time memorizing them all. Compare what you can do in systems like FATE or M&M. Now consider how you must buy everything remarkable about your character in HERO. HERO generally doesn't do freebies or one-shot stuff without house rules. Not even the Power skill counts because you still must buy it RAW.

 

Can similar things be done in HERO? Yes, but that's House Rule territory.

You can make the Power Skill an Everyman Skill (I do for my Supers game) and that's allowed under RAW.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

You can squidge Hero into pretty much anything, but there are some powers and effects that it either does not do well, or that require a pretty nuanced build. There are also quite a few rules which appear to be there for game balance as opposed to forming part of an overall logical structure.

 

It is difficult, for example, to build a power that deflects missiles from an area. It is a pretty easy power to describe in 'real'* terms: a powerful electrostatic repulsion field applies lateral force to physical objects making them more likely to miss their intended target. Easy enough for bullets, which only have one target, but awkward for changing the impact point of an AoE attack that is targeted on a bit of landscape. You can DO it, sure, but it is messy.

 

I really do not see the rules generally, at least the very basic ones, as a problem though: I think they are pretty much as flexible as any other system. Take for example the Power Roll: I'm not saying it could not do with work, but why have a rule that lets every power be used in an unusual way? Hero just requires you to define your level of power flexibility up front. Buy a Power Roll, buy a framework, or just shoot vanilla. You get choice. Lots of characters shoot vanilla, always.

 

Want to leap over the bannister, grab a rope, swing half way across the room then jump onto the rampaging Ogre's back? Sure...well, actually, you can't because of that rule about not mixing movement, but that is an example of overprotective rules that we can do without and not miss rather than something that is necessarily integral to the system. Personally, I'd let you do it anyway with an Acrobatics roll at -2, and you'd get surprise (+1 OCV) if you succeed, or fall flat on your back at the Ogre's feet (prone) if you fail. I'd rather see that kind of drama coded into the rules than 'you can't run, jump and swim in the same turn'.

 

 

 

*When I say 'real', I mean 'game real'.

[Tasha]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

You can squidge Hero into pretty much anything, but there are some powers and effects that it either does not do well, or that require a pretty nuanced build. There are also quite a few rules which appear to be there for game balance as opposed to forming part of an overall logical structure.

 

It is difficult, for example, to build a power that deflects missiles from an area. It is a pretty easy power to describe in 'real'* terms: a powerful electrostatic repulsion field applies lateral force to physical objects making them more likely to miss their intended target. Easy enough for bullets, which only have one target, but awkward for changing the impact point of an AoE attack that is targeted on a bit of landscape. You can DO it, sure, but it is messy.

 

I really do not see the rules generally, at least the very basic ones, as a problem though: I think they are pretty much as flexible as any other system. Take for example the Power Roll: I'm not saying it could not do with work, but why have a rule that lets every power be used in an unusual way? Hero just requires you to define your level of power flexibility up front. Buy a Power Roll, buy a framework, or just shoot vanilla. You get choice. Lots of characters shoot vanilla, always.

 

Want to leap over the bannister, grab a rope, swing half way across the room then jump onto the rampaging Ogre's back? Sure...well, actually, you can't because of that rule about not mixing movement, but that is an example of overprotective rules that we can do without and not miss rather than something that is necessarily integral to the system. Personally, I'd let you do it anyway with an Acrobatics roll at -2, and you'd get surprise (+1 OCV) if you succeed, or fall flat on your back at the Ogre's feet (prone) if you fail. I'd rather see that kind of drama coded into the rules than 'you can't run, jump and swim in the same turn'.

 

*When I say 'real', I mean 'game real'.

 

I am really starting to wonder if we shouldn't just ditch the "Attack ends the Phase" and go to something more like D&D 3e and later. Where one gets 2 half phases, but only one attack action. That one could attack and still move. My group experimented with this around this time last year or so. It seemed to go pretty well. I know that this is one of Hero's "Sacred Cows", but it's something that we should explore going forward.

[gojira]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

There's also just using "Move-By" for any Attack-then-move action. I think you have to adjudicate which portion of the movement, if any, gains the velocity bonus to damage, but Move-By seems to work ok for a lot of situations.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

There's also just using "Move-By" for any Attack-then-move action. I think you have to adjudicate which portion of the movement' date=' if any, gains the velocity bonus to damage, but Move-By seems to work ok for a lot of situations.[/quote']

Moveby has huge penalties for simply attacking then moving which other systems allow for free.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

Moveby has huge penalties for simply attacking then moving which other systems allow for free.

 

Do those other systems base initiative on a stat or just a random roll?

 

On the surface, it looks like allowing movement after attack actions would further reward having the highest initiative.

It bears noting for newbies that in HERO Initiative is a quantified stat that can be increased directly.

[Cassandra]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

Large scale combat results in destruction on a large scale. Perhaps armies attacks could be represented by Megascale AE. Large scale units could be built as characters. Perhaps the number of individual solders or sub units could represented by the points the unit is built on.

 

Anyone want to play the 101st airborne?

[phoenix240]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

I really do not see the rules generally, at least the very basic ones, as a problem though: I think they are pretty much as flexible as any other system. Take for example the Power Roll: I'm not saying it could not do with work, but why have a rule that lets every power be used in an unusual way? Hero just requires you to define your level of power flexibility up front. Buy a Power Roll, buy a framework, or just shoot vanilla. You get choice. Lots of characters shoot vanilla, always.

 

Want to leap over the bannister, grab a rope, swing half way across the room then jump onto the rampaging Ogre's back? Sure...well, actually, you can't because of that rule about not mixing movement, but that is an example of overprotective rules that we can do without and not miss rather than something that is necessarily integral to the system. Personally, I'd let you do it anyway with an Acrobatics roll at -2, and you'd get surprise (+1 OCV) if you succeed, or fall flat on your back at the Ogre's feet (prone) if you fail. I'd rather see that kind of drama coded into the rules than 'you can't run, jump and swim in the same turn'.

 

Wouldn't that be an example of an "action" split across more than one Phases?

[Tasha]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

There's also just using "Move-By" for any Attack-then-move action. I think you have to adjudicate which portion of the movement' date=' if any, gains the velocity bonus to damage, but Move-By seems to work ok for a lot of situations.[/quote']

 

It's just a silly restriction that reminds me of the old -1 OCV if character moved during the phase. I am not really sure what would break by moving to the can move after attack system. I don't remember any issues coming up when we tried it.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

It's just a silly restriction that reminds me of the old -1 OCV if character moved during the phase. I am not really sure what would break by moving to the can move after attack system. I don't remember any issues coming up when we tried it.

Well, Hyper-Man did make this point:

On the surface, it looks like allowing movement after attack actions would further reward having the highest initiative.

It bears noting for newbies that in HERO Initiative is a quantified stat that can be increased directly.

[Egyptoid]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

....Power Skill ... RAW....

My google almost failed me. What is this new usage of "Power Skill" ??

to me it was for manipulating power pools and spells.

 

oh okay:

Power Skill can also be used to use one's Powers in creative ways that are not bought with points. For example, a fire controlling flying character wants to write a message in letters of flame in the sky. If bought as a Power this would be Images, but if no such Power was bought and paid for he still may be able to do that with a Power Skill roll.

 

 

---> and RAW is "Rules as Written"

which is good because 2 people hardly ever read the same paragraph and go 2 different ways with it.

 

now I'm all caught up.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

 

Want to leap over the bannister, grab a rope, swing half way across the room then jump onto the rampaging Ogre's back? Sure...well, actually, you can't because of that rule about not mixing movement, but that is an example of overprotective rules that we can do without and not miss rather than something that is necessarily integral to the system. Personally, I'd let you do it anyway with an Acrobatics roll at -2, and you'd get surprise (+1 OCV) if you succeed, or fall flat on your back at the Ogre's feet (prone) if you fail. I'd rather see that kind of drama coded into the rules than 'you can't run, jump and swim in the same turn'.

 

 

This situation is the exact reason I don't use a lot of RAW. To me, the rules are guidelines. A basic framework that gives me the mechanics to model physical reality to some degree. As the GM, it is my job to adjust that framework as necessary to facilitate the feel of the genre I am attempting to simulate. The RAW is not important. The flow of the game is what is most important. If RAW gets in the way of feel or flow, RAW loses.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: What Can’t Hero Do?

 

My google almost failed me. What is this new usage of "Power Skill" ??

What are you defining as "new"? It was that way in 5E so it's been like that for at least 2 editions and over a decade​.