Hit Locations, too high or just right?

[Beriadan]

I have been having an argument with one of my players ever since I introduced him to the game. His argument is that the OCV penalty for called shots on the Hit Location chart are too high, and I argue they are just right. I was wondering what everyone else had to say on the subject.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

They seem fine to me. They're probably skewed more for balance than 'realism', but I think that's as it should be.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

I think the general rule in Hero is a -2 OCV each time the target size is cut in half. So a body part with a -8 location penalty would be the equivalent of a target 1/16th full body size. For head shots, that penalty might be a little high, but OTOH, most people have enough sense to be extra-cautious about protecting their head. For "vitals" it really depends on how the location is defined. Some GMs don't seem to consider it a specific location at all -- it just means a hit to any "vital" spot. Others (including myself) treat it as a very specific location "below the belt", in which case a -8 OCV penalty is probably a bit too lower than it should be.

 

On the whole, I think it all evens out.

[Tasha]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

I have been having an argument with one of my players ever since I introduced him to the game. His argument is that the OCV penalty for called shots on the Hit Location chart are too high' date=' and I argue they are just right. I was wondering what everyone else had to say on the subject.[/color']

 

From a "realism" point of view they are probably a bit harsh. From a Game balance point of view they actually work really well for Killing Attacks. I have been playing games using those hit location charts for around 2 and a half decades (25 years or so). Actually with how cheap Penalty Skill levels are and how cheap skill levels with a single weapon are. The Called shot modifiers are just fine. One of my last heroic characters was a marksman and routinely called chest as a location.

 

BTW also look into the tight hit locations (ie High shots etc). They are easier to hit and reduce the number of locations being rolled for. They tend to center on things like hands and Thighs, but their Bell Curves tend to be flatter or flat (2d6 or 1d6)

[Tasha]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

I think the general rule in Hero is a -2 OCV each time the target size is cut in half. So a body part with a -8 location penalty would be the equivalent of a target 1/16th full body size. For head shots, that penalty might be a little high, but OTOH, most people have enough sense to be extra-cautious about protecting their head. For "vitals" it really depends on how the location is defined. Some GMs don't seem to consider it a specific location at all -- it just means a hit to any "vital" spot. Others (including myself) treat it as a very specific location "below the belt", in which case a -8 OCV penalty is probably a bit too lower than it should be.

 

On the whole, I think it all evens out.

 

Yeah every guy tends to think it's that "special spot" below the belt location

 

It really IS supposed to represent a Heart Shot, a shot that severs a major artery, Shot to the spine, things similar to those that are centered on the torso.

[Lucius]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Yeah every guy tends to think it's that "special spot" below the belt location

 

It really IS supposed to represent a Heart Shot, a shot that severs a major artery, Shot to the spine, things similar to those that are centered on the torso.

 

One reason is that, for us, it really IS the most vital part of our anatomy. But mostly it's because of the way the chart is set set up, with 12 being belly and 14 being thighs.

 

You're 100% right of course that it's supposed to be any vital target that will do grave damage if struck, such as for example the heart. I know that but still can't resist the occasional jest such as "Have you seen Surbrook's Tanuki? The Location 13 goes all the way to Location 15."

 

As for the original topic: Tell the player "We'll try it your way for a while." Then ask if his opinion has changed when he's lost a couple of characters to headshots.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary takes a headshot and keeps going, and now it's mad

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

From a "realism" point of view they are probably a bit harsh. From a Game balance point of view they actually work really well for Killing Attacks. I have been playing games using those hit location charts for around 2 and a half decades (25 years or so). Actually with how cheap Penalty Skill levels are and how cheap skill levels with a single weapon are. The Called shot modifiers are just fine. One of my last heroic characters was a marksman and routinely called chest as a location.

 

I'd say they're just right for the real world. (Ever tried for a head shot, in the real world, in the heat of combat? ...Me neither.)

 

I can't find a link to the FBI stats, but as I recall most gunfights take place within six feet of one another, and at that range about 90% of all shots taken miss. And according to US Army stats, something like 10,000 rounds of ammunition expended results in one hit.

 

When adrenaline is up, your hands are shaking, and someone is trying to kill you back, you're lucky enough to hit a part you're not aiming at, much less one you are.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Yeah every guy tends to think it's that "special spot" below the belt location

 

It really IS supposed to represent a Heart Shot, a shot that severs a major artery, Shot to the spine, things similar to those that are centered on the torso.

 

I'd buy that, except the Hit Location chart is very consistent with starting at the top and working its way down, putting Location 13 below Location 12 (The Stomach).

 

Of course, there's a fair length of body there. So, location 13 *can* include the groin, but it doesn't *have* to. The intestines and kidneys (depending on the angle) would also be valid.

[brionl]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

As Tasha says, a lot of game players eventually come to a decision that playability/balance are more important than realism. I'm entirely of that opinion myself.

 

Most players only want "realistic" hit locations or crit charts when they think they are going to be using them against NPCs. When the NPCs start using them against the players, the enthusiasm goes way down

[Ragitsu]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

As Tasha says, a lot of game players eventually come to a decision that playability/balance are more important than realism. I'm entirely of that opinion myself.

 

Most players only want "realistic" hit locations or crit charts when they think they are going to be using them against NPCs. When the NPCs start using them against the players, the enthusiasm goes way down

 

No reason you can't have one set of rules differ for NPCs.

[Greywind]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Why can't the players buy skill levels to offset the hit location penalties? The GM doesn't have to do that unless it is to build a specific chart whose schtick that is.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Yeah every guy tends to think it's that "special spot" below the belt location

 

It really IS supposed to represent a Heart Shot, a shot that severs a major artery, Shot to the spine, things similar to those that are centered on the torso.

 

OMG, did you just preface a post with "every guy?" How very sexist... I'm scandalized!

 

Okay, that's enough faux outrage. I am NOT that thin-skinned.

 

I think we're down to "What's the RAW say?" at this point because both options are going to raise different questions.

 

The main issue I've run into with not pinning location 13 to a single spot is "Does the character's armor cover this?" Without pinning down a specific location, that question becomes more difficult to answer in some cases. A shot to a "major artery" could be a number of locations: the neck and thighs have major arteries, for example.

 

With regards to the original question: in either case I don't really have a problem with a -8 OCV penalty; I think it's about right. It might even be a bit low, but a -9 or more would be simply unplayable.

 

And to Greywind: Penalty Skill Levels for Hit Locations are quite common in my games, actually. It's a game mechanic that's simply too useful to ignore, for defining a character's tactics as well as their personality. For example:

 

This might make Tasha roll her eyes again, for which I apologize in advance.

 

Hit 'em where it hurts!: Penalty Skill Levels: +8 vs. Hit Location modifiers with All Attacks; only to target location #13 (vitals) (-1)

[Greywind]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

...all arteries are "major".

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

...all arteries are "major".

 

No, but if you don't hit a "major" artery, then you don't get the extra Body and Stun damage for hitting the "Vital" location. Hence the -8 penalty: hitting an artery is easy; hitting one that counts is hard.

[Greywind]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

If you're the one doing the bleeding, they all count.

[bluesguy]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Series of comments:

 

 

• I think the adjustments are just fine - especially in a heroic game setting where there is killing attacks tend to be more common.
  
• Vitals : I have always thought of this as being hit in the kidneys, belly, under the rib cage, and even certain spots on your thighs where you might bleed out in a minute or two.
  
• Penalty/Combat Skill Levels: One of the characters in my fantasy game is an archer. When she uses her 'martial archery accurate shot' + penalty skill levels for placed shots + penalty skill levels to offset range + her combat levels she can regularly (75%) hit a 'minion' in the head from 1/2 way across the game table. She can also take head shots against major villains and hit somewhat regularly (50%). That is ok - some of the villains have learned about this and are now buying special helmets (25% rPD damage reduction ) - too expensive for minions. Others are using ranged attacks back at her and she is often at 1/2 DCV
  

[griffinman01]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

I've always assumed that Vitals were pretty much any internal organ (heart, lungs, etc) which is why it does as much damage as getting shot in the head (at least in terms of Body). As such I'd pretty much assume that any chest armor would probably stop them just for simplicity's sake (I wouldn't even begin to get into an argument about picking specific arteries to hit in order to bypass someone's armor).

 

As for the penalties, they're harsh but fair. I can agree that shooting accurately while under fire is damn tough (unlike the movies) because I have a hard enough time hitting a stationary target that accurately at the firing range. Trying to do it in the middle of a fight would be tough and would require some serious skill on the part of the shooter (though things like scopes definitely make it easier). If it's a big issue in-game though, just buy a couple of combat levels to help out with called shots. They'll still be tough, but you'll have a better chance than a 3 with them.

[phoenix240]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

One reason is that, for us, it really IS the most vital part of our anatomy. But mostly it's because of the way the chart is set set up, with 12 being belly and 14 being thighs.

 

You're 100% right of course that it's supposed to be any vital target that will do grave damage if struck, such as for example the heart. I know that but still can't resist the occasional jest such as "Have you seen Surbrook's Tanuki? The Location 13 goes all the way to Location 15."

 

As for the original topic: Tell the player "We'll try it your way for a while." Then ask if his opinion has changed when he's lost a couple of characters to headshots.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary takes a headshot and keeps going, and now it's mad

 

That certain pieces of sectional armor were assigned location 13 and that "Low Blow" Dirty Infighting maneuver was assigned that spot as its automatic location and one of the defenses were protection over it certainly helped with the perception it was a groin hit. But yeah, most Hero players I've met (men and women) assume its the groin.

[Tasha]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

I've always assumed that Vitals were pretty much any internal organ (heart, lungs, etc) which is why it does as much damage as getting shot in the head (at least in terms of Body). As such I'd pretty much assume that any chest armor would probably stop them just for simplicity's sake (I wouldn't even begin to get into an argument about picking specific arteries to hit in order to bypass someone's armor).

 

As for the penalties, they're harsh but fair. I can agree that shooting accurately while under fire is damn tough (unlike the movies) because I have a hard enough time hitting a stationary target that accurately at the firing range. Trying to do it in the middle of a fight would be tough and would require some serious skill on the part of the shooter (though things like scopes definitely make it easier). If it's a big issue in-game though, just buy a couple of combat levels to help out with called shots. They'll still be tough, but you'll have a better chance than a 3 with them.

 

Also the smart player will figure out that those 2 penalty skill levels applied toward chest shots make for a nice smoothing of the Hit Location chart. a Guaranteed x3 Stun Mult on top of a x1 BODY location make for a nice way to apply skill levels. It becomes even better with a +1 stun Mult Weapon.

 

Yeah it also doesn't hurt when you have time to really Set to hit a target with your nicest scope with no one there to mess with you aim. It's fun exploding the heads of Gou'uld Hosts that shouldn't be on your planet. From a safe spot around a Half a Kilometer from your target Yeah I had a character that could make that shot and actually hit it. One to the engine block, One to the head of the driver when he got out, and another to the other's head when he stuck his head up looking for where the last shot came from. (Happy thoughts from our Stargate Campaign)

[phoenix240]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

I think the Hit Location penalties are a little high but work as far as game balance is concerned which is more important to me than "realism". It also plays well with the source material. Constant head shots are a sign of great skill, luck or something special. Otherwise you get games like Cyberpunk 2020 where anyone even slightly skilled with firearms makes called head shot every time and that's generally not something you see in adventure fiction.

 

For some genres (zombie horror for instance) they can be a little too high but there are ways around that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

In practice, the penalties tend to work out just fine. Especially when other tactics are brought to play (like Entangling the target first), or if you really want, PSLs vs Hit Locations are pretty cheap.

 

One thing you can do to make players feel better, and help add a more Heroic Edge is to allow players to assign Skill Levels to "Hit Locations" and allow them to adjust the Hit Location Roll by as many Skill Levels as they put in to move the Hit Loc number; i.e. If I put "2 Levels in Hit Location" and roll an 11 I can turn that into a 13 or a 9. More options, sure, but it can help take the sting out of "oh gee, I just hit the Held mook in the hand...." rolls.

[Tasha]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

I think the Hit Location penalties are a little high but work as far as game balance is concerned which is more important to me than "realism". It also plays well with the source material. Constant head shots are a sign of great skill, luck or something special. Otherwise you get games like Cyberpunk 2020 where anyone even slightly skilled with firearms makes called head shot every time and that's generally not something you see in adventure fiction.

 

For some genres (zombie horror for instance) they can be a little too high but there are ways around that.

 

I figure that Shamblers are at least half DCV or they start with extremely low DCV.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

I figure that Shamblers are at least half DCV or they start with extremely low DCV.

Yeah, 1 or 2 DCV. Plus since they don't actively dodge I might allow the "out of combat" 1/2DCV 1/2 penalty to Hit Locations until they reach HtH range and you have to be evasive.

[phoenix240]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

I gave them a Physical Limitation: No Survival Instincts. They're were treated as Surprised in Combat as far as DCV went. Another options I've seen employed is to fake it. Give the Walkers reasonable/Moderately high defenses and describe attacks which do Body as "head hits" perhaps with a vulnerability to actual called shots to the "head".

[Tom Carman]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

No reason you can't have one set of rules differ for NPCs.

 

In Supers games with a GM who has since moved away, PCs and super NPCs were not subject to hit locations. Normals (talking bystanders, not mooks) who took super-level attacks did roll for hit location. The point was that Normals were fragile, so watch your aim.