Should there be a Modifier for Extra SFX?

[Killer Shrike]

Lets say I want an EB or RKA (or another damage based attack power).

 

For SFX my power calls on the "All Force" and is every energy type. It will affect any Susceptibility or Vulnerability to any energy type. Conversely it can be Adjusted as a power of any energy type. Any of the minor SFX-based tricks that other characters with energy powers can do, I can do because my power is of that energy type too.

 

Should I have to pay for this behavior or does it balance out?

 

Personally, I think egregiously broad SFX like this should cost, perhaps +1/4 for 3 or more SFX, and +1/2 for broad SFX (like all energy forms, all magic types, etc).

 

Thoughts?

[Talon]

I certainly don't allow "meta" SFX without some sort of extra purchase. Rather than a custom Advantage, I'd probably require Variable SFX with maybe a Sense (perhaps even Precog) so you knew what FX to use against a given target.

 

I've also seen this done as simply buying extra damage, only vs. targets with some sort of susceptibility/vulnerability/gap in their defenses.

[dugfromthearth]

this is not actually a SFX.

 

You fire a blast of 12d6 of "all energy types". You hit someone vulnerable to lightning.

 

Not all 12d6 is lightning. Maybe 1d6 is ightning, 1d6 is fire, 1d6 is cold, 1d6 is laser, etc.

 

So you could define it in that manner - divide it up by d6 and define the SFX for each d6 separately.

 

Suppose you hit someone with a vulnerability to fire and lightning. Do you want the benefits of both vulns?

 

What if someone has vuln to lightning but 50% damage reduction to fire?

 

Or just +20 ED vs fire.

 

I would not allow someone to define a power as simultaneously having multiple special effects.

 

of course to switch SFX from lightning to fire, etc is a +1/4 advantage.

[Pattern Ghost]

I remember the old Ultimate Powers Book for the FASERIP Marvel game. They had Plasma. Essentially, you got an attack with two special effects. They had a long list. I can see heat/radiation or electricity/light combined as SFX. I can see maybe three SFX combined into a power depending on how it's defined. But not all SFX. And more than one at a time should definately cost extra.

[xylaus]

I seem to remember something about a "Kryptonite Man" question. I would think it would be problematic to say the least to have a character that trips off any suceptibility (spelling ?) with each attack.

 

It smells like a Cosmic Power Pool to me...or something close. I would probably just say no to save time, but at least a +1 1/2 for something like that.

 

Just my two cents.

[BNakagawa]

IMO, every special effect simultaneously is the same as no special effect.

 

You have generic damage, you get no vulnerabilities or susceptibilities.

 

When GL flies close to the sun, he doesn't fry, even though the sun's spectrum contains yellow light of sufficient intensity to fry an unshielded human. (and GL's shielding doesn't work against yellow)

 

So your power which contains elements of every sfx mixed together doesn't trigger limitations or susceptibilities.

 

$0.02

[pinecone]

I'd probibly treat it as the same as a "Variable special effect" so eather +1/4 or +1/2 depending on how spiffy you want it to be.....

[Fedifensor]

Originally posted by pinecone

I'd probibly treat it as the same as a "Variable special effect" so eather +1/4 or +1/2 depending on how spiffy you want it to be.....

Also remember that if it is all types of energy, a drain of any energy type will affect it.

[Gary Ciaramella]

With variable SFX, it is +1/4 for a narrow group of SFX and +1/2 for a broad group... one at a time. Depending on the player and the possibility that he would be abusing this, I'd either make it a +1/4 for a total of +3/4... or I would double it for a +1. Probably the +3/4 though.

[zornwil]

It does sound pretty abusive, frankly. Is there no way to defeat this EB? I have a hard time buying its omni-purposefulness.

 

Anyway, it's your game. I personally would go with the "affects all powers of an SFX" for +2 if the full power is going to hit anyone equally with all the composing types of power, however that works. A slightly cheaper and more fun variation would be to indicate a Limitation, "Only a portion of power relates to any given energy type", assuming that each energy type can't possibly deliver an attack up to the total dice. Assuming it's half effect against anyone's Vulnerabiltiy, Susceptibility, etc., I'd say that's a -1/2 limitation (though some may argue more) coupled with the +2 advantage above. I realize that's still expensive but, those being the only two modifiers, it's the same as a +1 advantage by itself, which to me seems fair. That EB is going to go a LONG way, it'll defeat many types of defenses and will hit many vulnerabilities/susceptibilies. +1 is entirely a fair effective modifier in my eyes with the limitation above, +2 if it's completely unlimited.

 

The only way I'd ratchet that advantage down would be if the campaign/GM really does not feature that much in the way of specifically-geared defenses and weaknesses.

[Killer Shrike]

Actually, no one wants to use this in my campaign per se, but I was working on a version of Prismatic Spray, the classic old D&D Spell, which is basically 7 different types of energy and got to thinking, theres not really any defined limit to the number of SFX an attack can be, which struck me as suprising.

[Gary]

Variable special effects at the +1/2 level isn't as good as the power you're describing, since the user must pick out 1 single special effect each time and could guess wrong. He could also run into a foe without vulnerabilities, susceptibilities, or side effects.

 

At the +1 level, it's too expensive an advantage. That's because you could simply buy double the dice for the same cost and you're essentially inflicting a 2X "vulnerability" on every foe you face. (This does break down if you're stacking other advantages on the power).

 

Therefore, by process of deduction the advantage should be +3/4.

[dugfromthearth]

"At the +1 level, it's too expensive an advantage. That's because you could simply buy double the dice for the same cost and you're essentially inflicting a 2X "vulnerability" on every foe you face."

 

That is a good point.

 

So maybe the way to handle it is to buy double the dice and have half of them with the limitation -1/2 only if the target has a vulnerability.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Gary

Variable special effects at the +1/2 level isn't as good as the power you're describing, since the user must pick out 1 single special effect each time and could guess wrong. He could also run into a foe without vulnerabilities, susceptibilities, or side effects.

 

At the +1 level, it's too expensive an advantage. That's because you could simply buy double the dice for the same cost and you're essentially inflicting a 2X "vulnerability" on every foe you face. (This does break down if you're stacking other advantages on the power).

 

Therefore, by process of deduction the advantage should be +3/4.

 

Also, this will affect Susceptibiliities (by definiton), which means merely firing will affect people in the area.

 

Finally, given how often you'll bypass someone's Force Field defenses or disable their EC or otherwise screw up their character, I think this is really a very powerful ability.

 

But it depends on your campaign. It would wreak substantial issues, though not showstopper ones, in my campaign. I could easily imagine +3/4.working in other games. Heck, in games where SFX aren't even defined most of the time, I suppose it'd be more like +1/4.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Gary

Variable special effects at the +1/2 level isn't as good as the power you're describing, since the user must pick out 1 single special effect each time and could guess wrong. He could also run into a foe without vulnerabilities, susceptibilities, or side effects.

 

At the +1 level, it's too expensive an advantage. That's because you could simply buy double the dice for the same cost and you're essentially inflicting a 2X "vulnerability" on every foe you face. (This does break down if you're stacking other advantages on the power).

 

Therefore, by process of deduction the advantage should be +3/4.

 

I concur.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Gary

Variable special effects at the +1/2 level isn't as good as the power you're describing, since the user must pick out 1 single special effect each time and could guess wrong. He could also run into a foe without vulnerabilities, susceptibilities, or side effects.

 

At the +1 level, it's too expensive an advantage. That's because you could simply buy double the dice for the same cost and you're essentially inflicting a 2X "vulnerability" on every foe you face. (This does break down if you're stacking other advantages on the power).

 

Therefore, by process of deduction the advantage should be +3/4.

 

Except that, as a +1 Advantage, every subsequent Advantage that you slap onto it (reduced END, Area of Effect, NND etc.) is going to cost half as much as it would if you were using a base Power of the same Active Points. That's a significant benefit.

 

I'd keep the advantage at the +1 level myself. As you say, it's like doubling the dice to give a "2x Vulnerability" to everyone, but this way there are other benefits.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Except that, as a +1 Advantage, every subsequent Advantage that you slap onto it (reduced END, Area of Effect, NND etc.) is going to cost half as much as it would if you were using a base Power of the same Active Points. That's a significant benefit.

 

I'd keep the advantage at the +1 level myself. As you say, it's like doubling the dice to give a "2x Vulnerability" to everyone, but this way there are other benefits.

 

I did allude to this factor in my original post.

 

I'm of the opinion that an advantage should be able to stand on its own.

 

There are benefits to an omni-effect EB over double the dice. An Omni-effect EB triggers off susceptibilities, side effects, and limitations of the target. However, its drawback is huge compared to doubling the dice. Many characters don't have an energy vulnerability, and of the ones who do, many of them have it at only 1.5X level, not double. And the ones who have it at 2X level don't always have it to both stun and body. Also, knockback is doubled compared to the Omni-effect EB.

 

These drawbacks are so huge, that I can't see justifying a +1 advantage for it.

[Trebuchet]

I wouldn't allow such an Advantage at all, for three reasons:

 

1) It's a blatant attempt to meta-game an Advantage; and hence should be slapped down with extreme prejudice.

 

2) If such a hypothetical "all possible SFX" Advantage were permitted, some of its special effects would be mutually contradictory. How would you do a freezing heat blast, or a dark energy/light energy blast? Energy blasts can be physical attacks; would such an Advantage be both energy (vs. ED) and physical (thus vs. PD)? SFX can include grenades and lasers, how would you reconcile exploding coherent light beams? Given the virtually infinite possible SFX for energy blasts in HERO, as a purely practical measure it's unworkable.

 

3) Most importantly, this takes away the specialness of any other energy-projecting character in the group. If Evil Guyâ„¢ can only be felled by Lightning Kid's lightning bolt, how is Lightning Kid's player going to feel when Omni-Blastman's EB can also trigger Evil Guy's 2X Vulnerability to electrical attacks?

 

The rules are quite clear on this subject: Special effect trumps Power construction. This concept is pure 100% Velveeta.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

I wouldn't allow such an Advantage at all, for three reasons:

 

1) It's a blatant attempt to meta-game an Advantage; and hence should be slapped down with extreme prejudice.

 

2) If such a hypothetical "all possible SFX" Advantage were permitted, some of its special effects would be mutually contradictory. How would you do a freezing heat blast, or a dark energy/light energy blast? Energy blasts can be physical attacks; would such an Advantage be both energy (vs. ED) and physical (thus vs. PD)? SFX can include grenades and lasers, how would you reconcile exploding coherent light beams? Given the virtually infinite possible SFX for energy blasts in HERO, as a purely practical measure it's unworkable.

 

3) Most importantly, this takes away the specialness of any other energy-projecting character in the group. If Evil Guyâ„¢ can only be felled by Lightning Kid's lightning bolt, how is Lightning Kid's player going to feel when Omni-Blastman's EB can also trigger Evil Guy's 2X Vulnerability to electrical attacks?

 

The rules are quite clear on this subject: Special effect trumps Power construction. This concept is pure 100% Velveeta.

 

You know, he does have a pretty good point there. Several, really.

[zornwil]

I agree with Treb's points as well. I've got to assume though that Killer Shrike, who is no newbie, has a setting that justifies it for his/his group's purposes.

[Farkling]

Having the Velveeta

 

Professor Farkling's Metadyne OmniProjector patent pending review.

 

Detect Energy Vulnerability (Sense, Range, Discriminatory, Analyze, Rapid x10)

 

VPP Power Pool (Can build EB/RKA Only) - SFX: Omnipower, Cosmic Modifiers

In Pool::

 

xd6 EB, SFX: as detected, IPE (+1/2) - OmniBeam "overwrites" SFX energy.

Possibly to include advantages. I point at the VPP as the only way I can think of to change generated SFX's, other than the grouped Variable SFX.

 

Perhaps you can have your special effect, and your cheese. An omni toasted-cheese sandwich.

[zornwil]

Re: Having the Velveeta

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Professor Farkling's Metadyne OmniProjector patent pending review.

 

Detect Energy Vulnerability (Sense, Range, Discriminatory, Analyze, Rapid x10)

 

VPP Power Pool (Can build EB/RKA Only) - SFX: Omnipower, Cosmic Modifiers

In Pool::

 

xd6 EB, SFX: as detected, IPE (+1/2) - OmniBeam "overwrites" SFX energy.

Possibly to include advantages. I point at the VPP as the only way I can think of to change generated SFX's, other than the grouped Variable SFX.

 

Perhaps you can have your special effect, and your cheese. An omni toasted-cheese sandwich.

 

This is fine, and a much better solution than saying that the EB always fires all forms of energy. Nice suggestion, Farkling. It just needs some of its own SFX (what defeats the detect? how does this create the energy form?) to fly now. It isn't really what was asked for, but I think this is a good suggestion for Killer Shrike.

[Kristopher]

There was an NPC in one of my campaigns named Scanner, who had the inate ability to sense "weaknesses". He had a focus called a Paradox Gun, which was an EB with full variable FX.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Re: Having the Velveeta

 

Originally posted by zornwil

This is fine, and a much better solution than saying that the EB always fires all forms of energy. Nice suggestion, Farkling. It just needs some of its own SFX (what defeats the detect? how does this create the energy form?) to fly now. It isn't really what was asked for, but I think this is a good suggestion for Killer Shrike.

I agree this is a much better solution than an "Omni-beam". More importantly, it's game legal, uses an already existing Advantage and doesn't require any GM handwaving to make it work.

[Farkling]

As I ponder it, I think the IPE should be a +1/4, or perhaps there is a 1/4 lim on it.

 

The attack is still VISIBLE, the energy form is obscured. Whaddaya think?

 

I picture that the detect works on the same things that would block the character's targetting senses...nebulous, I know. I'd not thought it over in specific terms.