Why run Hero 6th?

[NuSoardGraphite]

If its an important piece of adventuring equipment, then i simply assign it whaterver bonus or effect it's supposed to have. i don't figure out costs or anything. (Climbing gear: +3 to climbing rolls, 50 silver. torches: lights 3 meter radius. 1 copper/10)

 

You can even have special equipment done this way:

 

Jousting saddle: +2 to riding rolls to avoid dishorse.

 

Tinderbox: +3 to survival to start fires.

 

Etc.

 

Only list the effect if you feel it might be important in your games. in the case of the tinderbox, under normal circumstances i wouldn't require a roll to start a normal campfire, but if in a scenario where there was a time constraint and a character wanted to start a fire quickly using their survival skill, use of the tinderbox could give them the bonus they need to be successful in the time allotted. it's all relative.

[mhd]

Most equipment doesn't need stats, or even bonuses. It's simply the background dressing required for some skills (climbing equipment, lockpicks) or falls outside of the granularity and focus that the HERO rules provide (you don't really want to build pickaxes and shovels with Powers).

 

Actually, I'd think twice about any item that provides a bonus. The HERO granularity isn't too high, and a +1 bonus or +1 DC is a lot. We all know that the quality of most tools vary wildly, but is it enough to provide a bonus to a roll? I'd say that most professionals spend a rather large amount of time and money on stuff that wouldn't be reflected in HERO terms.

 

And it often means that magical bonuses have to be even higher, leading to bonus inflation.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Well, in general, equipment can give a bonus to a skill unless that equipment were essential to the skill. climbing equipment is a perfect example. You don't need the equipment to implement the skill, however the equipment might be necesary to overcome a situation that has a high difficulty and the equipment gives you a bonus to help overcome said difficulty.

 

However, you cannot use the weaponsmith skill to make or repair weapons without a forge and tools, so in that case the tools are necessary for the basic function of your skill, so no bonus, unless the forge and tools are of unusually high quality, in which case the forge could be rated with a bonus (+1 to +3) which allows blacksmiths to use that forge to produce superior works with a higher difficulty to the skill roll.

 

It may be that i make more frequent use of difficulties than some others which why i might be inclined to give bonuses out to a lot of mundane equipment.

[Hugh Neilson]

The equipment question is really two questions. 

 

"Do you need to build the equipment with points, carefully statting out each of its abilities and ensuring every possible use of the equipment has been considered, statted out and paid for?"  No, you don't.  We know a backpack holds things and makes them easier to carry.  If someone wants to empty out his backpack and hold it upside down to hold an air pocket for him when he tries to get through a flooded passageway, adjudicate that on the fly when it happens.

 

"Do you need to assess the game mechanics of common uses for equipment?"  Probably.  You need to decide whether, and how much, of a bonus a rope will give to Climbing, for example.  But these mechanics can also be decided as issues come up, and modified later if it turns out the original decision is not achieving the desired results.  As noted above, a +1 bonus is a lot in Hero.  Maybe the gut feel initial bonus was too much, so it gets scaled back later.  Maybe you ecide that having "really good equipment" is always a +1 bonus, "the best possible equipment" is always a +2 and any greater bonus requires customized/magical equipment that must be specially designed, statted out and either paid for in character points or acquired through game play (like a magic sword).  Setting a default such as that makes things a lot easier to adjudicate on the fly, and is a common tool in lots of RPG's (eg. in d20 Masterwork tools cost the same in money and grants the same bonus to any relevant skill).

 

My general bias is to weigh the importance of the issue to the game, and dedicate time and effort to its mechanics accordingly.  Does cinematic reality demand this be statted out?  Will it increase the drama of the game, or can we get by with a small dose of common sense?

[bluesguy]

I never write up common equipment.  If someone wants to do something kind of 'fun/crazy' with a piece of equipment then I take a guess.

 

For instance last night I was watching part of a Bourne movie.  The scene is where he is fighting another agent like himself.  That agent has a small knife and Bourne has nothing until he find a pen on the desk.  He then uses the pen as a weapon.

 

If this were  a game and Bourne was the PC I would tell them their Hand-to-Hand combat skills would apply and I would say the pen is a 1pt HKA -1 Stun Multiplier with a STR min of 8.  After that I let the rest of the game mechanics take over.  As neither Bourne nor the agent were wearing any armor that pen can be pretty dangerous - not as dangerous as a knife.

 

Or use their backpack like a club or shield.  Maybe give them +1d6 normal to their strength damage but make them track END since that is going to get tiring.

 

My players through me for a loop all the time when it comes to equipment or in Champions to stuff they find where the fight is taking place.  I can't begin to count how many times manhole covers have been used as metal frisbees or chain link fences used as 'straight jackets'.

[Kraven Kor]

Most equipment doesn't need stats, or even bonuses. It's simply the background dressing required for some skills (climbing equipment, lockpicks) or falls outside of the granularity and focus that the HERO rules provide (you don't really want to build pickaxes and shovels with Powers).

 

Actually, I'd think twice about any item that provides a bonus. The HERO granularity isn't too high, and a +1 bonus or +1 DC is a lot. We all know that the quality of most tools vary wildly, but is it enough to provide a bonus to a roll? I'd say that most professionals spend a rather large amount of time and money on stuff that wouldn't be reflected in HERO terms.

 

And it often means that magical bonuses have to be even higher, leading to bonus inflation.

 

Yeah; do an Auto Mechanic's tools provide a *bonus* to his roll?  Or simply allow him to actually make said roll, or maybe "not having tools" is a penalty, and good tools just makes it take less time.

 

I tend to do "standard equipment" as more of a Penalty Skill Level than as a straight bonus.

[NuSoardGraphite]

The equipment question is really two questions. 

 

"Do you need to build the equipment with points, carefully statting out each of its abilities and ensuring every possible use of the equipment has been considered, statted out and paid for?"  No, you don't.  We know a backpack holds things and makes them easier to carry.  If someone wants to empty out his backpack and hold it upside down to hold an air pocket for him when he tries to get through a flooded passageway, adjudicate that on the fly when it happens.

Agreed. most general equipment doesnt need to be statted up. we know sacks hlod objects, cloaks protect you from the rain and cold (life support: extreme cold....unnecessary!) and lockpicks...umm..pick locks.

 

"Do you need to assess the game mechanics of common uses for equipment?"  Probably.  You need to decide whether, and how much, of a bonus a rope will give to Climbing, for example.  But these mechanics can also be decided as issues come up, and modified later if it turns out the original decision is not achieving the desired results.  As noted above, a +1 bonus is a lot in Hero.  Maybe the gut feel initial bonus was too much, so it gets scaled back later.  Maybe you ecide that having "really good equipment" is always a +1 bonus, "the best possible equipment" is always a +2 and any greater bonus requires customized/magical equipment that must be specially designed, statted out and either paid for in character points or acquired through game play (like a magic sword).  Setting a default such as that makes things a lot easier to adjudicate on the fly, and is a common tool in lots of RPG's (eg. in d20 Masterwork tools cost the same in money and grants the same bonus to any relevant skill).

Agreed as well. i think it's prudent to figure out the bonuses/effects for very commonly used equipment before hand, because you know there is a high chance of an opportunity for that skill/equipment to be used in play, rope and climbing equipment being a good example.

 

And as you mentioned, you can assign bonuses as the situations come up during play. for example, the player of a theif character in one campaign wanted "stealthy clothes". a black cloak and clothing that would aid him in hiding in shadows, so the character found a clothier, payed a little extra for what he wanted and ended up with a set of clothes that gave him +1 to his stealth or concealment rolls to hide in darkness and shadows. i feel there's no need for the character to pay for that as it is simply equipment that helps the character facilitate their profession, just as armor helps the warrior in battles (and is worth far more than a mere +1 to stealth and is given out to everyone at no cp cost) 

 

My general bias is to weigh the importance of the issue to the game, and dedicate time and effort to its mechanics accordingly.  Does cinematic reality demand this be statted out?  Will it increase the drama of the game, or can we get by with a small dose of common sense?

Indeed. it should mostly fall to common sense with adjustgments for drama as appropriate. and it also depends on play style. in my games, i use a lot of bonuses and penalties for difficulty (ranging between +5 for routine skill use to -10 for attempting something nearly impossible) and bonuses from equipment are oftentimes necessary for characters to facilitate skill use under difficult circumstances. for example (to continue with the climbing example) people routinely climb sheer cliffs. i would give that a difficulty penalty of at least -5. expert climbers might be able to scale that cliff without gear (and some will try) but most climbers will want to use the gear, which gives a bonus of +3, reducing the climbing penalty to -2, which can still make the climb challenging for someone of average skill (11 or less, dropping to a 9 or less) in which case then the character can take extra time to climb the cliff and generate another +1 or +2 bonus and eliminate the penalty completely. using a combination of the difficulty with the bonuses that equipment provides makes the bonus more of a balancing factor.

[UbiquitousRat]

Or use their backpack like a club or shield.  Maybe give them +1d6 normal to their strength damage but make them track END since that is going to get tiring.

That reminds me of another (simple) rules clarification: when fighting, do you pay END for hitting folk?

[ghost-angel]

That reminds me of another (simple) rules clarification: when fighting, do you pay END for hitting folk?

 

You pay END once per Phase for any STR you use, and for any other Powers that add Damage that are not bought down to 0END (like a Hand Attack Power bought straight), and 1 END for Basic Maneuvers.

 

Martial Maneuvers you paid points for do not cost END.

Most objects, weapons, and related items are bought down to 0END and do not cost further END to use (like picking up a chair and clobbering someone with it).

[Kraven Kor]

You pay END once per Phase for any STR you use, and for any other Powers that add Damage that are not bought down to 0END (like a Hand Attack Power bought straight), and 1 END for Basic Maneuvers.

 

Martial Maneuvers you paid points for do not cost END.

Most objects, weapons, and related items are bought down to 0END and do not cost further END to use (like picking up a chair and clobbering someone with it).

 

Correction:  Martial Maneuvers you paid points for do not cost END *above the END paid for the STR used.*

 

Sorry if that was implied elsewhere or whatever; just wanted to be sure it was clear.

[ghost-angel]

Good clarification.

 

The Martial Maneuver Itself costs 0 END; STR used with it costs END. Theoretically you could use no extra STR and only do the damage the Maneuver adds.

[Greywind]

But you would still have to pay a minimum of 1 END for doing something.

[ghost-angel]

True that, the exception being actually buying Cost 0 END on your STR.

[UbiquitousRat]

So... "Yes", then.

[mhd]

Well, trying to hit folk, to be specific. Misses ain't a free lunch.

[UbiquitousRat]

And, in Heroic, it's 1 END per 5 STR... so, 18 STR costs 4 END? I know this sounds dim, but I want to be sure.

[Hyper-Man]

Yes, that is correct. 

 

And In a Superheroic 15 STR costs 1 END but 18 STR would cost 2 END.

[lou_tennant]

A small two penneth (from England) to add to some of this.

 

I would have to agree and disagree with comments posted so far, and will not get into large amounts of discussion on what, for the most part, is personal preference and application of the HERO ruleset.

 

However, from my own experiences starting with 3rd (JInc, DI, FH & Champions) thru to 5th, the group of players I have continued to game with regularly over this time all agree on three points about HERO. There is plenty we don't agree on and many things we have each (those that have GM'ed) house-ruled and/or used optional rules for.

 

We agree that:

1. Combat in HERO takes a lot longer (generally we agree _too_ long) than other systems. This is across all of the genres, though some are worse than others.
2. The greatest strength of HERO is that you can build anything, and we have built a lot over the years.
3. The greatest weakness of HERO is that you can build anything, and players do.

All 3 of these _can_ make running/playing HERO hard-work. Once you accept that it will take more effort than picking up another system such as D&D PHB and DMG and rolling some dice, you can be rewarded with something special, and potentially completely unique.

 

In terms of the time taken to run a combat there are ways to help with this - Hero Combat Manager (I have had a little look, but have heard good things) could be one thing. Our group has also toy'ed with a couple of house-rules to simplify a few areas (the SPD chart, for example) and therefore speed things up a little.

[Ndreare]

I would add if it is your first game you may want to ignore end rules until you get used to the basics.

[ghost-angel]

And, in Heroic, it's 1 END per 5 STR... so, 18 STR costs 4 END? I know this sounds dim, but I want to be sure.

 

Not dim, just a question from a new player. Keep on asking. We'll keep on answering (and sometimes arguing).

[Kraven Kor]

I will say that, for me, HERO combat *does not* take longer; it just appears to.

 

We always get "more stuff done" in a typical HERO session than in a comparable D20 session.  This is, however, partly due to me running a fairly "gritty" setting; NPC's generally don't keep fighting after a solid hit or two, whether KO'd or wounded, NPC's do not fight to the death in most cases, etc.  So you don't have NPC's taking 10-20 attacks before dropping.  I can run larger combats, especially, with much less hassle or time expenditure than trying to do so with D20.

 

Each individual action can, indeed, take longer (some actions more than others) but this has not been a consistent occurrence for me.  I can certainly do a HERO "phase" faster than a D&D "round" if comparing  a standard HERO attack to, say, casting a spell with its own individual rules / exceptions, saving throw, etc.  Working up an entangle with AOE: Explosion and 1 character in the area of effect with duplication and differing duplicates, sure, that's going to take a bit

 

Superhero fights, without the gritty wounding and hit locations and such, certainly can take longer (and perhaps *should* given that superheros are supposed to be able to take a beating.)

[bluesguy]

That reminds me of another (simple) rules clarification: when fighting, do you pay END for hitting folk?

My normal rule of thumb for Heroic games is that I help the players build characters that can do 1/2 moves and use full strength for at least two full turns before they pass out from the lack of END.  By doing that I can tell the characters that use STR based attacks that they don't need to track their END.

 

Spell casters in my last campaign and my new one will have to track END because magic is tiring.  My expectation is that a spell caster going all out (best defenses + best attacks) every phase will likely last 1 1/2 turns before passing out.

 

I have also run Heroic games where no one needed to track END unless they pushed.

 

My recommendation for you is that you DO NOT track END during combat.  There will be plenty for everyone to learn that tracking END would be a real turnoff for players in the beginning.

[Kraven Kor]

I also tend to not use END tracking for new players until they are getting the hang of the basics, at the least.

[ghost-angel]

The biggest drag on Combat in Hero I've seen is Option Overload ... player's unable to decided between the many maneuvers and powers at their disposal.

 

Beyond that, combat itself is no slower than any other system I've played.

[Kraven Kor]

Yeah, again I've ran combats with dozens of NPC's and all "by the book" and can get through all my NPC actions in a few minutes so long as it is all just standard attacks and such.

 

It only bogs down - for me and my group - if there is the need for a clarification to the player, they can't decide what to do, or there is just a lot of :math: to do as part of a more complicated action.  Some of my players also just cannot grasp how to quickly add up totals (I can roll 30d6 and have it totaled up in seconds; an acquired skill more than any mathematical genius on my part.)