Why run Hero 6th?

[Kraven Kor]

Well I have found teenagers learn the rules faster and are less intimidated by changes.

My nephew and his friends have been allowed to play with us since they turned 16 (now 18+) and they are easy more opened minded than people my own age (35).

 

Indeed.

 

Many gamers are also always most fond of the first game system / edition they played, even if they do admit and understand its faults.

[bluesguy]

I taught three teenagers how to play Hero Game system.  Two had never played any Tabletop RPGs and the third was use to play D&D variants.  Everyone is happy with Hero.

[Greywind]

The scary ones are the ones whose only interaction with an RPG was a video game. "We run around in circles until we meet something."

[bluesguy]

The scary ones are the ones whose only interaction with an RPG was a video game. "We run around in circles until we meet something."

 

LOL... My kids played Balder's Gate prior to playing tabletop RPG.  It didn't take long for them to get use to playing tabletop RPG. 

[Spence]

Right... So, you got me playing HERO. You got me converting my regular group's fantasy game. All good.

 

Next development: Would introducing HERO to teenage RPG newbies at the school club be a good idea? What would be different?

 

The big thing IMO is that you remember that Hero is fully scalable. 

 

A lot of people have given great advice.  But that is what it is advice. 

 

In this thread there have been extensive posts about probabilities and the finer nuances of probabilities and such.   I have never gave them a passing thought since I was war-gaming in the late 70's. 

 

I have run successful and great Fantasy Hero games where the only rules difference from Champions was using Knockdown instead off Knockback.  

 

In D&D Armor Class is just an abstract of everything that protects the PC (Armor, Dex, magic etc.).   An Attack Roll is just the abstract of the probability of inflicting damage during an exchange of blows with an enemy.  The Attack Roll does not represent one stroke, it represents multiple strokes.  Hit Points are an abstract of how must punishment a PC can take (physical damage, mental shock and will to fight).

 

In Hero there is no need to go too deep.  I have run armor as an all inclusive Def.   You are wearing Leather Armor and it give you a X Def versus physical attacks.   I used the OLD random stun multiplier of 1D6-1 no minimum instead of the current one 1D6-1 with a minimum of 1.    This simulated a person taking physical damage (Body) but not realizing it (No Stun), which was not uncommon on the battlefield.

 

To introduce kids to the game I would start with a few pre-gens of common archetypes with a stripped character sheet and run a very cinematic game.  Think Diablo or Skyrim'ish.  

 

Once they get their teeth into it they will most likely surprise you.  When allowed to do so, school kids are pretty damn smart and will make builds you never thought of.

[UbiquitousRat]

Tomorrow night's the game. Wish me luck!

[lemming]

Luck!

[Lucius]

Tomorrow night's the game. Wish me luck!

 

3d6 Luck!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary hides the Unluck dice

[bluesguy]

Good luck...

[UbiquitousRat]

Feedback time! Session #1 with HERO was cool.

 

Two players (the most enthusiastic one, and the slowest learning one) were able to make it. This was actually a boon because I was able to focus on just teaching the game rules.

 

We ran Umbar and Jon versus six Mountain Goblins (slightly tweaked Goblins from Bestiary). They minced them in two Turns, but got to try out their weapons and powers.

 

We also ran Umbar and Jon versus a Mountain Ogre (the Ogre from Bestiary), which lasted for 1 Turn.

 

At the end of the combat, small tweaks were made to both characters to optimise CON and boost key fighting abilities for each. The fact that the guys made those tweaks was very encouraging.

 

First combat was slow as we learned the rules. Quite a few look-ups, but no more than a regular "learning" session with other games, eg. equivalent to when we learned D&D 3e/4e. Second fight was over inside about 15 mins.

 

Everyone agrees that the HERO versions of the characters are VERY much more powerful than previous OSR-inspired home rules. But... they enjoyed that, and revealed their true desire to mash things.

 

Learning for me was two-fold:

 

1. I might need to either use a LOT of Goblins, include Power-using Goblins, or soup up the basic Goblin. A combo of numbers and "boss" Goblins with Powers is probably appropriate. Ogre needed either support or beefing up as a "boss" challenge.

 

2. I need to decide on upper-limits for things, such as OCV/DCV, Active Points, et al because my guys will need boundaries once they earn more XP. Advice welcome.

 

As GM, it was quite a blast seeing the guys excitedly battling minions. It was easier to administer, although I think I need a "boxes sheet" for tracking BODY, STUN, and END for creatures.

 

One innovation that was welcomed was my creation of crib-cards for the Priest's Miracles, basically summarising the power and guiding the player on how it rolls. They asked for Weapon Cards too, outlining the stats without the HERO notations. Easy to do, methinks.

 

Thanks to all for advice thus far... now to build a proper adventure session AND win over the other three players next session.

 

Game on!

[dmjalund]

I think increasing the number of goblins can have a noteable impact on balance of power

[bluesguy]

That is awesome news.  Congrats. 

 

 

It was easier to administer, although I think I need a "boxes sheet" for tracking BODY, STUN, and END for creatures.

 

What I have done in the past was to create a sheet with boxes for all the baddies.  The put the sheet into a plastic sleeve and use marker to update the sheet.

 

Warning Shameless Plug  I stopped doing because I wrote Hero Combat Manager to help run the combat.

 

 

One innovation that was welcomed was my creation of crib-cards for the Priest's Miracles, basically summarizing the power and guiding the player on how it rolls. They asked for Weapon Cards too, outlining the stats without the HERO notations.

 

This is an excellent idea. 

 

Campaign Norms:  You definitely need to come up with campaign norms.  When I was running my Valdorian Age campaign I posted the following norms for the players.  You can find the information here https://valdorian-age-rising-power-on-the-frontier.obsidianportal.com/wikis/characteristics-and-skill-rules

[UbiquitousRat]

Thanks for the comments and link, bluesguy!

 

What I have done in the past was to create a sheet with boxes for all the baddies.  The put the sheet into a plastic sleeve and use marker to update the sheet.

 

Warning Shameless Plug  I stopped doing because I wrote Hero Combat Manager to help run the combat.

Yeah, I own the Combat Tracker. Playing with it solo, however, it took longer to resolve actions than doing it manually. Paper is quicker, it seems. :-) At least until the tool allows me to click a weapon / power and just apply it as an attack. Besides, doing things manually means I can learn the rules better anyhow.

[UbiquitousRat]

Am thinking that Goblins with Teamwork will be nasty...

[bluesguy]

Yeah, I own the Combat Tracker. Playing with it solo, however, it took longer to resolve actions than doing it manually. Paper is quicker, it seems. :-)

 

For some folks that can be true.  Depends on how many players and NPCs you have as well.

 

 

At least until the tool allows me to click a weapon / power and just apply it as an attack.

 

That is one of the feature requests.  I don't know when it will be implemented.

 

 

Besides, doing things manually means I can learn the rules better anyhow.

 

Absolutely true!

[NuSoardGraphite]

Feedback time! Session #1 with HERO was cool.

Two players (the most enthusiastic one, and the slowest learning one) were able to make it. This was actually a boon because I was able to focus on just teaching the game rules.

We ran Umbar and Jon versus six Mountain Goblins (slightly tweaked Goblins from Bestiary). They minced them in two Turns, but got to try out their weapons and powers.

We also ran Umbar and Jon versus a Mountain Ogre (the Ogre from Bestiary), which lasted for 1 Turn.

At the end of the combat, small tweaks were made to both characters to optimise CON and boost key fighting abilities for each. The fact that the guys made those tweaks was very encouraging.

First combat was slow as we learned the rules. Quite a few look-ups, but no more than a regular "learning" session with other games, eg. equivalent to when we learned D&D 3e/4e. Second fight was over inside about 15 mins.

Everyone agrees that the HERO versions of the characters are VERY much more powerful than previous OSR-inspired home rules. But... they enjoyed that, and revealed their true desire to mash things.

Sounds like a fun gaming session. the big thing is, if the players can have fun while they're learning the game, chances are pretty darned good they'll come back.

Learning for me was two-fold:

1. I might need to either use a LOT of Goblins, include Power-using Goblins, or soup up the basic Goblin. A combo of numbers and "boss" Goblins with Powers is probably appropriate. Ogre needed either support or beefing up as a "boss" challenge.

It is IMO as a GM, that goblins should never be a significant challenge for characters of 150pts or higher. they are a nusiance designed to be thrown at the characters in large numbers, so the PC's can mow them down by the dozens and feel really badass. if you really feel like you want to make goblins a challenge for your characters, simply remember that goblins are moderately intelligent creatures. while not as intelligent as humans and elves on average, they are certainly smarter than the smartest dogs and other animals, so they understand tactics, advanced tool use and can use teamwork to take down tough foes. You dont need to change their stats much at all. put them in better armor and give them better weapons and they'll be a lot more dangerous. and just a bit of combat training, like movement in armor levels and a few 2pt CSL's with their favored weapon, will make them a lot more dangerous. but again, i reiterate, that goblins arent meant to be a REAL threat to PCs.

 

2. I need to decide on upper-limits for things, such as OCV/DCV, Active Points, et al because my guys will need boundaries once they earn more XP. Advice welcome.

It is my advice that you don't limit general CV itself. you limit the attributes that add to combat value. limit characteristics (normal characteristic maxima with an absolute characteristic maxima of 25 which is CV 8) and limit combat skill levels to no more than +5 per application. thus a character with enough CSL's could add +5 to OCV, +5 to DCV, and +5 to damage class. (That would take a total of 20 combat skill levels in total!) you can still generate very high combat values with this method, but your averages will be much lower and your combat oriented characters will have plenty of room to grow without hitting the cap right after character creation.

 

This way a character wont hit the combat value cap with dex and skill levels alone and the cv bonuses from martial skills, situational modifiers and complimentry skills (like acrobatics or contortions rolls for a drunkin stylist) and talents arent wasted. if they were, your players would question why they would spend their point for those bonuses when they cant use them (and rightly so)

 

As GM, it was quite a blast seeing the guys excitedly battling minions. It was easier to administer, although I think I need a "boxes sheet" for tracking BODY, STUN, and END for creatures.

One innovation that was welcomed was my creation of crib-cards for the Priest's Miracles, basically summarising the power and guiding the player on how it rolls. They asked for Weapon Cards too, outlining the stats without the HERO notations. Easy to do, methinks.

Thanks to all for advice thus far... now to build a proper adventure session AND win over the other three players next session.

Game on!

Sounds like it was a hit. what optional rules were you using for combat? hit locations? sectional armor? impairing/disabling? you activate some of those options and combat will become a bit more challening for everyone involved.

[Tasha]

Fighting minions, aka Trash Mobs. If your PC's are fighting a bunch of minor opponents that are meant to be speed bumps. One thing you can do to save on time. You define the minions as One Shot, or 2 Shot opponents. On an average damage roll by the player that counts as a "shot". Once the minion has taken enough shots, they are out of the combat. It's just a make the GM's life easier method. Oh if the PC rolls insane damage I count that as 2 shots or more.

[IndianaJoe3]

Fighting minions, aka Trash Mobs. If your PC's are fighting a bunch of minor opponents that are meant to be speed bumps. One thing you can do to save on time. You define the minions as One Shot, or 2 Shot opponents. On an average damage roll by the player that counts as a "shot". Once the minion has taken enough shots, they are out of the combat. It's just a make the GM's life easier method. Oh if the PC rolls insane damage I count that as 2 shots or more.

 

If you prefer a more by-the-book method, give the minions a couple of extra points of Reistant Defence but reduce their BODY to only 1 or 3. Poor damage rolls can be described as minor wounds, but any solid hit will take it out.

[UbiquitousRat]

Thanks for the comments, guys... although it sounds like NuSoardGraphite is referring to pre-6e with those figured CV tips...? What are movement in armour levels?

 

The guys used vanilla HERO combat, really, on Friday. We got to tracking END, which was ok.

 

Am thinking of using Hit Locations, which make things deadlier, as they tend to like the addition of details. That said, I'm shying away from anything I can't easily track using HD, so sectional armour is probably a no. Other options may come with time, but I to want keep things relatively simple for starters.

 

Have made some natty weapon cards, which outline the damage at levels of STR above the STR Min, plus the max damage in the case of items like Daggers and Shortswords (having discovered the max is 2x base DC). These also revealed that HD does not accurately list the damage from additional STR on character sheets, so I am glad I did them on several levels.

 

I have a question regarding Skill Levels: the +1 Overall applies to Skill and Characteristic rolls; am I correct to assume that's only Char rolls that are using the basic 6 Char Roll numbers, and excludes things like CV rolls?

 

Today I am mostly outlining adventure obstacles...

[Hyper-Man]

Overall Skill Levels can be applied to virtually anything including combat like an All Combat Skill Level.

A major difference between the 12 point Overall Level and the 10 point All Combat Skill Level is that only the former can be used with the Dive for Cover maneuver (which is a DEX based vs. Combat Value based roll).

 

About the only things they can't be used towards are Skills purchased at the 1 point Familiarity level and Cramming (a sort of universal familiarity).

[Tasha]

If you prefer a more by-the-book method, give the minions a couple of extra points of Reistant Defence but reduce their BODY to only 1 or 3. Poor damage rolls can be described as minor wounds, but any solid hit will take it out.

6e2 pg 120 One Hit Wonders:

Gamemasters using this option don’t worry about the exact STUN and BODY a minor enemy has — they simply decide how many hits it takes to kill him. The weakest are one-hit wonders: a single successful Attack Roll against them kills them. Stronger foes require more, or better, hits. For example, a two-hit foe takes two successful Attack Rolls to kill, or only a single Attack Roll that’s made by 2 or more; a three-hit foe needs three hits, or one hit made by 3 or more; and so on. To disguise what he’s doing, the GM should still have the players roll damage dice; if a character gets an especially good roll, the GM may treat that as the equivalent of having made the Attack Roll by 1 or 2 points more.

 

It's been a part of the official rules forever. Mostly used in LARGE combats where you really don't want to be dealing with 20+ minions.

 

I don't think it made into Champions Complete   Perhaps if they do a Fantasy Hero Complete it will appear there.

[Spence]

I don't think it made into Champions Complete   Perhaps if they do a Fantasy Hero Complete it will appear there.

 

It was in Heroic advice/options.    Not something generally thought to be necessary in a Supers game, but of much use in a FH game. 

[NuSoardGraphite]

Thanks for the comments, guys... although it sounds like NuSoardGraphite is referring to pre-6e with those figured CV tips...?

Yes i was, sorry about that. i spent the last couple of days thinking specifically in the 5th edition format for another post, and my brain was still there. i myself still use 5th, so i naturally default to that and i posted my tip ithout even considering 6th vs 5th.

 

In which case, my advice still stands. don't limit total CV, limit the characteristic value. i would recommend between 7 and 10 depending on how high you want CV's to go and allow, skill levels, martial maneuvers and talents to stack on top of this.

 

What are movement in armour levels?

A specialized type of combat skill level or penalty skill level that removes the DCV and/or DEX penalty that is due to the encumbrance penalty from wearing heavy armor.

 

The guys used vanilla HERO combat, really, on Friday. We got to tracking END, which was ok.

Am thinking of using Hit Locations, which make things deadlier, as they tend to like the addition of details. That said, I'm shying away from anything I can't easily track using HD, so sectional armour is probably a no. Other options may come with time, but I to want keep things relatively simple for starters.

I would recommend introducing things slowly. first add hit locations, then other options you want to try such as impairing/disabling.

 

Have made some natty weapon cards, which outline the damage at levels of STR above the STR Min, plus the max damage in the case of items like Daggers and Shortswords (having discovered the max is 2x base DC). These also revealed that HD does not accurately list the damage from additional STR on character sheets, so I am glad I did them on several levels.

I have a question regarding Skill Levels: the +1 Overall applies to Skill and Characteristic rolls; am I correct to assume that's only Char rolls that are using the basic 6 Char Roll numbers, and excludes things like CV rolls?

As stated, overall levels can add to anything that can benefit from a skill level. that includes:

Characteristic rolls

Skill rolls

Background skills

Perception rolls

Combat (acts as a normal combat skill level)

Movement (acts as a movement skill level)

And with gm's option/permission:

Activation roll

Breakout roll

 

Overall skill levels can be quite powerful. i suggest not allowing characters to begin the game with them, but allow them to purchase new ones or upgrade current skill levels into overall skill levels during game play.

 

Many hero players have felt that overall skill levels are too expensive. i personally think those people either played in games where skills werent very important or they didnt really understand everything that overall levels can effect. be careful when allowing them into your game.

[UbiquitousRat]

The overall skill level comes from a Priest's "blessing" power, so was just checking. Thanks!

 

I need to research the Enc rules for armour, I guess. Urgh. Dislike encumbrance. :-)

 

Thanks, guys!

[NuSoardGraphite]

The overall skill level comes from a Priest's "blessing" power, so was just checking. Thanks!

Overall skill levels are perfect for representing a general blessing spell.

I need to research the Enc rules for armour, I guess. Urgh. Dislike encumbrance. :-)

Thanks, guys!

Encumbrance in hero is super easy compared to other rpgs. usually you count the weight of the armor, weapons and othe heavy objects the character is carrying, then compare that to the encumbrance chart and that will give you the current DCV/DEX penalty. many groups just use it based on the armors weight as an indication of how tough it is to maneuver in that type of armor. it can be an excellent balancing factor for characters who like to wear heavy armor....you can do so, but it will negatively effect your DCV to the point you are likely to be hit quite a bit more often in combat, so while you can take harder hits, the stun damage will eventually wear you down, so then characters have to choose between lesser armor for higher DCV, but risk being taken out by a singl lucky strike, or going with higher defense and risk being hit more often....