Pre-Pole Roundup:Comic Book Middleweights

[Superskrull]

Hey, if we're going to dip into the Golden Age era, I'd nominate Atom. He's a nasty little bugger, especially in those recent flashback stories of the 90s on.

Others come to mind with not enough screen time to really judge if they squeak past the middleweight and ease into the heavyweight bracket.

DC (but secretly Charlton in disguise)

Judomaster (pre-LAW miniseries- that story killed brain cells)

Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt (though he seemed to slip into the paranormal range later on)

The Question

Blue Beetle (no really!)

 

Marvel

The Sons of the Tiger (they were good, not Shang Chi good, but good)

Crossbones (before he got dead)

Diamondback (after her Supersoldier blood transfusion & additional training)

The Bengal (obscure revenge-motivated guy, easy handled fighting Night Thrasher & Daredevil in seperate encounters)

The Steel Serpent (Davos can put the fear into Iron Fist)

The Cat (mercenary foe of Shang Chi)

Midnight (pre-cyborg conversion by the Kree )

Zaran I & II

Ka-Zar

 

Independents

Grimjack

Badger

Riley Thorp

The Hodag

Demon

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (the old B&W Eastman/Laird ones)

The Shredder

Cat & Mouse

 

and 'cause I'm a wierdo who obsessed over cruddy B&W comics

Greater Mercury/Silverwolf universe

Grips

Dark Assassin

Chance

Edge

Dragonmaster

Psycho-Path

Vengeance

 

I'm blanking on any Image martial artists who didn't pack superpowers or get their heads handed to them on a continual basis.

 

Then there's the mook contingent. Hard to figure out the difference sometimes between the rank and file of the Hand, the Chaste, the Coda, the Si-Fan, th League of Assassins or any other redshirt level fighters with those who got a cover issue and a swift beating in the pages of whatever comic they popped up in, y'know?

[Superskrull]

Originally posted by Speedball

Elektra? I seem to recall a couple of fights between her and DD (and No, I'm not referencing the movie, for God's sake) that were draws.

 

I think he's out of the "middleweight" category, but how about The Midnighter from "The Authority?" Someone in the book (can't remember who) called him "the most dangerous person alive."

 

Nah. Midnighter is metahuman in physical abilities with some kind of built-in fight computer in his head, backup organs and other niftykeen off-the-cuff 'by the way' powers. Apparently he had been designed with the superpower of kicking mighty ass thanks to Weatherman of Stormwatch who cobbled together a whole team of wanna-be JLA guys. Sad how all but those two got slaughtered and wasted all those UN blackops dollars. Still, 'Use once & throw away' seemed to be the theme in some of those Ellis Stormwatch stories.

[assault]

Originally posted by Agent Escafarc

Wasn't Ted Grant(Wildcat) Heavyweight Champion of the World. And his age wouldn't be a factor since he hasn't really aged in the past 30yrs do to several reasons including the resant "9-lives" thing they are doing in current JSA issues

 

Yeah, Ted was Heavyweight Champion of the world, but I think we should be more interested in comparative toughness rather than just body mass here. Otherwise things could get very odd real fast.

 

In support of Ted's capabilities, though, here are some quotes from Catwoman #20 (August this year):

 

1. Selina: "This is Ted Grant. He was one of the people who trained me..."

 

2. Holly (Selina's sidekick): "What about Green Arrow, did you train him?"

Ted: "Ha. He wishes."

Holly: "But Batman? You trained him?"

Ted: "Sure... a long time back..."

 

And just for fun, here is another reason to like Ted Grant - his attitude:

"It's hard sometimes to see the good in the little things. You save one person but another dies. Isn't it still worth doing even if you can't save them both?"

 

Isn't that a lovely solution to the four-colour vs. "grim and gritty" dilemma? I think if I ever play in a street-level superheroic game, my character might go with that kind of attitude. It would mix quite explosively with the usual psycho-killers.

 

Come to think of it, it's probably at the heart of Assault's attitude in higher powered four-colour games...

 

Yes, I like Wildcat. I'll probably vote for him when the poll goes up.

 

Alan.

[Chuckg]

As for the Midnighter -- ummmm, going on published abilities, this guy could rip off Captain America's head... and Batman's head... and Lady Shiva's head... and Batgirl III's head... and, well, pretty much *ANYBODY's* head short of guys like Val Armorr.

 

Having strength in the Spider-Man range, speed in the 'makes Cap look like a turtle' range, and a super-gazillion combat super-computer in his head that lets him predict his opponent's moves a million ways over before anybody else gets to twitch a synapse... ummm, the Midnighter might have all the characterization depth of a mud puddle, the likeability of [censored] in a paper bag, and be generally annoying besides, but on pure combat stats he's absolutely ludicrous. *Definitely* not a 'middleweight'.

 

About the only time I've ever seen the Midnighter trashed is when going up against something in the Gray Hulk's range, or when his combat bionics were temporarily disabled.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Chuckg

As for the Midnighter -- ummmm, going on published abilities, this guy could rip off Captain America's head... and Batman's head... and Lady Shiva's head... and Batgirl III's head... and, well, pretty much *ANYBODY's* head short of guys like Val Armorr.

 

Having strength in the Spider-Man range, speed in the 'makes Cap look like a turtle' range, and a super-gazillion combat super-computer in his head that lets him predict his opponent's moves a million ways over before anybody else gets to twitch a synapse... ummm, the Midnighter might have all the characterization depth of a mud puddle, the likeability of [censored] in a paper bag, and be generally annoying besides, but on pure combat stats he's absolutely ludicrous. *Definitely* not a 'middleweight'.

 

About the only time I've ever seen the Midnighter trashed is when going up against something in the Gray Hulk's range, or when his combat bionics were temporarily disabled.

 

"Quick Robin! Get me the bat-grey-hulk!"

 

TV Batman wins again. Its the same way he beats Norse Storm Hammer Guy:

 

"Quick Robin! Get me the Bata-Ray-Bill!"

 

Gawd! I want that utility belt.

[Twilight]

Re: More Golden Oldies

 

Originally posted by Kevin Scrivner

What about some of the older guys, older as in Golden Age? I'd add Lee Falk's The Phantom and the Blue Beetle to the enlistment rolls. Radio's Green Hornet relied on his gas gun but could throw a mean punch, too. Heroes such as Spy Smasher and the Masked Marvel are probably too obscure but would fit this category. And JSA's Dollman was essentially a pugilist with a shrinking schtick.

 

Hey if we're gonna let Green Hornet in, we can't forget to mention his partner Kato. He may only have been a sidekick but he whupped major ass, especially when played by Bruce Lee. For that matter we should probably let guys like James Bond, Doc Savage and the Lone Ranger in as well. Not technically superheroes, but they all could mix it up with the fisticuffs, even though Bond and the Ranger relied on guns more often.

[Crimson Arrow]

If we're not confined to "living" characters, what about Hector Ayala, The White Tiger? He was a pretty good martial artist. I think he might have has low-level super-strength, but Iron Fist's punch is clearly a superpower (yes, I know it's chi-based, but still a power).

[topcapfan]

Cat & Mouse

 

Superskrull said. . .

 

Independents

Grimjack

Badger

Riley Thorp

The Hodag

Demon

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (the old B&W Eastman/Laird ones)

The Shredder

Cat & Mouse

 

Which caught my attention since I loved the Cat & Mouse comic book. Has Superskrull or anyone else here seen write-ups for those characters?

[Eyendasky80]

Originally posted by Chuckg

> > Wolverine? (would he go in here?)

 

With that Regeneration? And that obnoxious Damage Reduction? Wolverine is a guy that Captain America and Batman would need heavy Foci to do effective damage to, and that's if Logan voluntarily took DCV 0.

 

It didn't use to be that bad, admitted, but ever since the 90's Logan's healing factor has been somewhere between ridiculous and ludicrous.

 

(I'm not even going to touch the argument about where Logan's skill level is, because I don't need to. When you are effectively impossible to damage with the unaided human hand, *and* can ignore most NND Nerve Strikes and Choke Holds and other such maneuvers, you pretty much win any pure martial arts battle you enter unless it's against people like Val Armorr, or unless the other guy is bringing something with which to gas, blind, stun, or electrocute you with.)

 

Actually, in a recent issue of Punisher, DD subdued a berzerk wolverine with a shot to the throat. No lie, but Ennis is notoriously disdainful of "super-powered" characters and even said somewhere in that story arc that Daredevil, being the least powerful was the most dangerous. But debunking the Ennis hates superheroes defense is easy enough by saying: the editors let it fly so it must be possible. So I'd have to say that Wolverine is susceptible to NND and Choke, but he usually uses his martial training and lethal attacks to avoid it. In non-lethal combat or when he goes completely berserk, he becomes open to skilled attacks.

[drrushing]

I agree with D-Man's assessment. The one thing that isn't addressed is the environment. A lot of these characters, middleweights, that is, are at their best when using their environment to their advantage. Think Nightwing escaping Deathstroke in the Judas Contract---I think that was the name. Also, Daredevil and Iron Fist have met, and almost fought. Daredevil didn't have time to confront Iron Fist, and jumped, swung, flipped his way up a building leaving Iron Fist behind. I think Iron Fist's replay was something like "That's not fair". So whomever is included in the final poll, how much of their indivdual fighting styles are incorporated? In a straight up gladiator style fight, the winner would probably be the best MA. Probably Nightwing.

[Doug McCrae]

The Watchmen fighters -

 

The Comedian

Rorshach

Ozymandias

 

The late Ozymandias is in a class way above the other two, though, probably not a 'middleweight'. He can catch bullets for God's sake!

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Starlord

I seem to remember Batman admitting Nightwing is a better 'leader' than he is, but I can't see him being the better fighter. Probably more agile, though.

I guess those Warlords of Okaara who trained him aren't quite what they're cracked up to be.

[Ranxerox]

Uhh, folks. I actually ran my middleweights pole a while back. As I recall, Nightwing won it though this may be because the Marvel vote was split in too many directions with Daredevil, IronFist and Shang Chi all competing.

 

If someone want to run their own middleweight pole with their own field of candidates that would certainly be fine. I'm not trying to fill out my roster anymore though.